Now that I’m really hooked on woodworking, I have “seen the light” that (almost) everything needs to start with square lumber. I’ve reached the point where I can afford my first equipment in that direction, and thought that a planer was probably the way to go. As I examine the pro’s and con’s, it looks like jointers and planers go hand in hand.
My question is when one must come before the other and it may be awhile for the other, which is the better “first” machine? I would guess that this is not the first time the topic has come up, and would appreciate any suggestions who’ve already crossed this bridge. I’m currently equipped with a table saw and drill press plus some hand tools.
thanks,
Rob
Replies
I crossed that bridge a few years back. I opted for a bench top planer so I could get rough cut wood. It opened lots of options since I could make drawer sides out of 1/2" material and I could control the thickness of everything else. At a cost of less than $300 I couldn't go wrong. Mine snipes a bit but I factor that in before I rough cut the wood so it isn't a problem.
Since then, I have added a jointer to the stable and am happy as can be that I did. I spent a lot more money on the jointer since it requires more precision to do the job right.
Good luck.
Rob, you're right, the jointer vs. planer topic comes up very frequently on Knots. Typically, when this type of question gets posted (a valid question, by the way, just one that a lot of people have and ask separately), it's not uncommon to get very few responses. Not that people don't have opinions -- and I'm sure some thoughts will follow what I've just typed here -- but a lot of people have already blown their steam once or twice on it already and don't always have the energy to plunge in again.
Just for fun I did a quick search, using the "Advanced Search" button and using the words "jointer vs. planer." I came up with quite a number of posted responses... and I'd bet if you dropped the word "vs." you'd come up with a lot more. I'd suggest you take some time and read through what folks have already posted... and if you don't come up thoroughly undecided, then I'll know you weren't reading carefully!
Seriously, everyone has a method that works best for them, for everything. My 2-cents: Either do both your jointing and your planing by hand, or do them both by machine -- which means, of course, buying the two of them together. Others will certainly disagree.
David
"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad
If you've got the dough, get 'em both. It's nearly impossible to achieve the initial flat face needed for parallel planing with just the planer (assuming of course that you don't plan to flatten faces with hand planes; if you plan to do that, you're right, I think I'd go with the planer.) With both, you can flatten a face on the jointer, plane a parallel face to the thickness of your choosing with your planer, square an edge on the jointer, and rip a parallel edge on the table saw (you'll need a good glassy-smooth rip blade.) And there you go--square stock. Take any of those tools away, and the process is much more complicated, although with a little brain power it can be done. Reember, it used to be done every day with nothing but common hand tools.
Charlie
I appreciate your responses, and I have spent some time reading previous threads as recommended. It's not my intent to reinvent the wheel here. It would be interesting if FWW or one of the other mags decided to do a "scholarly" look at the question. Money is a scarce resource (buy both), as is time (use my hand planes). I found solid arguments for both jointer and planer as well as reasons for leaning one way or the other for tool #1 between the two.
Take this as a newbie question and not as one to go to the mat with.
thanks, Rob
Rob, isn't decision-making fun?! Forced to make a decision between the two, I would go for the planer first. There are several ways to joint boards other than using a jointer, and face-jointing can be accomplished with a planer and some patience. It's not so easy to plane boards to thickness though (hand-planes used to this degree are out for me -- too much wear and tear on the hands).
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Rob, Lots of good ideas here...my 2 cents worth- go with the planer first and use the mdf platform, first, though, cut your pieces as close to finished length as you can ( shorter pieces should be flatter and have less twist). Don't trust s4s lumber to be flat and square, in my experience very few suppliers take the time to flat joint their lumber. Good luck and try to add the jointer as soon as possible you'll be amazed how much easier and simpler squaring is even with a cheap bench top jointer. Steve
Rob
For another view on this topic, if your budget is tight don't buy a planer, don't buy a jointer. Save your pennies for later.
WW is a hobby for me. When I started, I took a class with a local high end maker and through him gained access to several pro sized jointers (12 in) and planers (20 in). For my next few projects, if I couldn't dimension it using a a hand or power plane, I'd take the timber to a local shop and pay by the hour to have it dressed and thicknessed. Buying time in a shop gave me access to the size of tool I can only dream about. Given that a 12" Delta Planer $3800 and a 20" Powermatic thicknesser costs $1800 (I just checked on Amazon) I figure that even at $30 / hr you have to process a huge amount of lumber before you reach 50% of the cost of your own machine.
I now have my own 10in combo jointer/thicknesser, but still use a pro shop when I need to dress larger pieces. FWIW I suggest your spending priorities should be on hand tools and the skill to use them well.
