Yeah I know I spelled plane wrong. That’s the idea…
I would love to be able to know what I’m doing with a plane. Notice I didn’t say “hand” plane, because the level of my confusion about planes is such that I’m not even sure if that’s what they’re ALL called in the first place. Go to any good online woodworking store, take Lie Nielsen as an example, and they have about 60 different planes for sale, derivations of about 20 types (I’m guessing).
How the heck are you supposed to know which ones do what, without a year of apprenticeship? Do 20 differnt planes do 20 different specific jobs that can be done with 4 power tools? If I own 50 planes, will I always be lacking one that does what I need on some new project?
I’m getting pretty good at sharpening my chisels, and I think I could handle a plane blade, but where do I start? Should I get the #1,462 low-angle adjustable mouth hand-jointing smoothing plane, or is the #1,463 a better choice?
Do I ever need to learn how to use a plane anyway, beyond just the intimate spiritual “feel of the wood”, etc…?
Help!
Kevin
Replies
If you never experience working with a hand plane, you are missing out. And, like clamps, you can never have too many planes. There are a lot of books which will describe the useful application of hand tools, and the caring for same. I cannot be specific from where this is being written, but will yield to others who likely have those references at hand. I recall there are a lot of old threads on this issue, it they were not lost when they adopted this new format for Knots. Good Luck
let me jump in here, if i may. i have just decided to remove the paint from 5 old doors ( c.1940) that are beautiful chestnut. i am thinking that i could use a plane to remove a good deal of the paint. better than chemical stripper. what kind of plane would you recommend????? thanks
In my opinion nothing removes paint better than a chemical stripper. But if you are going to use a plane it would have to be a scraper plane, like a Stanley No. 80 ( I think that's the right number).
yes, but wouldn't a planer be safer, and less messy??????
A plane is safer. If you are dealing with chemicals you have to have the proper equipment. Since you mentioned you are doing doors, I assume they have some moldings; a plane won't help you there.
Old paint is hard and abrasive. It will quickly dull your plane blade. If you want to do it at all, you should really consider a chemical stripper.
However, here is another thought. If it's old paint, it will contain lead. That presents disposal problems if you want to obey the law. Using a plane or a scraper will product dust which is the most dangerous problem with lead. Chemical strippers actually are preferred for removing lead containing paint but you still have the disposal problem. You might want to consider taking the doors to a place that strips furniture and let them deal with it. Unless the lead is completely removed from the surface and pores (difficult with and open pored wood like ash) you will have sanding dust that is contaminated.
A chemical stripper is called for to remove old paint. I'd reserve a plane for dressing lumber. The paint dust could be toxic, as has been pointed out, so I'd wear some breathing protection and wash the clothes you wear and shower immediately following. I'd do as little as possible to Chestnut doors, especially if they are vintage and NOT "wormy" chestnut. They may be more valuable to a restorer than you can imagine. I'd stop short of recommending you use a heavy duty scraper to help get the paint off, as they can gouge that moderately soft material too easily. Good Luck, take care and go slow.
For old planes on Ebay, check here http://listings.ebay.com/pool1/listings/list/all/category13849/index.html?from=R0
then search "in titles & descriptions" for plane*. You might refine it further and search only in the Tools group of furnishings & tools. There is a more general group of tools "upstream from the "collectibles" group.
Before you jump into handplanes, I'd repeat my often mentioned suggestion that you get a copy of "Restoring, Tuning & Using Classic Woodworking Tools" by Michael Dunbar. A good mix of great information from one who not only talks the talk, but walks the walk as well. He doesn't use his wordprocessor to make virtual sawdust. Try this place to search for a copy-http://www.abebooks.com/
John in middle Tennessee
Edited 1/22/2003 8:19:42 PM ET by TAILSORPINS
Suzyt, I have used planes to remove paint from wood (reclaiming boards from an old porch). I have to agree with everything said here by Ben_M and Howie.
