I am just getting started and a little taken back by the cost of hand planes and vises. Does anyone have experience with ANANT tools? They are made in India and seem to be following the Record and Stanley patterns. The cost is a great deal less, but not if you need to spend hours reworking them. I have heard a little that was favorable, but not enough to make any purchases.
Edited 11/20/2006 2:02 pm ET by DanCC
Replies
Dan,
With the exception of the Anant A-78 -- a copy of Stanley's #78 -- I wouldn't waste my time or money. (For a newly-manufactured plane, I like the A-78 better because it has a better fence than the Stanley #78, otherwise the quality is roughly the same....)
You'll end up spending an inordinate amount of time to tune it and will still end up with a mediocre plane, at best. The materials and machining quality just are not there. (I've had the dubious "pleasure" of tuning new-manufactured Stanley, Groz, and Anant bench planes; the results are not worth the effort.....)
You have a couple of choices here, to get a good "user" plane:
1) Go with wooden planes (new or vintage).
2) Go with vintage (pre-WW II) Stanley, Sargent, Millers Falls, etc. You'll probably have to do a bit of clean-up and tuning, but will normally end up with a very nice plane at a very reasonable cost. (Try eBay or one of the antique tool dealers.)
3) Bite the bullet and buy a high-quality, newly-manufactured plane: Clifton, Lee Valley/Veritas, or Lie-Nielsen. All three make high quality planes. The LVs are probably the best value -- the most plane for the $$. Clifton also makes nice planes that work right out of the box. And, LN makes, in my opinion, the best-quality production Bailey-pattern planes available today.
In hand tools -- as with most other things -- you get what you pay for and pay for what you get. Good-quality materials and machining costs money, which, of course, is reflected in the cost of the tool.
Since you are beginning, I suggest that you do a bit of reading before you plunk down your hard-earned money. These books may be of some use to you:
Measure Once, Cut Twice (Jim Tolpin)
Hand Tools (Aldren Watson)
Old Ways of Working Wood (Aldren Watson)
The Handplane Book (Garrett Hack)
Furniture Making Techniques [Vol 1 & 2] (David Charlesworth)
Choosing and Using Hand Tools (Andy Rae)
Restoring, Tuning, and Using Classic Handtools (Mike Dunbar)
Traditional Woodworking Handtools (Graham Blackburn)
The Woodworker's Guide to Hand Tools (Peter Korn)
Classic Hand Tools (Garrett Hack)
The high-lighted books are my favorites, but they are all good and have much useful information.
Good luck and have fun!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Edited 11/20/2006 2:42 pm by pzgren
Dan
As usual, James(pzgren) has given a very excellent, and thorough, response. I can only say that I would have offered the same advice, only I probably would have missed half (at least) of what he stated. Stay away from the cheaper new copies, and you'll be happy in the long run.
I have tuned a near-complete working set of pre-war bedrocks, and am happy for having done it. That being said, I also have a near complete set of Lie Nielsen's, and they are the first tools I reach for. I learned enough from tuning the oldie's to know exactly what I want out of a hand plane, and LN makes it right out of the box.
Jeff
Jeff,
Thanks for the kind words!
Like you, tuning the old Stanleys gave me a pretty good idea of what I wanted (and maybe more importantly, what I didn't want) in a hand plane; have to agree with you... "LN makes it right out of the box"; never been disappointed with any of their products or with their service. Just great tools!Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
FWIW, I have a Record 52 1/2 quick release vise as well as the Annant version (available at Highland Hardware). The Annant is really quite good. I'm sentimental about my Record, but have not found the Annant version appreciably different in quality or function. The Annat is better than the 9" Jet vise as well IMO.
As for planes, if you want quality and more reasonable prices, buy vintage Stanley's. Common bench and block planes the the 1930's (SW) and back (best in my opinion)can be easily found on eBay and elsewhere for very cheap, relative to new planes. Now I'm talking standard (non-Bedrock) models (3,4,6,7 bench) (9, 18, 60, 65 block) (78 rabbet). You can find very clean SW 5's for around $30, for example. Most any of these can be had as clean users for under $40-50, except perhaps a big jointer or specilaty like the rabbet which may run to the $70-80 range.
If older folk there are like those here, and you have neighbours, talk to the older ones about planes. You may well find yourself being given one or two which have been kept as having been dads tools and have just been neglected. It's a fair way to start and gain a few skills without too much cost, but you have to talk freely and not be shy.
Or you can call round mine and I will give you one.
I have a couple of old planes, including a couple of Miller Falls bench planes that were my Dad's and a very old Sargent block plane that was my Grandfather's. I am going to have to look at the really old ones (Great Grandfather) wood molding planes again. By the way, I am not that young, just late getting around to setting up shop -- the big 5-0 is next month.
Dan,
Since you are just starting out setting up your shop, you have many choices and decisions to make (a BFO, if ever I saw one...).
I assume (this is dangerous....) that you have given at least some thought to what kind of projects you want -- or think you may want -- to make, and how you want to go about woodworking. If you do some research here on Knots, you'll find some fairly recent threads on setting up shop, tool kits, etc.; you may have already come across some of that material and found it to be useful.
