<!—-><!—-> <!—->
I am a hobbyist woodworker and have a shop in my basement. I am looking at upgrading my planer. Currently I have a portable Delta 12 inch planer that I have installed on a stand with dust collection. It works well and has always done a good job except for snip, which I usually deal with by planning the lumber before cutting it to length. However, I am in the middle of a project requiring wider panels and I have a couple more projects coming up also needing wide panels. I found I can buy what looks like the exact same machine painted a different color, from different vendors. Looking at the Grizzly, General, Jet, Shop fox, Powermatic, Sears, <!—-><!—-> <!—->Steel<!—-> <!—->City<!—-> <!—->, Yorkie … they all have 20-inch planers that look exactly alike. They must have to have come out of the same casting. I am wondering if they are all being produced by the same manufacture and resold in different colors. They come with either three or five HP motors and either cast iron or roller in and out feed tables. Some have a spiral head but you can buy a spiral head for any of them. I have ask both General and Grizzly about the similar machines and received marketing replays about quality, how they are inspected and how Grizzly is a direct marketer without dealer mark up. However, I have no real answer about the technical differences. Does anyone know if the internal parts are different? Would a Powermatic be better built than the identical Grizzly? Does one company use better bearings or different steel in the parts? Is any real difference at all? If there is why do they all look alike, I would think vendors would want do something to make there product at least look different from everyone else’s.<!—-> <!—->
Edited 4/23/2007 5:02 pm ET by Y1RET
Edited 4/23/2007 5:02 pm ET by Y1RET
Replies
Obviously, there are differences in these products. There are other issues, however. Weight and cost spring to mind. Can you get something so heavy and bulky into your basement? How much is it worth to you in the long run? Is WWing a business or hobby? If it is a hobby, the cheapest will probably work just fine. Must you do some rewiring of your shop to run it?
Any of these machines is a giant step above your little Delta which is what I use, too (model 22-565), as a hobbyist. If I need a few wider boards, I plane two of them, join them with precision, and hand plane and sand as required to level the joint. That is how I will continue to do it unless I decide to pursue WWing as a business -- which would take out all the fun for me anyway.
Cadiddlehopper
....which would take out all the fun for me anyway.
Agreed!
Kevin
I wonder how many agree with us. On the other hand, I wonder if I might not have led a happier life as a cabinetmaker during my working years. It did seem to me that I always enjoyed pursuing hobbies more than the work that I got paid to do even though my job was extremely interesting.Cadiddlehopper
Morning YIRET...
I did some extensive shopping for a 20" recently and ended up with the York-craft 20". It is the same as Griz and Shopfox and come off the same line in China. Wilke Machinery just has it at "the price is right cost" of $1045 plus shipping.
The Steel City and Power-matic come off the same line in Taiwan, but both the line in China and Taiwan are owned by the same company an all operations will probably be moved to China for the cheap labor eventually. These two have some features added the other 3 don't as 4 speeds, etc. But... yes all are basically the same base machine with a few different specs and add-ons throw on by the individual vendor for each. So..... draw your own conclusion in this case.
Note what CadidddleHopper said about the weight. My 770 pound beast was fine as I just rolled it right in the shop and set her up. Sounds as if you might have some issues with getting to your basement?
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
<<but both the line in China and Taiwan are owned by the same company an all operations will probably be moved to China for the cheap labor eventually>>It's funny how things keep changing. I wonder who China will be losing jobs to in 25 years.
Africa
My prediction also, it will be the only place left except Antarctica.
John W.
Well, if Althegore is right, it'll be tropical up there by then anyway.
Morning Mike...
And indeed that probably will happen as it did in Taiwan when the workers became skilled and kept eyeing what U.S. workers benefits and pay scales were. Taiwan is a democracy as us and it was bound to happen. Even though China is communist, I still see it happening even though the Red Army will have a strong say.
And if that does happen, the guys are probably correct about Africa as it becomes the last frontier of massive cheap labor by process of elimination.
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
SARGEgrinder47
Have you followed closely what is happening in China? The central government is becoming less and less a factor as China moves forward with it's capitalization programs. More and more the decisions are based on economics rather than politics.
While the army still has it's place that place is more and more being impacted by local decisions rather than central planning.. If there is local unrest or rebellion the local force is called in to quell the disturbance.. Since the connections remain local there is opportunity for some protests to occur and in fact a quasi level of official tolerance has become more or less standard in the past three years..
China is changing rapidly to a true democracy.. No longer is it automatic that the communist party supported official will become elected. Some provinces have non-communists as their head. Especially true in the southern provinces.
Afternoon...
