Replies

1. 
   highfigh | Mar 06, 2006 07:10am | #1

   Pre-war Stanley and Bailey planes are the ones to look for, although Millers Falls and Wards Master are basically the same. Elbow grease will definitely get them working well and if you find some that aren't cracked or too badly damaged, they can be restored to their former look, although they may work better than before. There are tons of threads and responses about planes in the tools section, just take a look. Unfortunately, I haven't heard people raving about the Groz planes, although I did look at their version of the #112 scraper plane.

   As far as your block plane, you can round the corners of the iron a little to get rid of the marks.

   By the way, there are also a lot of threads about sharpening and you can decide on your method of choice. FWIW, I have an 18" square granite tile and I use silicon carbide sandpaper for mine and they cut really well. If you want to start small, that would be the way because any home center will have tiles and sandpaper.

   I would sharpen and hone with water on the paper- if you don't, you'll be breathing iron dust and I doubt that it's healthy. If you do it dry, wear a good dust mask.

   There are quite a few books on planes and sharpening, too. Any woodworking store will carry some of them.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

   
   

   ---

   Edited 3/5/2006 11:11 pm by highfigh

1. 
   LeChuck | Mar 06, 2006 07:48am | #2

   Thanks for the reply, especially the tip on the granite tile!

2. 
   Midnight | Mar 06, 2006 02:25pm | #3

   My sympathies re Groz.. having been stung myself when I thought I was buying affordable capability, poor quality tools are a personal bugbear of mine..

   Form what I've read, I suspect that even if you fettle out all the machining errors (no mean task in itself) I doubt you'll achieve anything beyond mediocrity... Personally I'd put the lesson down to experience and cut my losses..

   As for alternatives, I'm afraid that you pretty much get what you pay for thesedays when buying new; experience with 2nd hand tools has been less than satisfactory too... no such thing as a safe bet..

   In your position, if Lie Nielsen is beyond your budget, I'd have a  look at Lee Valley... Their reputation for producing a quality tool is on a par with Lie Nielsen (well machined castings, good quality steel in their blades) and their customer servise is exemplary..

   To breathe new life in your pre-war #4, try replacing the blade and chip-breaker with either Hock or Lie Nielsen replacements. Bear in mind that you're limited to a blade thickness of 0.095", but having upgraded 2 of my own Stanleys I can verify that the transformation is significant... a vast improvment over the original blades..

   Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

1. 
   LeChuck | Mar 06, 2006 06:46pm | #4

   Thanks for the tips. I looked at the Lee Valley brand as well but that is also beyond my budget...The pre war Stanley that I bought has already been restored, cleaned up (including blade, chip breaker etc.), sole flattened etc...and it looks new. I'll see if anything else needs to be done when it arrives, but it seemed like a great purchase to me. It seems that there isn't as much restoration going on with the smaller block planes though...

1. 
   highfigh | Mar 06, 2006 07:07pm | #7

   If you get one of the better old block planes, go ahead and restore it. It'll make a definite improvement, but if your perceived cost (actual purchase price + your time and anything you need to make it a good plane) comes close to ~$85, a new Lee Valley or L-N will still be a better plane. The bigger planes have more wiggle room if you can get them cheaply and they're in good shape. Look here for the threads having to do with cleaning old planes- electrolysis is really good but if you don't have/want a battery charger, citric acid works very well, too. I bought my citric acid at a beer brewing supply shop (1# was $4.95 and I've filtered and reused it) or if you go to a grocery store that sells Kosher foods, look for 'Sour Salt'. These remove the rust but leave the metal alone. They still need scrubbing (I use Scotch Brite pads) but with mild pads, the results are impressive, considering how bad some of these planes look in the beginning. As long as there isn't major pitting and the bed, frog parts and lever cap are in good (although funky) condition, don't be afraid to buy an ugly one at a low price. Also, don't be afraid to offer low prices for the ugly ones. You'll save a bunch of money and in the end, you'll have more useful tools.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

1. 
   LeChuck | Mar 06, 2006 08:30pm | #12

   How important is the adjustable mouth opening on a block plane? Would a block plane from before 1900 with no adjustable mouth be a good idea?