You'll find that there are different "camps" here: the power tool guys, the hand tool guys, and those that use both. Some tend to be pretty strong in their opinions, most will offer you their views, comments, and experiences, and leave it up to you to draw whatever conclusions.
Adam makes a good point about the use of the plane (one that I failed to take into consideration in my previous post to you...sorry): is it to be used for rough, preliminary work, medium getting-it-more-refined work, or for final surfacing? That would certainly affect your choice of planes. More stuff to think about....
[Truth in advertising disclosure: I'm one of the hand tool guys, but I try real hard not to be too obnoxious about it....] ;-)
Some ideas that might be of use to you/things you need to answer as you go about setting up your shop:
Tool budget? Which tools in what order?
Available shop space? Shared with other functions (garage and a car or two, etc.)?
Hand or power tools or both?
Stationary tools or tools that are more portable (example: cabinet saw vs contractor-style table saw)?
New or vintage tools // Spend minimal time tuning vs potentially a substantial time tuning tools?
Current woodworking skills? Woodworking education budget? Availability of WW classes/instruction in your area?
SWMBO's tolerance of/patience with (expensive) tool acquisition, desire to commission you for furniture, etc. ?
Etc., Etc., Etc,
There is no pretense of this list of considerations being complete -- just a couple of ideas to get the conversation started, and I'm sure that others will chime in with ideas and considerations that I missed. At any rate, there is a LOT of expertise and experience here; all you need to do to take advantage of it is ask....you'll get more answers than you probably want.... ;-)
_____
The Millers Falls and the Sargents generally are great user planes when they are cleaned/tuned up. Too cool about your great grandfather's molding planes!! Not only are vintage planes nice and fun to work with, it's even better that they have a family connection!
_____
I wish you good luck in setting up your shop, as well as a Happy Thanksgiving!
Congratulations on the half-century...I'm about 6 months behind you....
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Edited 11/20/2006 7:28 pm by pzgren
Definitely tune up and try out the Sargeant and Millers Falls planes since they were as good as the Stanleys.
Also, most of the vintage Sears Craftsman planes were actually made by Sargeant and were as well made and as usable as the Stanley's of the same era. Most of my favorite planes are non Stanleys.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
I've been through the same experience. Bought an Anant jack plane because it was new and price was right for me. Then I bought a couple of older planes - Stanley and Miller Falls - and there really is a difference. I never pick up the Anant anymore. I still don't own a new plane like a Lie Nielsen or anything of that quality and may never own one because those old planes can be made to work very well for not a lot of money.I will say that I have almost never had a good experience buying old planes off of ebay. I've received absolute junk when what was advertised was a plane. I've never had an experience when what was received was as good as what was advertised. I buy old used planes from a dealer such as Walt at Brass City Tools. There are others out there and they will sell over the internet.
"I will say that I have almost never had a good experience buying old planes off of ebay. I've received absolute junk when what was advertised was a plane. I've never had an experience when what was received was as good as what was advertised. I buy old used planes from a dealer such as Walt at Brass City Tools. There are others out there and they will sell over the internet."
FWIW, just so those who might consider trying eBay get another opinion, I've bought LOTS of tools that way and in 95% or more of the transactions the tools were as good or better than represented. In the few instances where I ran into problems, they weren't major, and I think I've only had to return stuff once or twice out of scores of transactions. My rate of satisfaction rose as I learned more about the tools and thereby could better assess them from the pics and ask the right questions before bidding. My most recent purchase was a Bedrock 607 type 1 that I couldn't pass up at $70. What a pleasant surprise this baby was when it arrived! It quickly displaced my SW 7 (which I was quite happy with and also got on eBay) as my favorite. I've also gotten nice chisels (750's), spokeshaves (151), an 18 knuckle joint SW block plane, a 248a plow plane (mint with all the blades!), a super clean 78, a 10 Jack Rabbet, plenty of nice Disston and Atkins handsaws of various sorts, a Disston saw vise, a nice scrub 40, a couple decent 3 and 4's, etc. It's all been excellent and many have been deals, though a lot of the more rare stuff costs what it's worth (savings here happen when imperfections that are meaningless to users keep the collectors away).
Finally, if you don't trust yourself to pick or the sellers to be honest on eBay, join Patrick Leach's monthly tool list. He e-mails it out the first monday of the month. That way you know you are getting a tool that is exactly as described. You won't get bargain basement deals, but you will get fair prices and the comfort of knowing the tool has been looked over by an expert. I've gotten several tools form Patrick including a 65 block, a 4 1/2, and various other stuff.
Edited 11/22/2006 10:18 am ET by Samson
Dan,
I think it depends on the plane. There is a contemporary preference for planes that produce fine shavings. This is the hardest thing for a plane to do. But not all planes or all planing operations benefit from fine shavings. So as a roughing plane, really any plane can work.
