I am building up case panels out of walnut boards about 7-8″ wide. I will edge glue the boards using biskit wafers for alignment. I still anticipate some degree of variation in the completed panel that will have to be smoothed out. I used to use a belt sander to level the surface but I need to learn how to use a plane instead. I do not have much experience in hand planing large surfaces. What type of plane should I use and what are the best techniques to use?
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Well, for one thing, I wouldn't attempt to learn how to plane large surfaces using your nice walnut panels as practice material.
If you know how to get good results with your belt sander why not stick with what you know?
Later on you might edge glue a couple of 1X12X36's and practice planing on that surface.
As for what to use, buy yourself a #4 smoothing plane from Lie Nielson. It's expensive but it's the best and you don't have to spend one whole day getting it ready to use.
Thanks for the suggestions. I will definitely set up some practice pieces.
Hey Bill, I purchased the LN 4 1/2 smoothing plane a while back ago and I love it. I am a novice and my sharpening and tuning skills however are welll lets say low.
I have used it pretty much right out of the box and get excellent results. I practiced on various types of woods, first on pine, then cherry, and poplar, and have just started on hard woods like maple.
One problem I am havingis that I ge tliens on the wood from the edges of the iron. I did purchase and read Garrett Hacks Plane book and see that that one needs to smooth over then edges of the iron on smoothing planes and make them a bit covex to avoid lines made in the woods from the edges of the iron like I am experiencing. Gee whiz I spent all that money on a LN plane and now have to file dowm the edges of the iron. I am too afraid to do it. I also have 1 small bastard file and that iron is made of pretty hard stuff.
What can I do to get this worked out. just go ahead and start messign up the edges of the iron? Any suggestions?
Learn how to sharpen and hone an iron on a less expensive plane. I imagine you have one already. The Complete Guide To Sharpening, by Leonard Lee is an excellent way to learn. Then you will have the confidence to hone correctly. Personally I would remove the lines with a card type scraper. Only takes seconds to do. You have to learn how to sharpen and hone this tool too, very easy, but need to practice.
Slightly round the edge on the less expensive iron, try it, when satisfied you will be able to do same on any iron.
mike
I'm not sure which sharpening system you're using. I use sandpaper on glass and fix my plane iron in a Veritas honing guide.
First, flatten the bottom side of your iron.. then turn it over and hone the bevel.
When you're satisfied with the sharpness of your bevel side.. begin lifting one side slightly, then the other, running through the various paper grits or stones.
What you're going for is a slight rocking motion so that you put a slight "round" on the edges.
Then go back and flatten the underside to remove any burrs.
If you go slowly and carefully you'll get just what you're looking for.
Bastard file...???????????????
Noooooooo no... there's better ways to do this. The remedy is to use one of two sharpening profiles. One way is to leave the bulk of the blade nice and straight, but to gently ease the corners, the other is to gently camber the entire blade. Either one is dead easy to do with a couple of good stones and a honing guide.
I've found it easier to ease the corners using an Eclipse guide (or similar); the narrow guide roller lets you cant the blade a little more aggressively than with a wide roller. Start with the guide holding the blade at 30 deg, and give the blade a couple of strokes on a medium stone. To ease the corner, add a little more pressure with your finger tips directly behind the blade corners; press on the left corner and give the blade 5-10 strokes, then repeat on the right for the same 5-10 strokes. It's more important to keep the stroke count the same for each side than the overall number of strokes; it's all about symmetry. Repeat exactly the same on a fine stone; firstly applying pressure evenly across the blade, then press on the left for 5-10 and repeat on the right... making sense so far...???
To finish, remove the blade from the guide, lay the blade on the fine stone bevel side up and gently polish the back of the blade until the wire edge is removed.
Creating a gentle camber is basically exactly the same technique of honing evenly across the blade before applying pressure over the corners. The difference (for me at least) is to use a different guide. I've found the wider guide roller of the Veritas is perfect for this as it limits how far the blade can lean to each side. As before, once the corners are done, remove the blade from the guide and gently polish the back until the wire edge is removed.
Either method will see off any repeat of tram lines on your board, and trust me, it's far easier and quicker to do it than it is to write about it ;) Give it a try... just ummmmmm..... keep the file in the toolbox... yea.??Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Thanks, I guess one calls it a mill file too but they also refernece it as a bastard file too. ?? Not sure where that name came from.