I have caught bits and pieces, Frenchy. I stay so busy I really can't stay "in-depth" on a day to day basis. But.. from what has leaked so far, you may be correct in the way they are headed. And if so, you will see workers there in the future demanding more and more till the more is running on empty as has taken place elsewhere.
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
SARGEgrinder47,
Your post indicates that you support management over the workers. That the lions share of rewards should go to owners and managers of companies rather than a fair share with the workers who build the products..
I guess I could understand that if I didn't understand the differance between what workers earn and what the boss earns. You see it used to be that a boss earned 20 to 30 times as much as his workers did. Today the boss may take home 4000 or 5000 times what the workers do..
I can understand it if the boss really created the jobs that workers have. However that often is far from the trueth.. The one who created the product maybe generations in the past and the boss is selected by those who inherited his wealth..
I could even support that if Bosses made wise decisions that resulted in greater profits and market share.. Too often bosses are rewarded not on long term growth but short term profits.. Lack of foresight puts America in a position where we lose markets and the blame is laid on the workers who simply are doing what they are told to do.
Ford Motor company once controlled 80% of the market. poor decisions by management puts Fords market share world wide in less than single didgets, they are only able to control over 5% world wide market share because of expensive purchases by ownership, with companies that have thus far been unable to repay their purchase price..
That's not because the workers got too good a deal rather because management made poor decisions which result in inferior products..
We can discuss GM or virtually any other company that has poor recent performance.
But any fair objective review should indicate where the real problem lies.
Ford like GM is in trouble because they have no pricing power. The products they offer are viewed as a value only if the rebates and incentives are big enough. <!----><!----><!---->Toyota<!----><!----> doesn’t have that problem; ever see a rebate on a Land Cruiser? $58k+ all day, every day, you don’t buy it the next guy will. That is not the workers fault, I’m no UAW fan, but it is management that has put in that position, not the guy on the line. Toyotas costs are not that much lower than GM’s. Now, the Japanese government allows some pretty horrible trade practices, but that also is not the line workers fault, just the folks they vote for.
Napie:When it comes to the "Big Three", are not the unions also complicit in the long, slow decline of these once great companies?As the "foreign" manufacturers have shown with their US plants it's clealry not the individual worker, per se.Hastings
No doubt, but there is plenty of blame to go around. The union could only get what management was willing to give up. They have never stood up to them, I mean, do you blame the bad kid or the parents that let them get that way? Now, the kid is a hopeless wreck and there is no one to help him. I live near <!----><!----><!---->Detroit<!----><!---->, there are still thousands of people with no real skills who have always made enough money to have second homes, three cars and college for their kids, etc. and that is all gone now. With any change, there is always a lot of pain to endure, but like Frenchy, I hate to see the corporate leaders who provided NO leadership, rest on their golden parachutes while the workers, who, for the most part did as they were told, pay the price. It is very easy to vilify the unions, but the lack of leadership, (just like the current administration), is the real problem.
"I hate to see the corporate leaders who provided NO leadership, rest on their golden parachutes while the workers, who, for the most part did as they were told, pay the price."An acquaintance of mine once called on one of the bigwigs at GM and was warning of the then nascent threat from Japan. The aforementioned bigwig went to the window and dismissed my friend's concern with the apocryphal statement, "I see no Japanese cars". Now that's myopia!I am sure that the bigwig is living large in Boca Raton, while the workers in Flint, who were never paid to exercise judgment and foresight, suffer the consequences.I am afraid I agree with you. There is something viscerally unfair in today's management compensation. At the end of the day, they are just the hired help; yet they reward themselves like entrepreneurs.I don't see how the new CEO of Ford can claim any moral leadership with a $28 million package after six months. At least Steve Jobs (admittedly no saint), took a $1 salary while he worked on the turnaround at Apple. Sure he has reaped the benefit, but he was a genuine wealth creator, who put his money where his mouth was. Shouldn't Ford have done the same thing? If you're really good, what is the downside?Hastings
Hastings,
Unions? heck they really are the small fish that feeds off the shark.. If you were to look carefully at the deals they neogotiated with management, they often gave management exactly what management wanted..
Instead of a pay raise which would have affected the bottom line management offered increased medical, dental, and retirement benefits. Things that management could delay having to pay for which made this quarters statement look very attractive.. they knew that when the real cost came due they could claim poverty and pass the cost on to the American tax payer.
It's happened before, it's the way management of big business does things.
Frenchy:At the risk of being didactic and pedantic!com·plic·it (k?m-pl?s'?t) Pronunciation Key
adj. Associated with or participating in a questionable act or a crime; having complicity: newspapers complicit with the propaganda arm of a dictatorship. (American Heritage Dictionary)I tried to use the word in its exact sense with regard to the unions. And I think you agree, they struck a bargain with the devil, but were not the perpetrators - that's management!Regards,HastingsPS Hope you are not too battered and bruised by the shellacking you took on shellac!