The paint is hard on the plane blades. If you do it, use a rough plane and expect to sharpen frequently; I used a rough wood-body plane that I would describe as a scrub plane with a nearly-flat blade. This in turn was hard on the wood surface. Also, wear safety glasses because a lot of the paint chipped off and flew up and everywhere. Painful. Also messy, I was sweeping those up for a week. There was 50 years of paint being taken off, let me say there were no shavings being made.
I did this because it was a lark. I did not much care about the condition of the wood, it was construction grade (though from an earlier age) and had little value for me except not to waste it entirely. I was certainly not interested enough to consider using paint stripper on it. Some of the boards I had already used for other things with paint still in place. Also, this was all flat wood with no moulding or panel raising, so fairly easy.
I think your situation with the doors is much different, you want to keep them in nice condition and re-use them beautiful. In that case you would want to be much more careful with the wood than I was. Possible to do with planes but I personally would consider using the paint stripper.
Best,
Chris.
Oh, yes, as Matt pointed out, there is still paint (and grooves) on the sole of that plane. I suppose I could use stripper on the plane to remove that paint...
Edited 1/23/2003 9:49:08 AM ET by WATEREN
Kevin,
Over 20 years ago I went shopping for a 6" jointer. Ended up bring home a new Record #7 and some water stones.....The #7 will do most things other bench planes are designed to do, it will even do an okay job on end-grain. I now have several planes. If one of my sons ask me for an all around plane for their wood shop I'd help them tune up #7 or 8 I've got out in the shop that someone gave me..........Dale
PS finally purchased a 16" jointer , I'm glad I passed on the 6 incher, you know what they say, bigger is better, ; ' >
You can get a lot of good information at a really reasonable price from The Handplane Book by Garrett Hack, available from Taunton Press and fine bookstores everywhere.
Kevin, the reason there are so many planes around is because they are modeled after ones that were being produced before powertools were widely available to woodworkers. I just got interested in planes a little while ago, and I'm no expert, but I'll try to give a brief explanation as to why there are so many different styles of planes. first of all, in the old days all lumber had to be dimensioned by hand, and in order to do that you'd use a scrub plane, followed by a jack, jointer and smoothing plane. you could get by with just a jack plane, but planes that were tuned up for a specific task would be more efficient. then you have a huge variety of specialty planes, such as shoulder and rabbet planes, scraper planes, dado planes, and then there are countless numbers of molding planes, and remember that before shapers and routers were around, put one molding plane in place of every router bit and shaper cutter you have, and you can see how it is possible to have a massive collection of planes.
if you want some good info on handplanes go to http://www.supertool.com/index.htm for all the info you could ever want on handplanes. be prepared to spend a while reading through everything though.
you'll find that some planes capabilities overlap, but the same is true with powertools. yes it is true that powertools can do the work of a plane much faster, and I personally use a combination of hand and powertools, but the one area that a plane is superior is that when properly tuned, it leaves a finished surface no powertool can match. that means no sanding and none of the dust that comes with it, although there are sometimes when sandpaper is the only option.
The 2 most basic planes I would recommend for starters are a block plane and a jack plane. these will take care of most basic planing tasks, and allow you to work on your technique. when you buy a plane, do yourself a favor and buy a good quality one (veritas, lie-neilsen etc.) as they will produce excellent results with little to no tuning up. I find that being able to use hand and powertools makes me more efficient when woodworking, so if you want to keep advancing in the world of woodworking you'll need to learn how to use a handplane.
hope this helps
andrew
Well, it's much like many other things, you just jump in and start learning! I don't know a great deal about all of the different types, have only used jack, jointer, and multi, planes. At one time, I knew EVEN LESS than I do now - but bought a Record jack plane, #5 I think, and having read a little about different types, and having taken woodshop in high school (20 yrs. ago), I figured out how to use it relatively well. Bought a #7 and just used it. I think it's probably different for everybody, but through practice you do get better, and you have those "moments of clarity" when you can almost "feel" what's going on where the blade meets the wood.