Ian
I agree here. I don't own a jointer yet, so I joint my boards with a handplane; which isn't really that hard. The hard part with hand planes is thicknessing boards, so the planer cuts down on a lot of shaving time. Plus the planer can usually get boards 'close' to flat before you go and even it out with a handplane. If you don't use hand planes...planers are cheaper...jointers are more useful...
Tom
I agree with the hand-plane and planer option. I have spent many hours surface planing boards by hand and it can be an enjoyable workout if you have the proper bench for it (a bench that lends itself to clamping boards by the edges to free up the surface for the tool), and a couple of decent planes (scrub-style blade in one and jack plane).
Once one side it reasonably flat, it can be run through the thicknesser to dress down to size. By reasonably flat, I mean with undualations short enough in wavelength that they cannot be compressed by the feed rollers of the planer. This should not be too difficult to achieve.
Hello Rob,
As stated before, this is a very popular question. If you look at past discussions you will hear every combination (planer then joiner, joiner first, need both). You will also hear a lot of "tricks" to get around not having a joiner using the TS or router. I have never seen the simple truth.
It all depends on the quality of work you want to produce. People aren't going to like this, but the reality is that most wood workers will never seriously attempt to build pieces to the quality you find in FW. In fact very very few of us will. Most of us are only doing this as a hobby and will turn out mediocre stuff that will not look as good as what you can buy at your local high end furniture store, though it will certainly be better built. To turn out real heirloom quality you will need every one of the main tools you find in a pro's shop.
You might argue that 100 years ago craftsmen didn't have these tools, but they did. They had the manual equivalents. And if you take inflation into account, modern power tools cost a lot less. A 6 inch joiner, 12 inch planer and a band saw replace at least 4 hand planes, and even more saws.
So in short , if you want to produce really head turning work you have to own all of these tools. I've purchased them one at a time as funds allowed, like most all of us do. The planer will not flatten stock at all, but it will allow you accurately dimension lumber for things like drawer sides, and face frames, so you will not be stuck with 3/4" stock all the time. Unfortunately you will not be able to buy rough exotic lumber and turn it into perfect stock with a planer alone.
No matter what you buy you will have the joy of owning a new tool!!
Have fun,
Mike
Mike,
I agree that not very many people out there will build furniture to the level shown in Fine Woodworking, but I think this is mostly , because they are afraid to try. The truth is once you get past the basic joinery,( and this doesn’t take long) most furniture is quite easy to build. It is the finishing that’s the real headache.
As one who makes their living at woodworking, building fairly complicated reproductions of American Federal pieces, I can honestly say I have almost no use for a jointer, but I run the tail off my cheap bench top planer. I would, if space permitted buy a 20” planer, but never a jointer. I also rarely use my table saw, which is a $139.00 special from Lowe’s. It spends most of its time hanging on the wall covered in dust. I don’t feel the least bit handicapped without a jointer or a good table saw. I doubt they would increase my output significantly, if at all. I’m on track to make about 35 piece this year, so my current output is pretty good., and I am by nature quite lazy.
Rob Millard
The truth is once you get past the basic joinery,( and this doesn’t take long) most furniture is quite easy to build. It is the finishing that’s the real headache.
-- Rob Millard
Hear, hear! (Or is it 'here, here'?... not enough coffee yet this morning!)
David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad
Rob,
If you don't mind, could you elaborate more on how you acomplish the tasks of surface jointing and ripping? I'm asking because, like you, I don't rely on a jointer or table saw. Just wanted to hear how someone else does it!
Thanks.
Matthew,
My approach to squaring up stock is as follows. I rarely work with anything over 4 foot in length, with the only exception being sideboards.
I first rough cut the lumber to its finished length , plus about 1 inch. This cutting to length is important with severely twisted stock,, because the twist in a board longer than necessary may not allow you to achieve a flat surface, and still arrive at your desired thickness. Even if you could get the board flat and come out to the necessary thickness, it’s a lot harder to plane long boards by hand. I check for any cupping or bowing with my eye or a straight edge. I made my own straight edge from a 3/4”x 3”x 48” piece of straight grain cherry. Remove any cupping or bows. For small jobs I do this with a jack plane modified to work as a scrub plane ( curved iron). On larger work or where there is considerable material to hog off, I use my Makita power plane. With the piece visually flat, I check for twist with a set of winding sticks ( I use two framing squares, but any two straightedges will work) I also place a piece of light colored wood behind the far winding stick to highlight any deviation from true. If there is any twist, and there almost certainly will be, I remove it by planing the opposing high corners. Imagine the board divided into quadrants and say for example that the winding sticks show that the upper right hand and lower left hand quadrants are high, I will take several passes on the outer edge of these quadrants, then a fewer number of passes in these same quadrants in, the width of the plane from the edge and so on until I come to the centerline of the board, where I take a pass or two the full length. This is one of those things that are hard to describe, but easy to do. After a short learning curve, it will be quite easy to judge how much you need to plane, and the procedure will become second nature. It is also a quick process, taking only 2-3 minutes for a board wider than could be run through most commonly available jointers Check again with the winding sticks, and straightedge to insure every thing is flat and true. This flattened face does not need to be completely flat, it only needs to be true enough to provide a stable surface as it goes through the planer. My work, especially when I use the power plane can look downright crude at this stage, but all that matters is that the piece does not rock, can’t be deformed by the feed rollers of the planer, and that when taken overall the board is dead flat. Since flat stock is critical to achieving good work and efficient output, I’m somewhat fanatical about it. With this side ready it is a simple matter to run the material through the planer. I really like planers ( other than the noise and dust) because all I have to do is stand there and feed it stock, with no real mental input. The only thing I do, is try to have it feed with the grain, and I flip the boards after each pass ( once the faces have been trued), in order to remove more or less equal amounts of wood from each side. This keeps the moisture content in equilibrium, preventing or reducing warping. I placed a longer auxiliary bed on my planer to help control snipe, this also acts like the longer bed of a jointer plane, and results in truer stock. For stock that is too wide to go through my planer, I continue on with hand planes, working mostly across the grain for ease of planing. Here again I’m careful to remove more or less equal amounts of material from each side.
