Replies

1. 
   BG | Jul 24, 2004 04:39pm | #1

   Vallance,

   Welcome to the world of planes...they really give you a whole new set of options for higher quality outcomes.  However, planes are like saws....there is no such thing as only needing one saw....just like cooking with only one pot or pan...not really.

   I think most of us begin with bench planes and then move to joinery planes and maybe molding planes.  In the bench plane family the #5 is great but the block plane is probably the most used.  Quickly you'll want a block, #4, #5or#6 and a #7 or #8.  Some like the #4.5 with a york pitch for smoothing highly figured woods.  A very handy plane is the Stanley #80 for scraping..

   As you can see this could be a major investment unless you go used planes and work them into condition....a set of used Stanleys (block, 4,5,7) could be had for about $100 to $150 dollars.
2. 
   Steinmetz | Jul 25, 2004 03:55am | #2

   Val,  I've seen some of those import planes.  The price seems reasonable,              BUT, the castings are very thick ?? Is it to compensate for lower grade cast iron?

   Are they milled flat and square?? Are they tempered? are all the parts accurate and interchangeable?  Are they really made in India?  (Not outsourced from CHINA?) Are all the rough castings cast in backyard furnaces using scrap metal from Godknowswhereva?  Coleslawvania?

   Do they rust when kept indoors?  Are the manufacturers complying with enviromental codes? Employing minors and small children?

   Providing adequate health insurance?   I'm real suspicious;  shouldn't you be?  Steinmetz.

   The influx of cheap crappy tools from third world countries  has just caused Americans to long for the excellent tools made in our country by our skilled craftsmen (and women)

   Grab up any and all old Stanley/Sargeant/Millers falls hand tools you can find Pretty soon they'll only be found in museums

    Our grand children will have to be content with plastic tools as well as furniture/fences/molding/cars/bicycles sold at Dollar Stores

   I have to stop, my ranting ,my bloODPRE..... S t  e i       nnnn   .

1. 
   Vallance | Jul 25, 2004 01:19pm | #4

   Can't tell how they look or feel in the hand. I live in Denmark and my only option is to order these planes from Germany, no inspection first.

   As I hinted money IS an issue and thus Lie-Nielsen, Clifton and whatnots are - for now - out of my league and I have absolutely no intention of waiting years before I'm out of school and have a wholesome income before buying a plane.

   How could I possibly know under which circumstances these planes are produced, and do you think the firm selling them (www.dick.biz) would know - I doubt it. Do you ask and investigate these questions with everything you buy, clothes, shoes, parts that make up your car? And for those of us working wood isn't it always a moral issue how the wood we use is harvested, the erosion impact, the animals, the workers harvesting the trees etc. etc.?! I understand your concern and I agree, but I haven't got a chinamans chance of knowing this.

   I don't expect Lie-Nielsen quality in a plane costing less than the blade in a L-N, but with a little patience and some knuckle juice much can be rectified (my Stanley 9½ certainly needed this work). I really wanted to know if a # 4½ and a # 5 would be a good place to start - what do you think?

1. 
   milanuk | Jul 25, 2004 01:53pm | #5

   Possibly more like a #4-1/2 and a #7. If I'm not mistaken, they use the same width blade (2-3/8") vs the narrower (2") blade on the #4, #5, & #6. That, and I think the #4-1/2 and the #5 kind of overlap as far as job duties. The #7 would give you a longer jointer plane which should come in handy.

   As far as the rest... I hear ya. I've probably actually got the $$$ to get a Lie-Nielsen if I really wanted it, but I have other hobbies w/ priority dibs on the piggy bank. My luck w/ old Stanley planes off of eBay is a little hit or miss, depends I guess. I've been eyeballing the Anant planes myself. Highland Hardware here in the U.S. carries them, and for the most part they don't seem to carry too much that is absolute junk. Might try dropping them an email and seeing what they have to say about them.

   Let me know how they work if you do end up getting them.

   HTH,

   Monte

   Edited 7/25/2004 6:56 am ET by milanuk

2. 
   Steinmetz | Jul 25, 2004 01:55pm | #6

   Vallance, Sorry about the rant, I just assumed you were from the US. Here we can buy used Stanley tools at flea markets I have three 9-1/2 block planes They are the most used tools of my hand tools.

   That should be your first choice Next, get a low angle version of the block plane (Used for cross grain and stubborn grain wood Fitting miters etc etc. )Some years ago, I spent a week in Copenhaven and still remember visiting Tivoli Park  and my stay at a lovely private home ON Krodmolegaard Allee

    I shopped at a Magizene  and ate many Post mobils? at the Hot dog venders in the square  I remember arriving at the Luft Haven in 1950 and spotting a collection of giant cast steel barriers used during the war to deter enemy planes from landing(They were enormous and shaped like girls jumping jacks)   Something like tank traps

   While in Germany,  (US occupation forces) I purchased a few German planes and I still have them today

   The company  PRIMUS still makes them, although now with adjustable iron feature in stead of the 'Knock and wedge' feature that I believe Jesus Christ must have used

   Good luck with your wood working,   Steinmetz.