My suggestion, for what it's worth - get something basic & relatively inexpensive (like a Record #5!), and learn by doing. Learn how to sharpen the blade, and tune the tool. Repeat the doing & sharpening over & over - you'll get pretty good. Maybe a project will come up that will "require" a rabbet - good excuse to buy & learn another tool!
I believe knowing how to use a handplane & keep it sharp will make you a better woodworker. Sometimes it makes you more efficient even.
What kind of woodworking do you do? That will narrow down your choices. But as stated previously, start with a block plane and a #4 or #5 bench plane. I would recommend at least one premium plane, like a L-N, so you know what a plane is capable of doing and what a properly tuned plane looks like.
Hi Kevin,
I think you already have some pretty good advice, but I’ll put my 2¢'s in anyway. I’ve been building furniture and wooden boats for about sixteen years and currently own three planes a block, bench, and a chisel, for me those are the most useful for the type of work I do. I couldn’t imagine working without planes, chisels or other hand tools, there’s no way I could accomplish every task required with power tools or achieve a high level of workmanship. Booth power and hand tools have their limitations and a well balance shop should have a good mixture of booth.
Hand planes are an essential part of any shop. I don’t own them because of “the intimate spiritual "feel of the wood" although shaving tissue thin layers of wood on a nice piece of cherry is very close, I use a plane because it’s a tool that gets the job done. Anyway start out with a general-purpose medium size plane, use it and learn as you go, buy quality not a disposable one, you can find reasonably price ones out there that do a great job and will last.
Good luck,
Rickl
P.S. A plane works according to the sharpness of the blade and as good as your technique. I sharpen my planes at the end of every project in preparation for the next one.
Edited 1/10/2003 11:11:22 AM ET by RickL
Edited 1/10/2003 12:15:04 PM ET by R!CK£
I've been using planes for some time but have a lot to learn. I was motivated by the suggestion above to look into Garrett Hack's book. On the Taunton site it costs about $34 in hard cover. Surprisingly, it goes for about $23 hard cover on Amazon with free shipping. So I ordered it there.
I know how to sharpen a plane to get see-thru shavings across the width of the blade. What has always been a mystery to me is the effect of narrowing or widening the mouth opening. Why should this matter? By the time the shaving would touch the front of the mouth, wouldn't it have already been cut? Maybe Hack's book will answer that question.
By the way, I really would second a suggestion from above, that if you are just starting out you purchase at least one Lie-Nielsen plane. For years I toiled with an old Stanley. When I bought and used my first L-N I was amazed to find just what a well-sharpened plane could do. That motivated me to learn about putting my Stanley in shape, and now it does a much better job. The point is I wouldn't have had a standard to work toward without the L-N.
Briefly, the forward edge of the mouth of a plane marks the first unsupported point of the wood that the blade is about to shear. The blade lifts the shaving ever so slightly before the fiber of the wood breaks (at that unsupported point), beginning the "curl" that exits the body of the plane. The wider the mouth, the more coarse the cut, and the rougher the surface below...... to a point. The narrower the mouth, for a very shallow cut, the smoother the finish .... as long as you do not choke the plane - more or less blocking the exit of the shaving with too narrow a mouth setting which forms a very tightly curled shaving. I don't recall changing the mouth settings of my bench planes other than the initial setup in over forty years, but I have planes more or less dedicated.
Please do yourselves a favor and check out Michael Dunbar's fine book: "Restoring, Tuning and Using Classic Woodworking Tools"- (a splendid bargain @under $20 from many booksellers). A quick check in ABE shows 5 copies in the USA as this is written.
From there, I would suggest you get in touch with one of the old tool collecting groups; as in the process of acquiring a pristine example of any certain plane, the collectors end up with many, many high quality, user tools that can be had for a paltry sum. These planes can be tuned up to perform as well as or even better than those new premium tools. The real nice thing is, you can play around with perhaps ten of the oldies for what one of the new ones cost. In the last few years, I've come to recommend you stay away from flea market tools, as for the most part, they tend to be the really, really bad/offbrands left behind by the old tool collectors/sellers! Most of those guys were there several days before you heard about the place!