I have a Veritas honing jig and some oilstones that are old. I plan to purchase some Norton 1000,4,000 and 8,000 water stones soon. I will not file the ends of the iron as stated but adjust the strokes with the veritas jig.
thanks for keeping this newbie on track :-)
No worries....
it wasn't all that long ago that I was asking the same questions. Your water stones will be fine, but you must rmember to keep them flat; it's simple enough to do (if a little messy) and needs to be done regularly. The effort is worth it though as they create an awsome cutting edge. Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike, I would like to nominate you for the most paitents award here. You have done an exclent job explaining how to do this.
I hope you hit save each time, so that you can just pull this up every week or so and not have to type this over and over.
Or is ther an archives that you can send first-timers back to?
Keep up the good work, You are the man. k
ummm..... it's real kind of you to say so, I just wish that it were true... lol...
It's like I keep saying; it's not so long ago that I was the guy asking the questions... I'm just trying to repay the patience of others by passing on the valuable advice I benefited from. All I'm hoping to do is help prevent someone making the same mistakes I made... Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
I prefer a cambered iron on a smoother, and my method is similar, but perhaps enough differnt to be worth mentioning. When I hone an iron, I do not do it with a micro bevel. My smoothers rarely get chipped, and so only small work is required. Anyway, I try to hone the iron as flat and straight as possible on a 1000 and 5000 stone, and then go the the 8000 stone. On the finest stone, after honing the iron sharp and straight, it takes only 2 or 3 strokes on each side to create the camber, which is done by slight finger pressure on one side of the iron, and then the other, using an eclipse honing jig. Equal number on each side, of course, to retain symetry. I only want about 2-3 thousanths on each side, back from the center since a smoothing stroke is only taking a very thin shaving, perhpas .001 to .002 in thickness. To check, hold the iron to the light, with a straight edge across the edge (gently, of course) and you can see these small variations easily. With the very slightly cambered iron, I never take a full width shaving. I do not clip the corners since they do no work anyway.Each to his own.Alan
http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com
Thats why I hate using bisquits. More often than not they actually succeed in mis-aligning the two boards--and you can't fix it on a glue up. For edge glue ups, I've never found the necessity of biquits, and the glue ups become immeasurably easier without bisquits, as you can pound and tweek the boards into submission.Regards,
Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
I agree. I think that biscuits have their place. Edge gluing is not one of them. If you are not paying attention when you run your biscuit jointer, you may cause more problems than you solve. Plus, monkeying with biscuits adds another step to the glue up process. Skip the biscuits.
BORISYELTSIN,
WC Fields still didn't say that in "It's a Gift" or anywhere else.
It is still Churchill who replied to the woman who told him he was drunk, "Yes, and you are ugly, but tomorrow I will be sober."
Alan, still trying to convince you to use one of Fields' many great quips--one he actually said. He came up with plenty that are equally good, or better than Churchill's, so there's no need to make one up for him.
Even though I'm very particular about such things, I remained silent as long as I could.
You know Alan, I am a big WC Fields fan, and re-watched the movie last night. You are wrong.The scene is at the end of the movie. Fields has bought a worthless orange grove for $5,000, and is drunk and depressed. A neighbor comes up and tells Fields that a fellow has bought the parcel nextdoor for a race track,but because of the sun, needs Fields' lot for the grandstand. He tells Fields to hold out for anything.The developer offers him $5K, then $10K, then $20K as his top offer. Finally, he tells Fields that he is drunk, and Fields responds with:"Oh yeah, well I may be drunk, but your'e crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow. And you'll be crazy for the rest of your life."Fields holds out for $54,000, and his wife faints.Next time, watch the actual movie before you make a comment like that, guy.
Regards,
Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
BORISYELTSIN,
You almost got it right. What he said, exactly, was: "Yeah, and you're crazy. And I'll be sober tomorrow and you'll be crazy for the rest of your life." Fields says nothing about his state of inebriation.
This is directly from the movie. (I bought it a while ago.) So the version in your signature is still wrong!
I haven't forgotten that you first ascribed Churchill's quip to Fields; and said "It's a Gift" was made in 1924. I e-mailed you about it. You corrected the date of the film and changed to your current mis-quote of Fields--in which you persist despite, apparently, recently watching the movie.
BTW, Bissonette sold the property for $40,000, not $54,000.