1. 
   highfigh | Mar 06, 2006 08:36pm | #14

   It just lets you take thinner shavings without tearout. Shaving endgrain and difficult grain won't have good results if the mouth is too open.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

2. 
   LeChuck | Mar 06, 2006 08:47pm | #15

   I see. I was thinking that not being able to open it might be a problem, but it's the other way around as it allows one to close the mouth...

2. 
   highfigh | Mar 06, 2006 06:53pm | #5

   To add something here, I'm pretty sure the reason the replacement Hock, Lee Valley and L-N irons perform better is that, at least in the case of the old laminated ones, the back is not tool steel and because of this, it's not as stiff. This allows it to flex and vibrate when the plane encounters certain wood grains and this causes chatter. Having higher stiffness means higher resonant frequency and less amplitude, therefore less/no chatter. Sticky plane soles are bad too, so remember to use some kind of lube, whether it's paste wax, Top Cote, Boe Shield, camelia oil or whatever. To Everyone else-Has anyone replaced only the iron and not the chipbreaker on a Stanley plane? If so, did you replace the chipbreaker later or not?
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

1. 
   Midnight | Mar 06, 2006 07:03pm | #6

   While I bought both upgrade parts together, I did trial them seperately.. New blade c/w stock chip-breaker, new chip-breaker c/w stock blade then finally both together..

   The chip-breaker makes a hellova difference.. likewise the blade on its own.. but the two together brought the whole up quite a few notches. They allowed me to retune the plane so that the back of the blade wasn't braced against the rear of the mouth.. The result was a significant reduction in tear out with no tendancy towards chatter.. Moving the frog was something I couldn't contemplate with the stock blade.. damn thing would flex like a scraper at the slightest resistance..Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

1. 
   highfigh | Mar 06, 2006 07:20pm | #8

   IIRC, the replacement chipbreakers are in contact with the iron for their full length, right? That, along with greater stiffness would allow tighter mouth since the iron couldn't bow up where the OEM chipbreaker isn't being pressed. I have a #6C with a used up iron, along with 2 #7's- I'll have to get a replacement for fine work, then I can use the original #7 irons for general/rough planing or trying different honing angles. Anyone have a non adjusting frog for a low knob #7 that has the first version of the raised rib (non- notched sides) that they're willing to part with?
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

1. 
   Midnight | Mar 06, 2006 07:31pm | #9

   IIRC, the replacement chipbreakers are in contact with the iron for their full length, right?

   Not quite; the chip-breaker is ground slightly hollowleaving a very slight, tapering gap from a point below the fixing screw to the pad that contacts with the back of the iron. That hollow grind allows the screw to dial some tension into the assembly. The two together are masivly thick in comparrison to the stock items.. that in itself creates a finer mouth as you point out...Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

2. 
   highfigh | Mar 06, 2006 07:33pm | #10

   That's kind of what I thought but the local WoodCraft and Rockler stores don't usually have the replacements in stock.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

3. 
   Midnight | Mar 06, 2006 07:43pm | #11

   I ordered them direct.. allowing for crossing the pond and being hijacked by Customs, they were here within a week.Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

4. 
   highfigh | Mar 06, 2006 08:35pm | #13

   This'll be interesting for me- I'll be spending $65 for the iron and chipbreaker for two planes I bought for $45 +tax. The first #7 has a laminated iron, but I can see how well it really does after I finish honing it. The low-knob #7 is the flattest plane I have ever seen. Tight, sharp mouth and one area at the front corner where someone tried (briefly) to file some rust off. The original grinding marks are still visible over the sides and sole. This one is the reason for the request of a non-adjusting frog, since someone replaced it with a newer one. Not that this one won't work, but it'll let me replace the one on the #6C that has the pin for the iron adjuster placed too far forward and I can't back it out enough.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

3. 
   pzgren | Mar 06, 2006 09:27pm | #16

     I've had the delightful experience of trying to tune a couple of Groz planes that belonged to someone else. To make a long story short: don't bother; it's a near total waste of time. The supplied iron will not hold an edge (in my experience), and all the tuning did was make a very mediocre plane merely mediocre.

