Speed and ease aside… and assuming both are accomplished “correctly”… will one result in a finish with clearer grain/figure than the other? If so, does the finish matter? If so, does the type of wood matter? If so, presumably the planing (and i include scraping in that category) would be better, but does a final hand sanding (say 200) prep prior to finishing change that result?
I have read inconsistent conclusions on this question, including from finewoodworking itself.. I am planning on running my own test (hopefully I am competent at both tasks…) but am very interest to learn what your belief and practices are… particularly the finishing experts…. howie, steve s. and others.
many thanks.
tony.
Replies
I agree with Howie, with one caveat. As he said, finish will obscure any difference in the surface appearance. But, the two methods of preparation may well leave somewhat different surface "shapes". A plane may leave a slightly scalloped surface that except with high gloss finishes you might feel with your fingertips more than see. For reproduction furniture, such a surface is more attractive than the wide belt sandet, absolutely flat, surface found on factory furniture.
Random orbital sanders tend to leave a different pattern of scallops--generally less attractive than those left by a hand plane. That' one reason why hand sanding, with a sanding block, is always recommended after sanding with a ROS. If you are going for a modern look, then you really want flat surfaces and it's worth the work to achieve them, particularly if the final finish will have much gloss.
ROS verses Roz
>plane may leave a slightly scalloped surface that except with high gloss finishes you might feel with your fingertips more than see<
There are some words in there ( like may and might feel more than see ) that shoot what I am going to say down but I can't help but say :
I usually agree with about everything Steve posts.
But in the words of Roz on Frasier when he is showing her around his apartment before turning it over to her to house sit for a while and take care of the plants etc.
Frasier : "I frown on over night guests ".
Roz : "Then you aren't doing it right ".
I kind of feel like that about finish planing a table . . .
Now you see them ( and feel them ) .
Now you don't see them ( and can not feel them ) .
With power and hand sanding I would be concerned with an undulating "softness" creeping into the final surface. Lacking a hard crisp flatness that can only be produced by the hard flat sole of a finish plane guiding a near no camber blade over the last of the whisper high ridges you are speaking of to remove them.
I haven't ( and so far have had no reason to ) sand a table top flat with power sanders and sanding blocks. This is just my imagination running away with me into fantasy land. It is a dark , scary , undulating place.
: )
that glimmer
of light coming across your table top in pic 2 tells you all that you want to know about the surface. there are undulations all the ways across that top. just look how the light refracts. not bad thought
ron
I'm Still Undulating But Hope To Feel Better Soon
: )
Point taken.
Some observations :
Some of that is rowed grain; just doesn't reflect light in the same way.
The wood was so hard that with a finish plane blade with the slightest camber it would dull a fair amount before I got even a third of the way across the table. I would switch blades and keep going. So a bit of that is where I stopped with a less than sharp blade and took off again with a fresh blade. Not so much a dip as more or less cleanly sliced cells of the wood depending on the condition of the edge.
I even used a bevel down # 1 with a back bevel to help clean up some problem areas. That blade had some camber but I used it super light.
When I was talking undulations from sanding I was thinking UNDULATIONS. ~ .002" ( two thousandths of an inch) or more up and down running length wise. Something a marble would roll along and settle into.
What we are seeing in my photo must be on the order of .00001" ( one one hundred thousandths of an inch ). I was getting more visual problems than that while doing my half assed french polishing. Turned out great though in the end. I didn't sand that either. I tried some sanding in the finish but didn't like the results.
But thanks. Keep keeping me honest.
PS: obviously I am not saying the table is flat to .00001". I am not sure how to quantify/qualify/what have you what I am trying to say but am thinking those two specs over a short distance of several inches or a foot. No . . . the table has moved a fair amount out of flat but the over all smoothness is very consistent along what is of course a gently curving surface (depending on time of year ) over all.