I' d be pleased to share more specifics if anyone is interested. I don't want to debate the new vs old, just encourage you to try hand tools.
John in middle Tennessee
Good Luck,
Thank you. I'm definitely on board as far as using hand tools is concerned - just wish I had more skill using them!
As far as the mouth of the plane is concerned, are you saying that the sliver of wood breaks off more easily when the mouth is open, leading to a rougher cut?
Where do you suppose one could find a group collecting old tools?
First, I'd check here: http://www.mwtca.org/
Then you can find a lot of good links here:
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~alf/en/en.html
The tool meetings are much like a private swap meet, most are open to members only. The newsletter alone is worth the membership cost, and there are meetings across the nation. Usually, the evening before will find a tailgate sale out in the parking lot. A number of the collectors are also avid users, and will give you all the instruction and help you might care. Check the schedule of regional meetings, and get to one soon where you are usually allowed to join at the door. They start kicking off about this time of year, and get more numerous as Summer nears.
Surf the links under either the above for other connections.
Good Luck,
YES, GOOD GOD YES THERE ARE GREAT GROUPS ON HAND TOOL COLLECTING!!!
One is the Early American Industries Association http://www.eaiainfo.org They produce a magazine and hold meetings about old tools and the trades they were used in. I'm glad I joined.
The Fine Tool Journal http://www.finetoolj.com has a quarterly auction and all sorts of articles on old tools. Well worth getting a subscription to. Both of the above groups hosts meetings and such, usually in the Northeast.
There is an online message board known as the porch that I also read, although I don't post there yet:
http://denali.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu:8080/~cswingle/woodworking/database/
This is where people who are really into hand tools hang out. Electric tools are referred to as "tailed apprentices" on this board, so needless to say I really like it. The Porch has a definite etiquette so I would recommend Tom Price's site to learn more about it. Tom's a real funny guy and his site is worth checking out. Also, I've found that most guys who are really into old tools link to each other's websites so you can find all sorts of neat info by following the links. Here's Tom's site:
http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/galtprog.html
Hope this helps!!
When people 100 years from now see my work, they'll know I cared. --Matt Mulka
The questions you raise about the mouth of the plane and the tear-out that may occur is illustrated in our bible, The Handplane Book, by Hack.
This page shows how the milling of the frog on a Bed Rock plane (L/N or Clifton) allows the user to close the throat of the plane (move the frog/blade forward) without sacrificing the support of the blade. The frog on a common bench plane can be adjusted for a 'finer' cut, but the blade is suppended over the mouth, creating a situation where chatter is more likely to occur.
Get the book, then look for some nice user planes.
Good luck,
Tom
Upon closer examination, you might find that the only significant difference between a Bedrock and a common Stanley benchplane frog/bed assembly is that with the common bench plane, you must remove the iron to loosen the fixing screws permitting you to adjust the frog's position in relation to the throat. With a Bedrock, you may make that adjustment with the iron in place. Stanley capitalized on this feature for sales purposes, but eventually the users of their planes decided for themselves that the extra cost was not justified, because they just simply did not adjust the frog once it was setup initially. Thus Stanley long-ago discontinued manufacturing a very fine tool. The Bedrock weighs slightly more, size for size, giving one more inertia to follow-through on the difficult cuts. Thus users "think" the Bedrock is vastly superior. This is simply not the case, so owners of common Stanley planes need not feel handicapped.
Once you have a plane more or less "dialed-in", you may find that you don't want to mess with the throat adjustment of that plane, ..... you will instead reach for that "other" plane you have dialed-in for the other usage. Thus, as the saying goes, you can never have too many planes! AND ..... by the way, I personally favor Bedrock's over the common ones ......when I can afford the much higher cost.