Alan
I thought I was the only one. I do use them on miters but prefer making my own spline. I do use them to make jigs and cobble together mdf.
Three comments:
1. Biscuits: I'm going to triple agree with Boris on the use of biscuits. I've found that they create a lot of trouble if you are going to cut down your panels after glue-up -> you might cut through one and it isn't pretty. If you want perfect glue-joints, (a) run alternating faces of the wood against your jointer fence and (b) use c-clamps along the glue-joint to allign the wood while the glue is setting up.2. I agree with the discussion on good hand planes, but the most important part of the hand plane is the workbench. If you don't have a heavy, sturdy bench with bench dogs, you'll never get a plane to work.3. If you've got nice walnut panels, and they need a lot of surfacing, take them to the mill and run them through their sander. It should cost about 10 bucks and the panels will be flat when you're done.Matt
Ditto on the placement of biscuits. I have, on more than one ocasion, cross-cut a glued-up panel with biscuits, and found the edge of one. They need to be marked and done so in conjunction with the final size.Assuming you have that down, I then take my panels down to a local supplier and for $25 they will surface sand them.Bear in mind that they will start with flattening the bottom, then the top, so one will lose about a sixteenth, perhaps a tad more.Regards,
Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
I am looking for a place that will flatten and sand in the NYC metropolitan area. Does anybody know of one?
Most hardwood suppliers in my area have wide belt sander.Regards,
Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Hey,The guy at the Lie-Nielsen booth at our recent woodworking show went straight from 1000 grit to 8000 grit. Had two 1000 grit stones, one to rough up the other and create a slurry. Used a piece of wet/dry silicon carbide sandpaper on a granite falttening plate to keep his stones flat. Put a new microbevel on a blade and ready to use in 5 minutes, flat. You may not need that 4000 grit stone.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
I was not at the show to see the LN guy do the sharpening, but more than likely he was rubbing his 2 1000 grit stones together to flatten them, and then rubbing 1 of the flat 1000 stones against his 8000 to flatten it. For plane blades you do not need a 4000 stone but you do for chisels. All this being relevant if you follow David Charlesworths ruler trick.
Almost. He flattened one 1000 grit stone on a piece of 120 grit SC sandpaper; this left a glaze and he would use the other 1000 grit stone to take the glaze off. Then he would hone a 2ndary bevel on one newly flattened 1000 grit stone, take off the burr on the 8000, hone on the 8000, then use the ruler trick.I was unaware that chisels have different needs, other than needing to be perfectly flat (e.g., no ruler trick.) How is it that chisels need 4000 grit and plane irons don't? You've got my attention. I didn't see him sharpen any chisels.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
By honing the flat side micro bevel using the ruler trick, you can go directly to the 8000 grit stone, even on a brand new never touched plane blade. Since you do not use the ruler trick on a chisel, you need to polish the back going through sucessively finer grits, 1000, 4000, 8000. The plane blade however will never see the 4000 grit stone. Too big a jump from the 1000 to the 8000 on a new chisel. Going back to the flattening of stones, I rub my 2 1000 stones together, and flatten my other stones, 4000 and 8000, with the now flat 1000.
Spitfire, I suggest that you go on to the Lie Nielsen web site and order the video on how to sharpen a plane blade, including how to gently curve the blade. The video is by David Charlesworth, I found it well worth the price. I found the companion video on planing very informative as well. What you learn is the technique to get sharp plane blades that perform as you would want them to. He shows that it is not so hard to learn this and that it need not take too much time.Rod
Rod,
How do you get David Charlesworths video's? I have tried on Amazon with no luck. I would prefer to buy it in the United States if possible to make it easier for shipping.
thanks,
Dimitri
They're available here...
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/library.html?cat=6Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
The first thing you need to remember is to allow enough thickness for flattening after glue-up. I'd leave at least an eighth of an inch, and probably more since this will be your debut with a handplaning panel glue-ups. On on that point, you ought to practice hand planing some other stock and read up to fully understand the process of flattening and dressing a wide panel which is necessarily a tad more difficult than working single boards.