With the faces set, plane one edge straight . I sight down the length to see where the high spots are and attack these first. I sometimes check edge, as I’m planing with my straightedge, but your eye and the feel of the plane over the board can be just as accurate and quicker. Some stock is so crooked that I snap a chalk line and freehand saw the waste off. I use the bandsaw for almost all my ripping, as it is safe and quick. For large slabs like sideboard tops, I use my worm drive saw. I then cut to length with either the bandsaw, worm drive, a handsaw or my crosscut sled on the table saw, letting my mood and the size of the board determine which. For small stock ( less than 7 inches wide) I use a shooting board to plane the ends square. With larger stock, I just plane freehand and check my progress with a square. Here again large slabs like sideboard tops are somewhat problematic, requiring you to move the plane on edge, horizontally, which is at best awkward. I don’t saw or plane the other edge parallel until now, so I can take care of any tearout left from planing the endgrain. To achieve a parallel edge, I either use my combination square as a gauge, or a board with a hook on it and a notch at the desired width, and plane down until I hit the mark.
The process of squaring up stock was one of first jobs given to apprentices, which tells you it does not require much in the way of skill, and that it isn’t any fun. Having said that, it is really the most important step, and it is kind of fun to take a raggedy looking board and turn it into a smooth true one.
Rob Millard
Rob
Thank you for posting such a comprehensive explanation of how you flatten and square stock without recourse to a jointer.
Ian
Edit: Don't you just hate hiting the post button before doing a proof read
Edited 9/26/2003 9:49:13 AM ET by ian
Yeah, thanks from me too. I feel a lot better knowing I dimension boards similarly.
Tom
Thanks for the incredibly comprehensive reply!
I read your description a couple of times and will try it out next time I need to do a similar operations.
Thank you again!
Rob, when you're planing that first edge, do you have a particular technique for staying square to the face?
Thanks,
Charlie
I vote we all go over to Rob's shop and watch him flatten some boards. Probably the best education some of us could get.
Rob, don't you find that the board keeps moving after you flatten it and square it up? I find that if I leave stock overnight, and certainly for a week, it's a different size than when I left it.
I have that problem to a minor degree. Even with the wide swings in the weather here in Ohio, I’ve not had more movement than I could fix with a pass or two with a plane. I try not to bring anything to its final dimension until it will be fixed in place. If this is not possible ( like drawer stock) then I sticker it, so the piece gets even air circulation. The only really bad experience I had was with a figured mahogany card table top, which I swear I could actual watch move, luckily once the finish was on it, it stabilized in the flat position.
Rob Millard
I don’t use any type of a guide to keep the edge square, it’s just mostly a “feel” type thing. I check with a small square and adjust is necessary. After a short time, if you have a consistent hold and stance, you develop what I believe is called muscle memory, which leads to predictable results.
Rob Millard
Everybody should pay close attention to what Rob has to say. This man builds exquisite stuff and from what I've been able to gather, is the epitome of an anti-tool junkie.
He builds without constantly thinking about the new tool that might make him a better woodworker, because tools don't make the woodworker. Sshhh, don't let the tool manufacturers and tool mags, err ahhemm, I mean woodworking magazines hear this!!
We should all be like Rob.
This has been a great series of responses and I thank you all. Several of you had views not voiced in earlier threads, and even the ones similar to the old threads were very beneficial to review.
My decision has changed more to the process of 1) better mastery of my current hand tools and planes before the machine purchase or 2) in conjunction with a new machine. I'll think more clearly when I'm in my workshop and ankle-deep in woodshavings. . .