In my experience, it's fairly rare to make furniture that is nothing but a large flat surface with square edges. There are usually shapes, intersecting joints, veneers, inlays, bandings, moldings, panels, turnings, sometimes plywood and other situations where using a plane just doesn't work. What do you do if you don't make a flat slab? What if you do make slab furniture and it isn't perfectly flat? Firing squad at dawn? Maybe we'll have to send the Tinsley lab guys over to Roc's place now that they are through with the Webb telescope, just to check his table.
Well Obviously I Don't Have Near The Experience You Have
Plywood ?
I suppose people use that to make "fine" furniture. That is what we are talking about.
If one were to why couldn't they plane it as well as sand it ? Assuming it is furniture grade plywood ? Sand through or plane through what is the difference ? Short plane of course.
Krenov made his own plywood and planed it. A bit thicker lams than the cigaret paper modern stuff though. He gave up on all that finally and returned to using only solid wood. He often had curvature to his work but rarely sanded.
Ohhhhh you mean for getting rid of what's it called . . . that fuz that sticks up when you wet it caused by sanding. I don't recall but you know what i mean. I don't have much trouble with that.
>intersecting joints<
plane them
>veneers, inlays, bandings<
plane them; scraper plane or regular
>moldings<
Assuming we made the molding with a molding plane well . . . and you can scrape or make a custom scraper to go with the molding plane .
>panels<
I got a little lost there why can't we use the "P" word ?
>turnings<
Sharp tools do we need sand paper ? I think not.
>plywood<
Oh god are we back to that stuff ?
>other situations where using a plane just doesn't work<
I must leave that to the imagination. Perhaps a shoulder plane with the front foot removed, a chisel plane, a chisel, a plane blade hand held back flat or otherwise . . . dare I use the "S" word and say scraper ?
>What do you do if you don't make a flat slab?<
Oh you mean like the body of a violin or sumpin; or a boat. Perhaps you are thinking of barrels and stuff .
ummmm . . .
thats a hard one . . .
wait . . . I can get it . . .
compass plane ? and errrrrr . . .
http://www.diefenbacher.com/luthier.htm
and
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/barrel-making-and-cooper-initiating
(I forgot to say axe. Did you see that boy with the axe ? Those guys are tougher than I am tha's for sure. )
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1313
Oh did you see the shaves while we were at LN ? Those are nice.
In the words of the King in The King and I :
etc., etc., etc.,
>What if you do make slab furniture and it isn't perfectly flat? Firing squad at dawn?<
That is usually my choice but I keep waking up back here . . . sort of like Bill Murray in the movie Ground Hog Day.
What do you suppose it means ?
>Maybe we'll have to send the Tinsley lab guys<
Sounds great ! I bet I would learn a lot from them. Are they wood workers too ?
: )
I hope I passed.
If Glimmer Tells All Then Give Me a Second Chance
I came upon this photo while looking for another.
It sort of verifies my comments about rowed reflecting differently. The finish sorts that out.
Still no sanding. And still the finish isn't all that great but the surface began well before the finish was applied.
The straight lines of the reflections on the finish. Better no ?
PS: Did you ever see the movie Glimmer Man ?
that glimmer
looks better, but distance improves a lot of things and angle. that was a S. Seagal movie wasn't it?
it would be interesting what kind of surface that you would still be doing after 20 or 30 table tops and trying to make a living at it. those big sanders would start looking pretty good
be honest now. how many hours did you spend on that top? what do you have for a base. it looks pretty good in that picture alright. there are times that cameras can be fairly critical. they can be pretty cruel and at other times flattering
ron
you didn't go back and sand it did you and apply the finish again did you?
it looks pretty good
here is what distance can do for you. http://www.micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/index.html
angels dancing
All,
Roc has come close, but no one has addressed the real issue that needs addressing. Namely, the moral superiority of those who sole-ly plane, and eschew sandpaper. That is, how much closer to the divine can one approach, riding on a back bevel rather than trying to approach on a random orbit thru heaven? One may prefer to debate how many more angels can dance on a piece of 3M 220 aluminum oxide, than can fit into the furrow left by a Hock O3A3; this simply illustrates the heretical attitude of the one posing the question. If you must resort to abrasives, you are merely a novitiate to the Order of Fine Woodworking;to be a true believer, you must give up the sinful practice of sanding, renounce the abomination plywood, and foreswear the demon polyurethane in all its forms.