     My recommendation, like some of the other posters, is to buy pre-WWII Stanley, Millers Falls, Keen Cutter, or Sargeant, tune it up and, if necessary, put a Hock or LN replacement iron/chip breaker on it. You'll have a very usable plane.

4. 
   gdblake | Mar 07, 2006 07:57am | #17

   You can get an entry level LN low angle block plane for $75.  I doesn't have an adjustable mouth, but it is a high quality tool that will take super fine shavings.  Otherwise, order the Lee Valley low angle block plane.  Either one will last you a life time, even if you are just a kid now.

1. 
   LeChuck | Mar 07, 2006 08:17am | #18

   I wish I were still a kid sometimes :) Wouldn't have to worry about the rent, and the food, and the bills, and the health care, and I could probably still use my dad's tools.Woodcraft has the LN for $75 but it is the normal angle (I think it's a bit incredible that the price doubles for an adjustable mouth, a bit hard to justify that). It might be feasible for me if I buy either a normal angle or a low angle but not both...Not sure yet which one will be the most usable all-around. Since I am currently planning on buying some sharpening equipment, I think the 2 Groz planes will end up on Craig's list after I fix the little one enough to be straight and sharpen them both, and I'll have enough for the right equipment. It seems that there's a good amount of restoration going on with older Stanley bench planes but not so much with the block ones.

1. 
   gdblake | Mar 08, 2006 07:47am | #19

   Get them to order you the LN low angle model, or buy if off one of several websites.

   You can also buy a replacement blade and sharpen it to a 38 degree pitch for a comblined cutting angle of 50 degrees.  No need for a standard angle block plane.

   If you decide to spend the $150 get the LN rabbit low angle block plane (this is my favorite plane for all it can do).  Works great as a shoulder plane, does everything the standard low angle block plane does, will cut rabbits without difficulty.  Great for breadboard ends.  Can be used to raise a panel on a small door or box lid.  Has a better ergonomic shape than other planes.  this should be every serious woodworkers first plane.  Follow it with a #7, then a scrub, a #4 1l2 and you can tackle most projects.  The 7 can be an old Stanley, make the scrub Krenov style, its easy, and buy the LN 4 1/2 with York pitch for your smoother.

   Good Luck choosing.

5. 
   BigK | Mar 10, 2006 04:28pm | #20

   Please don't take this to personally, but you got what you paid for with that Groz plane(?) There is a direct link in retail between price and quality, as you hopefully learned from your experience. Take advantage of Rocklers customer satisfaction policy and return that plane/junk. Honestly, Rocklers, and whoever else sells that junk, should be ashamed of themselves for pawning similar crap off on an unwitting public.
   Suggest that you try to locate a local tool collectors guild. These clubs meet regurlarly. Meetings consist of a swap meet (buyers and sellers), conduct some club business, and normally have a guest lecturer to teach about a type or class of tool. My club always has a tool auction also. There are some good buys to be found normally with a range of pricing for quality, generally pre WW2, hand tools; and a wealth of knowledge is available for the asking.
   Good luck.

6. 
   Lataxe | Mar 10, 2006 05:16pm | #21

   LeChuck,

   Hope you won't find this patronising but can I suggest that you find ways to get the extra moolah for a good modern tool such as a Lee Valley, Clifton or Lie-Nielsen.  You'll save yourself hours of time trying to fettle the cheap tool or restoring an old one.  Moreover, your WW pleasure will be greatly improved and you will be Glad.

   The expensive tool will last a long time and always work well, with care.

   When younger I was very poor financially (rich in other ways).  Racing cycles was my thing then and I gave up many (virtually all) other pleasures that cost money to buy the Campagnolo and the Reynolds 531.  It was worth it.  (I stopped short at starving the daughters, by the way, who probably would have cooked and eaten me anyway, the rascals).

   It comes down to priorities.  If you like WW better than the other pleasures (or even just conveniences) that cost you cash, make WW your only priority until you can get that tool of your desires.  My experience is that "hobbies" like WW (or racing bikes) define and make who you really are much more than you at first realise.