   Edited 7/25/2004 8:30 pm ET by steinmetz

2. 
   Mackwood | Jul 26, 2004 11:31pm | #11

   Steinmetz

   I do hope you're right about the old tools becoming more valuable!  I invested about $4500 in old hand tools over the past two years.  Wife thinks I'm bonkers!!

   Regards,

   Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"

1. 
   EdHarrison | Jul 27, 2004 10:22pm | #17

   $4500 in old hand tools? Good grief, am I reading that right? Well finally I've met someone who's got it worse than me!

   I bet the guys that were trying to put you on report for turning in Sears screwdrivers would rethink/reinitialize with that bit of knowledge.

   BTW, I got that #50 up to speed and its cutting little grooves like there's no tomorrow.

1. 
   Mackwood | Jul 28, 2004 12:33am | #19

   Yeah Ed, I've got it pretty bad!  Actually I got a bonus from the business and just got to be an E-bay tool junky for a while.  I've really slowed down in the past 6 months or so 'cause prices keep going up and I've pretty much got what I can afford to get.

   Never did get a #1 or a #444 or any truly great rarity just a bunch of Bedrocks and scrapers of various #'s.  I did get a 5 1/4C and a #66 from around 1909 with all the cutters, both fences and the original box in almost new condition.  Best deal I got was on a very sweet Type 1 #20 in almost unused condition.  A few others as well but now I'm busier with the painting business and keeping the properties up to snuff, I just can't devote the time for fooling around with the old tools.  Maybe this winter I'll get back into it to some degree but I want to devote more time to working with the tools not fussing with them.

   Good to hear from you again!

   Regards,

   Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"

3. 
   jako17 | Jul 25, 2004 06:24am | #3

   Anant planes have been around for years and the quality isn't bad considering the price .Take a machinists square with you when you buy to check the specific plane for square and flat.Expect to spend some time tuning them up(even old and new stanleys and records need this) and if you want to go further fit a hock iron.Read up on tuning planes before you start and try buying just one first to see how you get on

4. 
   MichaelPB | Jul 25, 2004 08:29pm | #7

   Why not buy a good used one off of ebay?  Or post a want ad in the classified section here?  I bet if you offered some neat wood in trade someone might make a sweet deal on a good used Stanley.

   They often don't sell for $10-$15 on ebay for ones that need a bit of work.  Since your going to have to true up any cheap plane anyway, fixing up a well made Stanley will get you a nice product in the end.

   Just a thought.

5. 
   Alan | Jul 26, 2004 01:15am | #8

   Vallance,

   Questions like yours pop up around here with predictable regularity.  "What should my first/next [fill in the blank]?"  Also with predictable regularity I reply that a useful answer to such broad questions can be made only by the woodworker--only by you.

   Which plane you should next obtain depends on weighing a host of factors of which you can be the only judge.  You need to think about things like: how much money you have to spend; how long you are willing to look; your willingness to go to garage sales, flea markets or the like; the time you're willing to spend tuning it up; how much fettling skill you have; the lowest quality tool you're willing to use and that can be made to yield acceptable results; and perhaps most important, the tasks you want your plane to perform.

   Take the last one, for example.  In your post, for the tasks you want to perform with your plane, you mention only flattening surfaces and truing edges.  Both those tasks are best done with a large plane, a #7 or #8.  (Don't confuse flattening with smoothing.)  So it seems you should be looking for a jointer, not a jack; but perhaps not, depending on the answers to some of the other questions.

   A jack plane is good for dimensioning.  They're most often used between a scrub plane and a jointer.  Certainly a jack can do those other chores, but other tools can do them easier and better.  Remember the maxim: "jack of all trades, master of none."  So you need to think about how many different tasks your plane will need to perform, and how many compromises you're willing to make.  Only you can answer those.

   People are ready and able to help you, to guide you in the right directions.  But for you to get useful advice means you first must already know those things that only you can decide.

   You have already done some of this by telling us what brands you're looking for.  "Should I get a new Anant or a new or recent Stanley or Record?" is the sort of question that can generate some useful answers.

   Sorry to preach.  I'll stop now.