John in middle Tennessee
John,
I've got a coupla problems using planes perhaps you have a suggestion for me. A few weeks ago I made to raised panels (28x12, 15 degree slope) out of red oak. It was a struggle with the #5 and #7 and took about 6 hours. The cuts made by both planes were about a half inch wide (ie not using the whole blade)...I used the #5 for short heavy cuts and leveled /smoothed with the #7. All I could think was that the planes were set up wrong...and I needed to go back to the books.
About a week later I used those same planes...un-modified...to plane some pine ...beautiful full blade wispy curls.
The question is: does the Red Oak hate me, or do the planes hate me!...lol.
Also, when the planes are working well, I'm paranoid to sharpen the blade and loose the current position. Any suggestions how avoid spending an hour of fiddeling after sharpening?
Edited 1/11/2003 8:09:33 AM ET by BG
Red oak hates you, at least the board you were cutting. I either get great results with it or it looks like garbage. All depends on the grain, straight even grain is the best. Also, because it's harder, your tools have to be sharper.
Briefly, I suggest the difficulty with working red oak is in the interlocking grain structure characteristic it has that white oak does not. Whether or not it causes planing difficulty is dependent on how it is sawn and secondly on the stresses present from wet storage then drying. All woods react differently to combinations of these conditions. I'd suggest reading closely the wood type and normal use suggestions from a number of sources. In the past, FWW ran a series on different native hardwoods, a different one per issue. I seem to recall principle uses differed surprisingly between red and white oak, and perhaps this is the underlying reason.
Don't be dejected by your experience with red oak. My experience is that it can be a difficult wood to work - splintery and very hard.
Opening and closing the throat of a plane works by not allowing the wood ahead of the edge of the blade to separate too far in front of the blade. This means that the fibres are cut rather than split in the shaving, leaving behind a smoother surface.
John
Next time you wave at me, use ALL your fingers. ;)
Really, when you think about it, there are a ton of different power tools on the market as well. Just think about routers, and you see different bases, motors, manufacturers, and you also have laminate trimmer, etc. Planes are just the same. The concepts are all the same, and most of the different planes are just some variation to suit a specific task. Think of it this way; it would be nice to have a router for every bit, and just pick up the one you needed instead of putting in a new bit every time. Well, planes can be tuned slightly different and you can just pick up the one you won't have to muss with before using. On the same token, you can own one plane, and spend a lot of time tuning it every time you pick it up. The Block planes and bench planes fall into this category...pretty much the same, but you generally tune them slightly different. Rabbett, and shoulder planes are the same, only with an open mouth. Then there are all sorts of specialty planes suited to single things that most people can do without (sometimes the sole purpose seems to be to make money).
Tom
Not one comment on the E.C.E. smoother, at about half the cost of a L.N. its an awesome plane. Having struggled with stanley's for years the wood ones are a religous experience, besides Tage Frid likes them.
Garrett Hack, The Handplane book. Read it, learn it, then youll know and understand planes.
http://www.wwforum.com/cgi-bin/forum_main/handtool.cgi
Here's a good hand tool forum.
As for planes I have 2 wood bodied planes,
http://www.knight-toolworks.com/ purchased
after persuing ####few Records. Wood just slides better.
22" long hunk of purple wood in my hands, uum uum good.
It also happens make a very quiet jointer.
Oh yes, the other planes are metal Stanleys.
Looks like your getting some great advice! I just wanted to throw this in the mix. Ebay has a huge selection of planes up for auction. Everything from old Stanley's to new Lie-Neilsen's, Preston, Spiers ect.. I like to buy an old plane, tune it properly and put it back to work. If you are interested in a particular style of plane, buy an old Stanley, tune it a bit and try it out. If it has a place in your shop perhaps you'll want to step up to the Lie-Nielsen eventually. This is my approach. It's a way to try a lot of different tools to find which one's you like for not very much money. I find that a Stanley #65 low angle block, a Bailey #4 1/2 smoother, and a #605 Bedrock are my goto planes. Oh yea, there's the #78, #3, .... Careful, planes will soon be everywere in your shop!