Be as accurate as you can with your glue-up. That said, I have an all hand tool operation and I regularly leave the wood in the rough (actually skim planed by hand to read grain and color) and work the edges enough to get the panel glued up and start from there as if the board was a single, wide board which is ultimately the point. Working this way, I have a lot of thickness (read cover-your-as* cushion) to work the panel to flatness. There's nothing worse than working individual boards to within a sixteenth or so of finished thickness, gluing them up, pulling the clamps to find the glue-up didn't go as well as planned, and that the necessary fix will leave you under finished dimensions. This is a mistake that should only be made one time.
If you do a good job gluing up I think you could go straight to a smoothing plane, but certainly you wouldn't need more than a jack plane. If the panels come out of the clamps more contorted than you planned, you might want to use the longer jack, but set with a fairly fine mouth. You don't want tearout if it can be helped. Make sure you orient the boards with the grain running in the same direction, as best you can.
You probably don't need the biscuits, but if they make you feel more comfortable in terms of board alignment then use them. Remember, just gentle clamp pressure. Crush-to-fit will always cause problems.
Have fun. These are obviously crucial glue-ups as problems here waste a lot of stock and most likely stock well selected for grain and color.
Always warm yourself and the plane up on some scrap to assure yourself of the plane's tuning and readiness for work. Nothing's worse than taking your first stroke and realising that the cap iron wasn't tight and you get a huge gouge across the face of the stock. Make sure the plane is producing acceptable shavings before you put it to work on the project stock. Run a candle along the bottom of the sole, sight down the sole to make sure the iron is set squarely in the mouth. Tighten the cap iron securely.
Give yourself every chance for success.
If the glue-up goes exceedingly well, a #80 cabinet scraper could be all you need to ease out any small ridges and inconsistencies. This is your fall-back position and I wouldn't hesitate to use it.
As the others have said, time spent making sure your boards align as close to perfect during glue up is half the battle.
Personally, I'd use 3 planes for this, along with a good (long) straight edge and a pair of winding sticks. Start removing the worst of the overlap with a jack plane. How fine to set the mouth depends on how much material you need to remove; the more needs removing, the coarser you want to cut to begin with. Work across the grain, skewing the plane in the direction of the grain to minimise any tear out. As soon as you get the higher boards close to being flush, stop, retune the plane for a finer cut and resume until they're flush. Check for high spots with the winding sticks and adjust accordingly. At this point, flip the panel over and repeat on the other side.
Next, work along the grain with a fine set jointer. You shouldn't need to do too much here, but it's an important step prior to finish planing. Again, check your progress periodically with the straight edge and winding sticks, and flip the panel to repeat on the opposite side.
Lastly, a real fine set smoothing plane should negate the need for sanding.
If I were limited to doing this with just the one hand plane, my choice would be a #62 with a range of blades profiled for fine / course work.
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
You mentioned the jack plane, the jointer plane and the smoothing plane. I assume the blade that comes with each type of plane plane will have the correct bevel already ground into it. What about setting the blade angle? Also, if setting the mouth opening determines the amount of material to be removed what does the depth of the blade protrusion below the sole affect?
Edited 11/24/2004 6:07 pm ET by jackhall
Jackhall
The primary differences between each of the 3 planes are their overall length and width. Jack planes tend to be around 14", smoothers somewhere between 7 1/2 and 9", jointers are around 22 1/2", with a blade width of 2 3/8". For flattening a board or jointing an edge, a longer bed is preferable; smoothers don't need a long sole because the board should already be flat, just needing refining. Jacks need to be long enough to begin to flatten an uneven surface, without being so heavy that they'll tire you with extended use.
The default bevel angle on most (all) of the bench planes I've seen has been 25 degrees. It's customary to add a secondary bevel while honing the blade; I tend to stick with a 30 deg secondary bevel. Blade angle depends on the pitch of the frog in bench planes, i.e. to change the angle, you need to change the frog (see York pitch frog). Alternatively, you can hone a back bevel onto a blade to increase the angle of incidence; raise the blade by the thickness of a ruler, bevel side up, and hone the tip. (angle of the back bevel + frog angle = angle of incidence)
The exceptions to this are the bevel up planes (#62 for example) where changing the honing angle of the secondary bevel directly affects the angle of incidence. (angle of the secondary bevel + bed angle = angle of incidence)
Blade depth and mouth opening are inter-related; to avoid tear out with a fine cut, both the blade and mouth should be set fine. Similarly, a course cut needs a deeper set blade and wider mouth to allow the passage of a thicker shaving. My apologies for not explaining this clearly to begin with.