   Alan

   
   

   ---

   Edited 7/26/2004 4:10 pm ET by Alan

6. 
   SoCalDon | Jul 26, 2004 05:17pm | #9

   I first posted this on another forum:

   American Woodworker back in early 1996 (pre-Readers Digest days) did a comparison of smoothers and rated the Anant a “Best Value” for the money. My own personal experience with Anant began in 2000 when a co-worker gave me an Anant 78 duplex rabbet plane which is a knockoff of the Stanley 78. I liked the fact that it had a double-armed fence instead of the single arm fence the Stanley came with. It tuned up nicely and is one of my users.

   As for smoothers, I do have an Anant #4. The casting quality is good, it does have an adjustable frog and a vertical adjuster. I would put it on par with a Stanley made post world war II before they completely went to pot. The blade leaves something to be desired but can be sharpened to produce fine shavings. I eventually replaced mine with a Hock for longevity reasons.

   An Anant smoother with replacement knob and tote and a hock blade will put you in the clover for way less than a Clifton, Lee Valley, Lie-Nielsen and the knowledge you acquire in fettling the Anant will not be wasted. On the other hand, I wouldn't purchase a current production Stanley #4 and expect it to become a user no matter how much fettling was done to it. Those planes are junk.

   Okay, I’ve now stepped off the soapbox now. Thanks for listening and feel free to disagree, its all only my two cents!

7. 
   Mackwood | Jul 26, 2004 11:27pm | #10

   Vallance,

   I second Michael's advice.  Look for older Stanley's on E-bay.  If you intend only use, look for ones with cracked totes and the like.  You can make your own without a great deal of trouble (first one's the hardest LOL). Rust is another issue that kills value for collectors but not necessarily for the user.  A rusty iron can be replaced with a Hock or other upgrade and other rusty parts can be cleaned in a variety of ways.  If you have time to spend but little money, I think (2cw) this is the way to go. 

   As for sizes, bench planes I'd go 4 1/2, 5 & 7 plus at least a couple of block planes (with adjustable throats) one normal and one low angle for starters.  After that it becomes an addiction that can easily get out of control!!!

   The Stanley types 11, 12 & 13 are the most popular as they are about as good a quality as Stanley made and they have all the refinements of design.

   Good luck; enjoy the hunt!

   Mack

   "WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"

8. 
   alpha | Jul 27, 2004 12:08am | #12

   I believe your best investment would be an antique Stanley. As others have noted, #4, #5 & #7 are the bench planes to start with. You might consider starting by buying Ernie Conover's VCR tape "Reclaiming Flea-market Planes" (Highland Hardware.com). It will educate you on the basics of what to look for and how to make an antique 'sing'.

   Cracked totes (handles) are easile replaced. Avoid iron casting cracks, damaged mouths and deep pitting of the sole. Most other parts can be easily replaced (again see Highland).

   I teach handtool classes and would be glad to answer specific questions about antique Stanleys. In short with the quality and value of antiques there is no reason to buy new imitations.

1. 
   Vallance | Jul 27, 2004 02:02pm | #13

   Thanks everyone for your advice and suggestions. As a novice I appreciate the help and time all of you have given.

   Here's a more detailed picture of my situation:

   As I wrote in my last post I live in Denmark and there's no tradition of doing finer woodworking in this country. That means the access to tools is very limited compared to other countries, especially the US. This goes for new as well as, and even more so, antique tools. Finding antique Stanleys here is close to an impossible task, antique planes are wooden - period! So, most of you suggested to go for Stanley, which I more or less anticipated, but that would mean ordering from the likes af e-bay, paying shipping fees (not inexpensive) and recieving a tool which might be beyond hope, having no garantie and perhaps no way of returning the tool for a refund; I don't feel confident chosing this option.

   You get what you pay for and I know buying Anant isn't top notch, but surely it will perform reasonably with some tweaking?! I antissapate replacing whatever I buy now with something sweet and deluxe once the bucks are plenty and I actually have a shop to work in. I don't want to wait and go without working wood untill that time. The Anant planes seems to be like Record and present Stanleys in "quality", and I know that is nothing like owning a Holtey, but how many actually drive Rolls Royces??

   Part of the original post was a question of which models to chose as the first, a smoother and a jointer is the way to go I've found out. But someone asked if I know the diffrence between flattening and smoothing and I guess I actually don't, to me if it's flat after being planed it must therefore also be smooth (after a little scraping and some sandpaper) but now I think I might be way off - please explain! And there's a little something about a shooting board to get edges nice and square, has anyone got a plan for such a thing?

   Thanks again, fellows,

   Vallance

1. 
   BenM | Jul 27, 2004 02:26pm | #14

   If you want a new excellent quality plane without paying a lot of money try a japanese wooden plane.  They start at around $45 US.  You do have to learn how to tune the sole and how to adjust the iron but then you're good to go.  They're not as fancy as a Lie-Nielsen but the surface finish on the wood will be just as good.