   One day, when you're a famous cabinet maker or otherwise rich, you'll probably be able to make up for the sacrifices by joining a wine club and buying Photoshop (very expensive pleasures).  :-)  Meanwhile your tools and the things they have made will surround you with pleasure of a kind most people never get.

   I know it's difficult, when the bills are pressing and the lady-wife wants new shoes.

    

1. 
   LeChuck | Mar 11, 2006 02:35am | #23

   It is a tad patronizing considering that I'm a father of 3 and have been around for a while :)I have been down that path many times, home-theater, computer systems, etc...etc... I am obsessed and intense about anything I do so believe me, I try to figure out as much as I can. I am also an advanced, published photographer (I'm mentioning this because that is one money pit of a hobby for the non-discerning and those who would rather reach for the wallet than really try to get the best out of what they have).I have learned over the years the rule that often the 1% improvement will cost you 100% more. I usually like to stretch my budget to get the right thing if I think it's worth it, but I have given up on things such as soldering my own audio cable and things like that.For me, 250 dollars in a bench plane is overkill and certainly not worth it, while I respect other points of view, that's mine.My father was a trained, fine woodworker, from the time he left school at the age of 15, as well as a marquetry artist. Unfortunately at a time where an office job was a lot more valued than manual skills. His tools were certainly not the type you'd display on a shelf and his work benches were sheets of plywood on sawhorses, and he wouldn't care to spend any more time than he had to in a tool store.I want what will help me do the job right but not spend on a hand-plane as much as what my bansaw has cost me. I don't have disposable income. Whn I have $250 to spend I'll probably get myself a thickness planer, or a jointer, or a dust collection system or.....That aside, I really like the restored pre-WW2 Stanley that I received a couple days ago. Very clean, tighter than the Groz even to an untrained eye, and nothing else for me to do apparently than sharpen the blade, for about $49.

   Edited 3/10/2006 6:42 pm ET by LeChuck

1. 
   Lataxe | Mar 11, 2006 09:49pm | #24

   He he - obsessive moneypit hobbies.  These are all too familiar.

   I agree about the law of diminishing returns.  In the matter of planes, I think the graph is a reasonable slope from Record to Veritas.  It leaps up when you consider Karl Holteys and similar beauties, on the way up to that peak of perfection (and incredible cost).

   But good luck with the old one.  If it works as well as my Veritas I'll have to kick meself.  Doh!

   Lataxe

1. 
   Metod | Mar 12, 2006 06:16am | #25

   I would not mind hearing/reading about an unbiased comparision of the performances of, say, Holtey, Lee Valley, Lie-Nielsen, and Clifton. Then a thorough analysis of which attributes are responsible for whatever differences.

   How come that considerably more is 'known' about the craftsmanship and the looks of the high end planes than about their cutting provess? Or is it that most of those who own them, are collectors, doing not much woodworking, and there is nobody close-by to instruct them about the differences (or a lack of).

   Metod

1. 
   Lataxe | Mar 12, 2006 03:34pm | #26

   Metod,

   The FWW reviews and comparisons of planes are probably about the most unbiased you'll find.  Give Taunton their due, they don't shy away from dishing out justifiable criticism, even if a manufacturer is a big advertiser.

   Look on the Taunton/woodworking/FWW page and you'll see "magazine index".  There are 597 (count them) entries concerning planes.  There are probably quite a few tests in those references.  Then all you need are the relevant FWW back issues or access to same via the Web.

   From reviews I've read, (just read one the other day about low angle block planes, in a back copy of FWW) the conclusions usually go along the lines of:

   *  Dirt cheap planes (let us mention no names) are usually made of ticky-tacky and cannot be fettled.  They do only cost $12 or thereabouts (but would you stick $12 down a drain)? Some nasty planes cost more; but are still nasty.

   *  Cheap but real planes can be had from the likes of Record and Stanley.  They need a lot of fettling and typically the blades chatter and/or tearout occurs with difficult grain, as the machining and beefiness of the plane parts is lacking.  Otherwise they are servicable.  You can spend another $30 - $60 replacing handles, blades and cap irons, which improves performance but does not make them as good as the next category......