Can I get an Amen?
Ray
Don't try this at home.
I tried to eschew sandpaper but it ruined the finish on my teeth.
employing smaller angels
" . . . how many more angels can dance on a piece of 3M 220 aluminum oxide."
Naturally, that begs the question of, "Why stop at 220 grit?" Extending the sanding schedule to 600 or even 1200 grit or higher, puts the question on more-even ground. Finer grits provide smaller points for smaller angels to dance upon. ;-)
Ultimately, when planing, the surface is going to reflect the finest grit used to prepare the plane iron. If one were to stop honing the iron at 220 grit, you'd have a surface with 220 grit furrows, for example. I don't know of anyone who stops honing at 220, so shouldn't the same criteria apply to sanding?
There is, of course, the follow-on question of staining. If one sands to finer grits, there are smaller crannies (or, are they nooks?) for the particulate in the stain to settle. That means the stain won't stain as dark. But, that might be less important than how smooth the surface is.
Burnishing
Where does burnishing fit into all this. A few months ago some of us at the Washington Woodworkers Guild were exposed to burnishing and several of us started to make our own burnishers out of wok brush/scrubbers and whisk brooms and other stuff. The wood sure does shine after a good burnishing but I have not tried doing it on anything other than test pieces. I'm not yet confident that the burnishing will stay burnished. Thought of burnishing drawer runners but got scared that the grain might raise again locking the drawer in place.
Heretic!
One does not defile a devine planed surface with the perversion of (ugh, shudder) s- st-- st-ain.
I need to wash my brain now.
OOOOOMmmmm
Ray
I was amenin' my ace off until you said
> polyurethane<
Dang it !
I have poly in the Maloof finish.
I am not worthy to pass those gates.
So close.
My son,
Go, and sin no more,
Ray ;-)
Agree.
It is difficult, if not impossible to achieve accuracy with portable power sanding or hand sanding.
With a well tuned hand plane, it is possible to take cuts at 0.001" and and achieve almost perfect flatness to the eye.
Fangs for the memories
You're velcome, and that's the tooth, the hole tooth, and nuthin' bit the tooth, so help me gag.
gag
I know Gag. Gag Halfrunt !
He is Zaphod Beeblebrox's private brain care specialist. Big job.( Zaphod has two heads and both of them have been described as being about as sane as an emu on acid.)
"Vell, Zaphod's just zis guy, you know?"
Watch wot you say about Zaph, he's my hero. Gag tried to kill Arthur and then morphed into Werner (I Aim for the Stars, but sometimes I hit london) von B. What's with that?
I find that planing gives you a better and smoother top,as long as you you use a Cabinet scraper ,then a card scraper after planing. if you need to sand after this ,do it lightly.
I try to plane or card the surface.....
...but there are times when I cannot. Like, for example, bullnosed, or complicated profile end grain. There, I have to use sandpaper.
So there's no getting away from sandpaper, I think. But I do try to minimize it.
planing v sanding
I have that problem to,so instead of trying to hide the end grain, I make it pop.
To do this i use wet and dry sand paper (240 or higher) .
I wipe on danish Oil then sand, I then wipe it off across the grain.
This not only makes the end grain nice and smooth to the touch, it will look just like you have planed it.
You can also use this technique if you are going to stain the piece( I do not, but some customers do ).
Can I get the Tinsley guys over to my place too? I would love to have them take a look at a few vintage bailey planes. This .0001 stuff is for people who clearly have no self respect. I say a millionth of an inch or no deal!
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