2. 
   SoCalDon | Jul 27, 2004 05:32pm | #15

   Vallance,

   In your last post you said that Anants seemed to be comparable in quality to current Stanleys. I have to disagree, Anant makes a better plane than Stanley makes today hands down. Those who bust on Anant planes probably have never tried them. You will find few who actually have who will bag on them for the price.

   In your situation I think Anant is the perfect choice. Too many of us neanders have forgotten how intimidating it was to buy our first couple of old tools not knowing whether we would finish with a reasonable tool or not. I myself can remember when I didn't know whether the bevel went up or down in a block plane.I now have over 50 other planes which include older Stanley's and some new Knight wood planes, some Veritas and Lie Nielsen.  My tuned Anant planes fit right in with my other users with no embarrassment. I believe it is easier for someone like yourself to purchase a new plane which you know is complete and undamaged as a way to get your feet wet in fettling a plane. Once the mechanics of planing and fettling are learned, it is easier to know what you've just picked up at a local shop or evaluate what you've seen on eBay.

   I have nothing to gain by touting Anant as I have no affiliation with them other than as a satisfied customer.

1. 
   Vallance | Jul 28, 2004 01:13pm | #21

   SoCalDon,

   Glad to read your words, I think it decides the matter for me. If the general notion was that Anant wasn't worth the money I'd look elsewere, but in my search Anant was the only brand I could afford so I've been crossing my fingers.

   Thanks,

   Vallance

3. 
   BG | Jul 27, 2004 06:42pm | #16

   Vallance,

   David Charlesworth has a couple of books on the market which will provide much information on planes, shooting boards and how to use.  I can assure you, learning to setup, sharpen and use a plane effectively can take years ..before you get it right.  Save yourself some grief...see if the library carries the books  

4. 
   AlanWS | Jul 28, 2004 12:00am | #18

   Vallance:

   I have several comments. First, you say there is no tradition of finer woodworking in your country. That is sad, particularly since a Dane, Tage Frid, is as responsible as anyone for the resurgence in the United States of interest in fine woodworking (and the establishment of Fine Woodworking Magazine).

   Also, you say you are interested in learning to use planes, but can't invest a lot of money at present. A block plane could be a good place to start: it's much cheaper than a larger bench plane, and as long as you get one with an adjustable throat, you'll have a useful tool on which you can learn to sharpen, tune, and plane. Having a plane can give you the patience to watch for deals in other types of used planes. Wooden body planes are adjusted differently from the way metal ones are, but these can give top performance as well. You can buy them new or used, or make them yourself. There is a book by David Finck called "Making and Mastering Wooden Planes" that not only teaches you to make planes, but provides a nice introduction to woodworking and the use of all the tools needed to make a plane.

   You can get absolutely top quality plane irons, and instructions for making wooden planes to fit them, from http://www.hocktools.com . You can find cheaper plane irons elsewhere, but probably not better ones.

1. 
   Vallance | Jul 28, 2004 01:31pm | #22

   AlanS,

   I was unclear, what I should have said was, "there's no tradition of finer woodworking outside a small very closed circle of professionals". There's no league of gentleman amateurs, a forum to share and compare like this. So those of us bitten seek and find magazines and forums like the one we're in now. Of course, being only a small group there's no commercial interest in us and we are therefore at the mercy of foreign suppliers.

   I'll look for the book you mentioned, thanks.

   Vallance

5. 
   Alan | Jul 28, 2004 03:00am | #20

   Vallance,

   I was the one who reminded you that flattening is not the same as smoothing, and that they're not best done with the same tool.

   Imagine you get a board that's all twisted, cupped, bowed and bent, and run your smoothing plane over it.  Because the plane has a short sole it will ride up and down the hills and valleys, taking a whisper of a shaving everywhere it goes.  You'll wind up with a board that has a beautifully smooth surface, but is certainly not flat.

   Take the same board and run your #7 or #8 over it.  The long sole will bridge the valleys and the iron will cut only on the high spots.  Keep that up until you get one long shaving from one end to the other and your board will be flat--but it may not be smooth.  There may be some tear out, a rough spot, and your jointer will undoubtedly have left tracks on the surface.

   Use your smoother after your jointer, and the board will be both flat and smooth.

   A jointer can be used as a smoother I suppose; but a smoother will do the job easier and probably better.  With consummate skill I suppose you could use a smoother to joint an edge or flatten a panel; but a long-soled plane will definitely do those tasks much easier, and probably better.

   So do you need both a smoother and a jointer?  Well...it depends.  But more to the point, is a jack a good compromise between a smoother and a jointer?  I suppose.  But having both will make smoothing and flattening much easier--and will certainly do them better--especially if you're just learning to use your planes.

   Alan (no, the other one)