   *  Veritas, Lie Nielson, Clifton are expensive but not outreageously so, given the engineering, quality of materials, finish when delivered and actual ability to plane well (within their intended usage).  Veritas are often cited as the best value for money as they are a bit cheaper than the other two but have similar quality and performance.

   *  Bridge City, St James Bay and others up to the legendary Holteys - these use impeccable materials, beautifully engineered, and usually perform well.  Reviewers tend to get critical of little imperfections with these types of plane as they (perhaps rightly) expect perfection for the high cost.  Holteys actually do appear to be perfect and are often said to have planed some very difficult item that no other plane (in the reviewer's experience) can deal with.  But then the price is mentioned (thousands of dollars) and the wait to get one.  One suspects such planes are not used so much as collected.

   *  There is the "fixed up old planes of a good marque" review.  There are less of these reviews about, although one English magazine (Cabinet and Furniture Making) used to have a fetish about old tools and did quite a lot of articles on how so-and-so had fixed up a Norris or whatever.  This seems like a viable route to a good plane - if you can find a real one that is of reasonable cost and not too broken.  (And you want to spend a lot of time fettling).  The market in good old tools is booming so prices are now very high, unless you're lucky at a garage sale or your granda left you one. 

   *  Lastly, there is the kit market.  You buy the basic plane parts that come more or less machined.  You do further maching and assembly yourself.  In theory you end up with something of the Bridge City quality without the VERY high cost (but its still high).  There was a recent review of a couple of these in FWW, in which the author of the review stuggled a bit, took a lot of hours to finish the planes but was more or less satisfied with the result.  I seem to remember he said he wouldn't be doing it again, though. :-)

   *  Actually, there is one other option.  If you're into precision tool making, you design and contruct your own.  FWW Tools and Shops issues often have one or two of these in the Readers Work pages and they look very beautiful.  I suppose this is a route to a very good plane for little money - if you have the skills, time and inclination.  Such planes are never reviewed, though - you have to take the maker's word that they work well (and I'm sure they do).

   Lataxe

2. 
   Metod | Mar 12, 2006 05:28pm | #27

   Lataxe,

   Thanks for a thorough response. I am fairly familiar with the reviews in FWW (I also often browse through other mags) but what you wrote can be of value to the other Knots members as well as occasional visitors.

   My point was that I do no not come across (not for lack of trying) the reviews of the high-ended planes.

   Lately I have been asking all sorts of questions about planes. I am warming up to the possibility of making some for my own use/enjoyment (but not in the near future). I do enjoy learning about various design issues - which I hope to put to good use when designing my own.

   Best wishes,

   Metod

3. 
   C_R_Miller_Planes | Mar 13, 2006 06:05pm | #28

   Metod wrote: My point was that I do no not come across (not for lack of trying) the reviews of the high-ended planes.They're around, but you're right...they are hard to find sometimes.

   Edited 3/13/2006 11:14 am ET by C.R. Miller

4. 
   quack | Mar 14, 2006 03:30am | #29

   I would be ungrateful  if I didn't comment here.  I am new to WW and even newer to KNOTS. I am stunned , amazed pleased and delighted at the quality of the content of these conversations. The level of discourse, the ,ability to explain, the just plain intelligence of you folks has me dazzled. I came to WW because I thought it would be something for my retirement with an intrinsic learning curve that would outlast me, and therefor, never become a bore. It would also bring me back to my roots... helping my Dad in his boat building shop in the 50's.  Reading through these conversations is just one more reason to be content with that choice. Bless you all.

7. 
   papanick | Mar 10, 2006 10:23pm | #22

   Piece of advice: Buy new and better planes. Restoring is a fair deal of work, and if you start upgrading parts, not as cheap as you think. You can still get good results from older Stanleys or Records, but I'd rather bet on the sure thing.

   Keep the Groz planes (I have a number 5 that I fettled up to a "decent" level). Sure it's not a fine tool, but you don't want to bring your Lie-Nielsens to a job site, to a neighbors house, or to plane the edge of an old door that may have staples lurking in it. They didn't cost that much, won't sell for anything, so get the most for your money.

   The older I get, the better I was....