Personally, I don't see the benefit from having a fancy or expensive roughing plane. I work professionally and prefer my 150 yr old 16" wooden jack plane with a single iron and a brass strike button that I paid $5 for. I think its as good a plane as any available today.
So I think an Anant would be fine for a jack plane. Getting super fine shavings out of one might be not worth the trouble, but for rough work, I have little doubt that it can be made functional.
Now another question is - is an Anant the best plane for the money? There, I would agree with everyone else here. Pre war stanley's are really pretty nice tools. I even like the old irons. No need to replace them in my opinion. I think a wooden planes (not transitionals) hold the distinction as the best planes for the money. I think I can go a step further and say for just about all planes other than smoothers, wooden planes are the best planes available at any price.
Another side to this is resale value. Carefully purchased and handled Stanleys hold their value as do LN planes. Conversely, I doubt there's much market for used Anant planes. So maybe for that reason alone, you'd do better not to get Anant planes.
Good luck
Adam
PS as to vises, that's another axle not to get wrapped around. You can do a lot with a drywall screw planing stop and a pair of wooden hand screws. I worked this way for 2 years and I think I was better off then.
well, adam, i was excited to offer my advice...and then i got to your post! you beat me to it, and probably covered more ground. I finally learned, after a few (too many!)years, that your roughing/first working tools don't need to be super fine..i have a few old stanley jacks i inherited and , with a new LV blade, actually do finer work than they need to.anyways, i love your articles...your latest on early sharpening was very interesting...take care and keep those articles and shavings coming!
Dan I was reading in one of my woodworking mag's (can't remember which one) that anant was going to be offering a new line of higher quality planes in 2007 and would still be less than those crappy new Stanley's maybe you should wait a little while. I for one will definitely check them out when they arrive..
I have had great luck finding old planes at auctions, pawn shops, and flea markets. I bought 2 Bedrocks and a 10 1/2 carraige makers plane for $50. I picked up a Keen Kutter 5C for $4 at a pawn shop. I cruise rummage sales to find trading material (saws, hatchets, i.e. any old tool) which I can swap for planes at a flea market. The KK5C is my favorite. I seldom reach for my #5 Stanley anymore. Once the blades are properly sharpened and set you can do things with the old tools that the cheap new imports are incapable of.
I would love to have some new LV or Lie-Nielson planes but at present I have to make do with these old users. You can ease into things by buying old users and when you are sliding headlong down the slope, make a hefty investment in the high quality new ones.
Dan,
From what I've seen and heard, the planes and vises from Anant and Groz are not very high quality. There are two reasons why: The first is the quality of the cast iron. It is very brittle, and the manufacturers do not let the castings age enough before milling them. What happens is that the castings move and stabilize after they leave the factory. The end result is that parts of the plane that should be flat and square, are not. This results in a frustrating experience.
The second reason is that the fit and finish on the planes is not as good as some of the other brands. In most cases, this can be corrected with some elbow grease, a few tools, some knowledge, and time.
One of the most time consuming problems that I've seen, is a twisted sole. That is when the front end and back end of the sole are not in the same plane when viewed from the end. Depending on how bad this is, and the methods you use to remedy it, it could take 4+ hours of sweat to fix. How to flatten the sole of a plane has been covered, so I won't go into it now. If you want, I can tell you methods I've used to do this. My biggest suggestion is to use a 6"x48" belt of #80 Norton NorZon Alumina Zirconia cut in half.
I've also dealt with poor mating surfaces between the frog and the main casting. A pain to deal with, but fixable. FWW, along with several of the books listed in previous posts, go through the steps to tune up a plane and fix many of the common problems.
Considering the time needed to correct a poor casting, I'd either do a thorough inspection of the plane with a straightedge, etc, or buy a plane at a flea market, yard sale, pawn shop, etc. EBay has been mentioned as well. Even if the plane is a Stanley from the 80's or 90's, it will be better than the Anant or Groz. If you can find an older Stanley, or similar that has the nicer frog, so much the better. Just remember to check the sole with a straight edge / sight along it for major warpage. Also, just because it is old, doesn't mean that was well taken care of, or stored properly. I've picked up some nice planes for cheap money at flea markets and yard sales. I've also picked up a few lemons/paperweights along the way.
Which ever way you go, the best thing you can do is give it a thorough tuning ( even LN, LV, and Cliftons need this, though not nearly as much) and keep it SHARP. For the Anant and Groz, definitely replace the blade. There are several vendors of blades out there and they are worth the money. A2 vs. High carbon, your choice.
For vises, I'd stay away from the Groz and Anant. Some significant stresses are applied to the castings and having one fail(i.e. break) while under load could be disasterous. Also, if you bang it or drop it during installation, it could crack. Also, if the fit and finish are not great, the vise will slip, wear, and go out of alignment. Extremely frustrating to deal with, and a potentially dangerous situation. If you cannot find a Record vise anywhere, Jorgensen and Wilton make a good woodworking vise. Both are over $100, but are well worth the price.
That being said, a properly designed bench and a few clamps and stops can serve as a functional bench for a long time.
Good luck,
-- Blue
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