Steve,
Where, exactly, do you search ebay for handplanes. I've never had any luck.
Thanks in advance,
trusche2
TRUSCHE2,
For finding planes on Ebay, try this.
Go to the homepage and hit the browse button. In the catagories that come up use these; Home and Garden: Tools: Hand Tools: Planes, or you can try this area, Collectibles: Furnishings & Tools: Tools: Carpentry, Woodworking: Planes. In my experience, the last area has the most planes listed and the first area usually has a little better deals. Lots of people apparently have no idea what a plane is so a search of tools or Stanley, Bailey ect., will sometimes bring up some interesting deals. Happy hunting!
Steve
DO NOT USE A PLANE TO REMOVE PAINT. Let me tell a story.
Once there was an inexperienced woodworker who wanted to get some paint off some boards. So he used his #4 smoother to do it. Now as anyone who has used a plane a lot knows, the friction of the sole rubbing the board causes heat. And, to get technical, heat + paint + sole of plane = paint on sole of plane. And once the paint cools, it goes back to being real hard, and hard to remove.
DAMHINT!!
I would take them to a professional. 5 doors would be to too much time for me breathing carcinogenic fumes.
Edited 1/22/2003 11:17:30 PM ET by Matt Mulka
Steve, thanks for the info. I can't believe I just bid on six planes. Not that I know allot about planes I simply put bids on items I could use in the shop or simply liked the way they looked. If I buy anything then maybe I'll do some research for now I'll be happy to just get one of those Bailey or Stanley Planes I bid on.
Thanks again,
When I'm looking for planes, I sometimes come across ones I'm not familier with. Here is a great source for tons of info:
http://www.supertool.com
It's Patrick Leachs's website. I think his style of writting is a hilarious. You probably wouldn't consider plane info to be edge of your seat material, but he makes it riviting. Check out the Blood and Guts area for all the facts on any number Stanley plane. He also sends a monthly list of great collecter tools that he has for sale if you sign up for it.
I think planes are neat tools because they work so well and they are fun to collect. I started with 2 from my great Grandfather and now have about 40. If you want to be amazed by some ingenuity and simplicity, check out a 45 combination plane. It will make cuts that a router would never do. Sure makes you look at the cheap tools avalible today with disgust!
Well, after all these replies on planes, I finally just decided to jump in the pool and buy a couple planes aff ebay. I also ordered the book on planes that was recommended here earlier. I don't know if either of these will do me any good, but the shooting plane was just too cool to pass up. It's 20" long, made in Scotland, and cost me $17 (ouch- shipping $30 from the UK). The other is just described as a 14" Sargent plane, and I got that one for $10. Here are some pictures attached. Wish me luck getting these in useable shape!
Kevin
Greetings!
I wanted the ultimate plane so I bought a kit which is a copy of the Norris Plane. I spent a lot of time making the infill handle not to mention nearly $300 to purchase the kit. I also tried a couple single blade (no chip breaker, blade upside down) home made planes with Hock blades. My home made planes using scrap wood and 1.5" blades cut better, made a smoother edge on a 1" piece of hardwood than the Norris look alike.
I have made about 20 planes from wood and purchased blades, I also have a collection of transition planes -wood base, traditional mounting mechanism on top. With carefully sharpened blades, none of the antique, or standard planes take as fine a trim or leave a more shimmering surface than those I made myself.
I have spent plenty of money on planes, my Doctor brother buys $7-800 planes from Bridge city tool works, and they are gorgeous, yet I still have not found any that work better than my $25 or so (all in the blade) home made planes.
Every plane has its own personality. I test two or three of the planes that normally work best and use the one that for a particular piece of wood seems to work the best.
In the end, it is about what you like, want and find that provides you with a satisfying experience. Saving a few dollars while sacrificing nothing as to quality of cut has provided me lots of pleasant moments.
Remember, you do this because you enjoy it.
Ted
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