Hastings,
I do agree with your assement. The unions took more or less what was offered to them and management cashed the checks that they gained as a result of their short sited manipulation.
Nah! The shellac thread served a purpose! Some tried my approach and liked the results. A few objected over a rather trival matter but then as you read their posts you could see the inflexibility in their thought process. I'll always pipe up whenever I see someone discuss wipe on finishes hoping to gain some converts to shellac. Once they start to use it I don't care what works for them..
Morning Frenchy...
"Your post indicates that you support management over the workers. That the lions share of rewards should go to owners and managers of companies rather than a fair share with the workers who build the products"..
" I guess I could understand that if I didn't understand the difference between what workers earn and what the boss earns. You see it used to be that a boss earned 20 to 30 times as much as his workers did. Today the boss may take home 4000 or 5000 times what the workers do".. frenchy
Actually my post didn't indicate that at all. It only implied there has to be a balance from management and laborers with consideration of who and what factors you are competing with. You can't demand and get the "moon" when the competitor can do it just as well and cut your throat on pricing because they currently have a labor force that will work for almost nothing.
And I agree that the majority of CEO's make way.. way too much money, but... I'll let it go at that as I don't want to get into a political discussion. As you are probably aware, I don't do the "cafe" scene as I prefer to keep my private thoughts out-side of WW'ing pretty much well...... private! ha.. ha...
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
There was a piece on the news the other day about factory jobs leaving <!----><!----><!---->China<!----><!----> for <!----><!---->Vietnam<!----><!----> and <!----><!---->Laos<!----><!----> due to lower labor costs. Now ain’t that somethin’….. Gotta love the Invisible hand of capitalism
<<jobs leaving China for Vietnam>>I spoke with a former Stickley dealer a month or so ago and he informed me that Stickley has moved manufacture of some or all of its furniture to Viet Nam. I can't verify this, but have no reason to doubt him. It just keeps going around and around. Everyone will have their 15 minutes eventually.
Napie,
If you'd like to see classic poor management decisions regarding chasing low labor costs look to Clark forklift company.. It's a textbook example of getting what you pay for.
I know about Clark, formerly a great company. I sell large industrial and commercial boilers; there is a lot of talk about moving that off shore, the only thing stopping it at the moment is the code verification process. As soon as the Chinese figure out how to document their fabrication and testing processes, it’ll be a done deal. And we'll suffer for it.
Napie,
That may not be a problem, China has it's plate full and has little interest in being all things to all people.. The cost of labor has doubled so many times in the last couple of decades that while they are cheaper than America they must import nearly all of their raw materials.. soon shipping costs will start to eat into their labor cost advantage and when you add the cost of importing raw materials, shipping costs and documentation that could well be an industry they take a pass on..
Now India and Bangladesh? (except they have a relatively small market for boilers which provides little incentive to start a new industry)
Seperat variable feed motor, high quality parts and support, incredible dust/chip colection, and many satisfied users. Check out their free promotional DVD package http://woodmastertools.com/s/planers.cfm
Being a hobbyist just means, I don’t get to spend as much time in my shop as I would like to. Seems like they keep expecting me to show up for work as long as I keep expecting them to pay me. I doubt I will ever turn it into a business because I know I would starve. It takes me way too long to get projects done to be profitable. Then there is that dealing with customer thing that can turn a fun hobby into another job, although, it seems like a good every mid April. As far as space power and getting a 900 lb planer into my basement shop, it won’t be an issue. I have 1600 sq ft, minus the area for utilities and stars, a separate entrance with a wide short straight staircase and a separate power service exclusively for the shop. I am limited to single phase 220, but I have multiple 220 circuits available. I am running a General 350-T50 TS and Griz dust collector on 220 with plenty of power capacity for growth. Everything else is 110. <!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
As far as the differences being oblivious, they are not to me. I will insert a couple of pics to demonstrate my point. The actual machines look identical except for the paint. I have also heard, as Sarge discovered, that they come from the same manufacturer in china and that production is indeed being move to mainland <!----><!----><!---->China<!----><!----> to save on labor cost. Funny how the Low Cost Countries are out sourcing there jobs to Lower Cost Countries. The Griz, Shop fox and York-craft, are coming out of Mainland <!---->China<!----> with Jet, PM, General and <!---->Steel<!----> <!---->City<!----> coming out of <!----><!---->Taiwan<!----><!---->. The Sears version can come form either along with several other “Name Brands”. So they are basically the same machine with different paint. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