Rob
Rob...
No doubt by now you've seen that there IS no definitive "right" answer as to which machine is best to begin with... When I started out, I bought a small benchtop jointer first, followed by a benchtop thicknesser as funds permitted. Over time, I've noticed that good though the jointer is, the benchtop style does have a limit re how long a board I can handle. Further, the limited bed width has grown more and more irritating. Conversely, provided I use in / outfeed rollers, the thicknesser doesn't seem to have that problem. Provided the stock is no greater than 12" wide, it's coped really well with everything I've thrown at it with minimal snipe. Thesedays, I'm relying on hand planes to do the initial work of making a good face on a board, squaring the stock with a combination of saws and shooting boards before using the thicknesser to true and flatten the opposite face of the board. I'm in the process of switching from sanding to planing / cabinet scraping to reach finish smooth.
I'm not saying to adopt my methods unless you feel they'll work for you. There's no way I could get a long bed jointer with cutters wide enough to rival what I can achieve with a Stanley #7, some hard graft and a moderate amount of time... The pieces I'm making need long, wide boards... my shop's tiny (8x12ft) and my budget squeaks it's so tight... but... I'm getting by....
One word of advise... buy the best you can afford and look after it...
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Rob,
This is really not so complicated IMHO. If the budget is tight and or space is at a premium, then you should go with the planer. You started off by saying "you had seen the light...square stock is a must" I'm sure you'll agree, dimensioned stock is also critical to the next level of quality outcomes. It's tough to plane one side by hand (sometimes) but quite doable. On the other hand, you don't have to by rough lumber all the time either. Paying $.30 or so cents per board foot for S2S in many cases is one hell of a deal. When yo get the wood home you run it through the planer and you good to go...maybe a little light planing to insure square.
Rob,
As one who had to give up machines and switch to hand tools for health reasons, let me assure you that planing by hand is not very difficult, and in many cases is actually faster than using a machine. Unless you've got your heart set on spending some big bucks for a new jointer or planer, I suggest you use this time to learn to do the job by hand. Later, if you decide to do so, you can still buy the machines, but you'll be a better craftsman for the skills you've learned.
Jeff
For years I worked with a planer; no jointer. A PITA, but a flat board is quite doable with any number of inexpensive (albeit a bit time consuming) jigs. The simplest is a falt piece of MDF the width of your planer. Put your rough board on it, and see where at the bottom there are gaps that cause it to rock. Then, use wooden wedges, cut if needed. Put a stop on the front of the MDF which the stock will rest against, attach the wedges either to the MDF or the stock (hot glue works OK for this). Run a couple of passes with your wedged sandwich, and when the top is flat enough, take the stock off of the MDF, remove the wedges, and flip it over. Then mill to finish thickness. No big deal, and the resul tis quite accurate. Tehre are other ways with a TS to joint the edge. Just put your board on a piece of 1/2 plywood, and elt the right edge of the ply run on the fence, then rip. The saw blade will register to the stright edge of the ply, and you're done. As to a jointer, it is great, but save for a wide one. As wide as the stock you normally acquire. They are expensive, but the width is worth the cost, I think. The Euro combos are a possibility. They make a lot of sense, but I have never used one.
Alan
Rob,
Well I may as well throw in my $.02. I'm going to buck the planner trend, and open up a can of worms simultaniously. The New Yankee Woodshop inspired me to get into woodworking, and I bought my tools to simulate Norm's shop, as close as budget would allow. Now that my work is better built then it was when I began, I'd still do it the same way. Get a jointer first. The table saw and jointer are a dynamic duo for making parellel edges, and if you are making wide boards out of narrow boards, you need that. Invisible glue lines are easy with a jointer.
You can buy a variety of thicknesses of stock to get by with no planner for a while. It's nearly impossible however to find a board that is straight, at your lumber source. I bought my planner when I started resawing.
Of course, hand planes do all this, and they are fun, quiet, and you get a workout. Not to mention, a great smoother will do away with sanding. I'd still get the jointer though before the planner.
I started out wodworking about five years ago, just as a hobby. I would build pieces for friends as holiday/birthday gifts, and before long their friends were calling me to build them something. I am now at the point where I am trying to turn wodworking into a small business. I've gone this far without a jointer, without a planer, and without a table saw.
I use my router table for jointing. I have some 4" straight bits. I just offset the outfeed fence by 1/64", and then I am good to joint pretty thick stock that way. I rarely need to joint anything thicker than 2". I have experimented with various ways of smoothing and thicknessing surfaces, including hand planes and power planers. I have to admit that I dislike both of these methods. For that reason, I'll probably have to buy a planer sometime soon. But I will never buy a jointer, and I will likely never own a table saw.
So if my exprience is any lesson, buying the planer is probably the best bet.
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