Just to confuse things... while it's technically possible to leave the mouth set fairly open and still take a fine shaving (with the blade set to take a fine cut) doing so runs the risk of causing tear out.
One last point... to avoid tram lines (parallel witness marks on the board caused by the corners of the blade), you can round over the corners of the blade. This will gradually feather the edge of each cut into the board, rather than leave harsh "tram lines".
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Edited 11/25/2004 3:27 pm ET by Mike
Hello Mike. I do not understand how the back bevel would affect planning characteristics, since the main bevel is up.
Back bevels only apply to bench planes i.e. bevel down; you seemed to explain it pretty well in your last post... back bevel = ruler trick... the bevel is polished onto the back of the blade thereby increasing the angle of incidence between the blade and the sole.... it works like a poor man's York pitch frog... steeper pitch is better suited to wilder grain, at the penalty of requiring more physical oomph behind it...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Yes sorry about that, I had a momentary but ever more frequent brain block.
ayeeee..... auld age doesn't come by itself.... ;)
don't ask me how I know this...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
jackhall,
What Mike said!
Flattening a panel (which is what you will be doing) is a three-plane operation--just as Mike said.
Frankly, I'm a little worried because of your reply to Mike. The questions you asked are so basic, so fundamental, it sounds as though you're really starting from zero; they are the kind of questions for which you should already know the answers if you're ready to begin hand planing a project. No one emerges from the womb knowing how to use a hand plane. I think you need to study a bit before you put any of your hard work or expensive wood at peril. The fastest way to lose your affection for your hand tools is for you to begin wielding them before you really know how; but knowing how to use them, and how to prepare them for use, can make using your tools a great joy.
The Handplane Book, by Garret Hack is wonderful. It has enough of the basics to get you well on your way. Any or all of Saint Roy of Underhill's Woodwright's Shop books contain a great deal of information about hand tools and how they are used. There's also Planecraft, by C.W. Hampton and E. Clifford, though it's really one long advertisement for Record planes, it is worth reading.
You might check if your local community college has a course on using hand tools. There may be woodworking clubs in your area where help is available. Sometimes local stores devoted to woodworking tools have seminars on various skills.
There are so many little things that have to be right before your planes will perform well--and not all of them are your know-how. The plane itself needs to be properly tuned and the iron truly sharp before it will do anything useful--besides keeping a door propped open. You also need to know how to read the wood, to know which direction you should plane, how to spot possible problem areas, how to set the iron and mouth for that wood, what angle to grind the bevel, whether the edge should be cambered, and on and on.
In short, you need to study, learn and practice. Do that and using your hand tools can be wonderful; otherwise it will be a horror.
Alan
Edited 11/25/2004 3:20 am ET by Alan
Alan. I totally agree with you about learning the principals and practicing. Although I have built a lot of furniture and cabinets for over 30 years, it turns out I have gotten this far without having to do hardley any hand planing. I know some of the basics but have very little application experience. Kind of a wierd situation. I have one small plane about 6 1/2" long and one about 14" long. I will pursue your recommended reading and try to practice on some scrap lumber before attacking my glued up panels.
Since your boards are surfaced already, just do a good job of gluing up.
Then scrape them smooth.
I use utility knife blades to scrape 32"x60" table tops that I have glued up.
I agree with what everyone else says, and I'll make one further suggestion if it hasn't already been made.
Walnut is not the easiest wood to plane, so I'm not sure I'd start with that.
Once you buy your planes and learn how to get them really sharp, which you will find is a huge learning process in itself, buy some clear pine boards (no knots). Practice on that. Pine is wonderful and easy to plane. You'll really get the hang of it that way, so when you're working with the more difficult walnut and have problems you'll know whether it's just you or the wood itself.
very good avice and I have worked with pine and cherry boards to prefect my skills.
sure is enjoyable palning with a well tuned and sharp plane!
I would have to agree with Bill that using your walnut panels to practice planing would not be in your best interest.
I also agree that in your situation the use of a hand held belt sander might be your best bet. However, you will need to scrape any glue from each joint before you do anything else. And it is preferable to do this before the glue is fully cured. Other wise the excess glue will build up on your sandpaper and create a whole new problem. If you have too much variance at the joint to level with the belt sander, you might consider looking in your area for someone that has wide belt sanding machine that can sand the entire panel.
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