What I am trying to find out is if there any internal differences. The vendors very on a couple of options, motor size, three or five HP, extension table type, roller or cast iron, and type of cutter head. I have talked to three of the vendors tech support and no one has been able to tell me if there are any internal differences. All three claim not to know what is inside the others machine. The marketing guys don’t address the technical issues, they will talk about the number of engineers they have inspecting machines. Griz has four in <!----><!---->China<!----><!----> and clams they have more that any one else except for maybe one other vendor. General says the machines coming out of <!---->Taiwan<!----> are much better than the ones coming out of <!----><!---->China<!----><!----> but Griz disputes that. I know I can buy after market cutter heads that will fit any of them. I was hoping to here from someone that knows the internals, perhaps a tech who works on multiple vendors machines. Seems like the best bet is to do as Sarge did and buy the lowest cost machine. I could always paint it myself if I want to upgrade. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
The other machine I am looking at is the Wood Master. I went and looked at one the other day. Having the drum sander could be useful. I am not sure if I would use the molder, the small amount of molding I have produced I have done on a router table, but if I had it maybe I would use it. I can’t see using the gang saw. It looks like way to much work to set it up just to rip something. The General TS works great for ripping and running a few more boards through would be easier that setting up the gang saw. I have read some threads on the Wood Master and it seems like most of the people who have them like them. The two issues that come up on the message boards regarding the WM are snipe and vibration. The snip issue ill leave alone because there is a very long thread on that topic alone. The vibration may be an issue. I wonder how it compares to the 20 inch planer. Seven or eight hundred pounds of cast iron will go a long way damping vibration. The Wood Master people tell me there machine is better engineered and so balanced they do not need the extra mass to dampen vibration. The separate variable feed motor on the WM could be a big plus. Slow the feed rate down to 5 fpm gives you a much better cuts per inch number. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Is there anyone who has worked on the both the Wood Master and a big planer that may be able to address the vibration issue? Also, anyone know if the internals are different on the planers want to chime in on this one. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Thanks for your help with this one.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Edited 4/24/2007 12:48 pm ET by Y1RET
Y1RET
I can't say anyhting about the other brands, (I honestly doubt that somebody owns several differant versions of the same machine and can be objective about it)
I will say that MY 20 inch Grizzly has planned over 40,000 bd.ft. of hardwood since I bought it and so far my sole maintinace cost has been one $5.00 belt that I got at my local NAPA store. (two others were there in case I really couldn't have stopped)
If I had it to do all over again I would buy the spiral cutterhead version. (I know) I did buy the dispose-a-blade holder and knives but having worked briefly with one with the sprial cutter head it is so superior to the regular set up that it's more than worth it for me..
The dispose a blade set up makes changing blades a quick task but compared to the spiral cutter head it's positively slow! The main other advantage that I see is the quaity of the cut on highly figured woods, absolutely no tear out, just babybutt smooth! and the ability to turn the cutter head if a blade gets nicked from some foriegn object. You can turn one insert and have the whole groove problem go away. Another advantage is how quiet it is.. There is no way I will ever plane a board without hearing protection. I'd really be tempted to with the spiral head massively quieter!
The shop that has the one I used turns it's inserts every 5000 bd.ft., sharpens them once lightly (which produces an ever so slight ridge between cutters) and then disposes of them. so they can plane 40,000 bd.ft. before buying new inserts. By buying wholesale quanities, their cost is slightly over a dollar an insert.
Not to re-hijack this thread :-), but...
As to the original post, if you're a member of FWW online you can access archived articles and there are a couple you might be interested in. Granted, they're both now dated (9 & 10 years old), but targeted specifically at your question. The historical perspective is interesting.
The last time FWW reviewed mid-sized thickness planers (far as I can tell, anyway) they covered something like 14 or 15 and they all came from one factory in Taiwan. You can quickly navigate to that review through the site's Tool Guide. Another article you can search for is entitled 'Quality Control Taiwanese Style.' Same author, all about his visits to the factories in Taiwan at the time. Between the two, there's plenty of discussion trying to differentiate between so many machines that all have such similar DNA.
Again, they're dated (some of those planers aren't even available anymore, as far as I know), but it shows how this issue has been around for a while. And as far as where this thread wound up, these articles were written around the time that China was apparently just getting cranked up in this industry and positioning themselves to be the 'new Taiwan.' So after only ten or so years as the 'new Taiwan' now we're talking about the hunt for the 'new China...'
And if you can't get to these articles, then I'm an idiot for not having added anything. But I'll put in a plug for joining (I swear I'm not a shill!), I really like my membership. I already subscribe to the magazine, so it's cheap to add the online version.
Thinking of a new screen name,
hypecast
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled