Hello all,
I am making a chess board and am wondering about glues. I will be bonding 1/8 veneers of solid wood (maple and wenge) onto baltic birch ply (both sides). I’ ve been told urea plastic resin is what I should use. I am a little concerned about the cure time with the temperatures as they are where I am (mid 50,s) so I was also thinking of using polyurethane. Having never used plastic resin glues before I also want to keep the glue line as small as possible. Does any one have any thoughts on which glue to use or helpful hints with either?
Thanks for any info!
pat
Replies
I used to use powdered resin glue exclusively, as it was free in the shop I was working in at the time.
More sensitive to clamp pressure and temperature than some more modern glues, but a thin, easy-to-sand glue line as I recall. And decent working times for big assemblies.
All the stuff I made with it from 2+ decades ago is still going strong...except the bench worktops left outside in sun and rain, as one would expect, and some of the laminated mallets...not the best glue to withstand impact, either.
You'll need the temps in the high 60's I believe. Kerosene or elec space heater might do it.
The polyurethane glues are pretty messy. They react to moisture in the air, foam up and expand. They can drive your joints apart not to mention the clean up problems. The diisocyanates can have some serious respiratory health issues. The plastic urea resin is a brown powder you mix with water. It can be difficult to make a smooth mix and the water can play havoc with veneer. Both glues are hard and brittle when dry. Of all the different choices I would not use either of these glues for your application.
I agree. Which would you use?
I think yellow carpenters glue (aliphatic resin) would work for you. Are you using veneer tape to align the pieces? You can fold the pieces back for edge glueing. I would make a simple press by placing a sheet of wax paper, a 3/4" piece of ply wood and a couple of cinder blocks on top for weight. The thinner the veneer the less likely for future movement. You can get the extended setting type glue but you still have to be organized and quick. I use those inexpensive natural bristle brushes and cut off the bristles with scissors for a stiff brush. Don't over do the glue just a nice thin even coat. If you think it will be cold just bring it in the house overnight. I am just guessing at some of the particulars of your chess board. If this is a really large board or thick end grain blocks then things change. The urea resin will give you the longest working time but you need to practice. I would try any of the methods you chose on a practice piece first. Contact cement is a choice as are some of the 3M spray adhesives.
If the plastic resin glue you are using does not readily mix into a smooth consistancy your glue is out of date. The shelf life of PPR (powdered plastic resin) is about one year after opening. I've used some that is three years old that's still good but that will depend entirely on storage conditions. The indicator that it's gone over the edge is the inabitity to make a smooth mixture.
Lee
"The indicator that it's gone over the edge is the inabitity to make a smooth mixture." I tend to think it's when you open the lid and you find a hard block of stuff that you can hammer nails in with, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha. But yes, I'd agree in general, in that it is when you can't mix it properly that you know for sure it's out of date. Slainte.Website
I've never had it harden in the bucket, Sgian. But then again, I live in the high desert, not the soggy south or the drenched UK.
I was having a discussion with my supplier of PPR, he enlightened me to the mixability factor. It's amazing...if I keep my ears unclogged some information finds it's way through the fog and sticks...Hah, hah, ha...you can teach an olde dog new tricks.
Lee
Pat,
You need to do this glue-up in a warmer enviornment. Mid fifties will put your results at high risk, very high risk.
Many glues will work, PVAs like Titebond, plastic resin, epoxy, liquid hide glue, they will all work well but the temperature must be around 70 for decent results.
Of all of the above my first choice would be the liquid hide glue.
Lee
I have used plastic resin glue with great success.It was very easy to mix and apply.You do need to have parts that fit well though. Plastic resin glue does need to cure at over 70 degrees to be effective.If your shop is cooler, an old trick is to place an electric blanket around your project while curing.
Mike
If I really had to choose a glue for your project, I'd pick hide glue. Thin, rock-hard glueline but always repairable.
When the veneer needs repair, hide glue is still the only one out there that dissolves it's own residue. Makes it invaluable for those round-tenon joints in chairs, too.
Thanks for the help everyone! Hide glue sounds like a great way to go...but can't quite swing the $$$ for the glue pot yet (my wife would probably end me if I melted glue in one of our cooking pots ha,ha,ha,)...maybe for the next one! I think I'll try the electric blanket trick...see how it goes.
Thanks again!
pat
Any double boiler on a hot plate works fine....use Mama's candy thermometer and keep it at 120 degrees or so....and under 160 degrees:
by Adam Cherubini
Hide glue is absolutely reversible. It can be reconstituted with hot water. When a chair's joints are loose, chances are the tenons shrunk and caused the problem, so here's what I recommend:
First, recognize that hide glue is the only solution. Titebond only develops full bond strength on bare wood (not wood saturated with hide glue) and it requires a high bond pressure (which your old shrunk tenons aren't going to give you).
Second, hot hide glue offers the advantage of reconstituting the existing glue. The cold commercial glues (e.g. Franklin's) just won't be as effective at reactivating the old glue. Plus, the stuff that makes hide glue liquid at room temperature (table salt or urea) also makes it weaker. Franklin's hide glue is nothing more than dry hide glue and urea. Some guys use it as an additive to their hot glue to increase working time.
Prepare the chair:Scrape off the loose chunks of hide glue. Don't remove any wood! Don't try to remove all the glue by sanding. Dry fit the tenons and consider shimming. You could use veneer or even a piece of paper as a shim (don't use masking tape).
Prepare the glue:You can purchase hide glue dry from most good woodworking supply places. I recommend getting the lowest available gram strength (#135), since, although weaker, it offers the longest open time. Highland Hardware sells #190 (+/-) which is fine.
Don't get wrapped up in the $80 glue pot dilemma. If you search WoodCentral's archives you'll find plenty of alternatives. If you find you like using hide glue, you might want to invest in a more elegant way to heat your glue. Otherwise, I offer this low tech solution:
Pick a glass jar out of the recycling can. Run it through the dishwasher to ensure it's clean (grease hurts hide glue's strength). Put an inch or two of dry glue in the bottom of the jar, then cover the glue with tap water. Let it sit overnight or at least 4 hours or so. The glue will absorb the water. If there is still free water in there after several hours, pour the excess water down the drain, or if your wife is looking, in your garden (it's a natural fertilizer and completely safe environmentally- tell her you're composting!). The cold wet glue should be gloppy, but it will become more liquid after you heat it.
An hour before work, start heating your glue. Put the jar into a sauce pan of water. Heat the sauce pan on your kitchen stove. The glue temp should be 120-160 degree F. The water in the sauce pan, therefore, should be hotter than you want to wash your hands in, but not boiling (or even close). If you overheat your glue (boil it), it will be ruined (even though it might look okay). Check it from time to time, and if, it's still gloppy, add a little water and stir. But don't add water to cold glue. Remember it's consistency changes as it heats up. For your application, you want your glue pretty watery before use. (The watery glue gives you more open time and will also reconstitute the old glue better. It will also run. Don't wipe it! Wait until it gells, then wait a little longer (maybe 30 minutes total). Poke at the drips and runs with your marking knife. Make sure they are a solid rubbery mass; not at all liquid inside. Slice the drips around the joint, then peel the drips off. If you don't slice, you may pull the glue clean out of the joint (that's bad). The excess glue should come off like rubber cement off polished steel. Done at the right time, there will be no effect on the existing finish (good for antiques) and a new finish can be applied over this region with no further prep. You can throw the glue drips, back into the glue pot. If you wait until the morning after, you'll find your hide glue more like epoxy than titebond. It cures to a chisel destroying hardness. If you must attack cured hide glue, please wear safety glasses. Its so glassy, that it chips and shatters.)
Using the glue:Bring the hot sauce pan to your shop and place it near the work on a glue pot trivet (scrap wood). Right before you glue, wet the hide glue encrusted joints with hot water. (Dunk in sauce pan). This will reactivate the hide glue and will also provide more working time. You can apply the fresh glue using a clean disposable paint brush. Depending on your environmental conditions, this hide glue is going to give you a couple of minutes of open time before it gels (more if it's hot and humid). Work quickly, but don't panic. If you blow it, take the chair apart immediately. You can always start over. The gelled glue can be thrown back in the pot or reconstituted with fresh glue on the next attempt. The glue will reach full strength the following day.
The morning after:The next day you will find your brush permanently stuck in the glue jar. Don't throw this out! If you have more gluing to do, you can reheat the jar in the same manner as before. You may have to add a bit of water after it heats up. If you find you've added too much water, cook it longer before using. You can continue to reheat your glue day after day until it molds (I've gone weeks). You can also put your jar in the refrigerator and it will keep for months.
If you spend a little time getting to know hide glue, I'm sure you'll find its a great thing to work with. As you can tell, I really like it. I use it all the time and find it convenient for everything except gluing up table tops (I can't get the clamps on fast enough).
. . . Adam
Edited 11/12/2003 10:42:29 PM ET by Bob
Edited 11/12/2003 10:43:55 PM ET by Bob
Bob,
That is one of the best posts about any subject I have ever come across. Is it a repost from Adam?
Somewhere else on a forum was a post about Knox Gelatin being the same as hide glue. That's intriguing and I'm going to try that this weekend.
It's amazing how many workers never having used hide glue, once having "discovered" it never use anything else. Thanks for describing that low-tech method of preparation. It's a shame that anyone would delay using hide glue because they don't have an electric glue pot.
VL
It's merely a cut-and-paste from the Woodcentral website...but it's succinct, well-written and reflects my experience.
I remain amazed that even sophisticated sites like Woodweb and others still have inaccurate notions and poor information on hide glue....there's a darn good reason it's still around from the times of ancient Egypt.
I think it would be a mistake to think that hide glue is the ultimate solution to glue issues. It is one of many glues I use in my day to day woodworking. It's great for some things and lousy for others.
I never met a glue I didn't like...
Leehttp://www.furniturecarver.com
And I agree with that fully.
I really don't use it for much other than crossgrain joints on chairs, so don't read me wrong here.
Cross grain joints is one area where I would not recommend a hide glue. Hide glue has no flexibilty generally. As a cross grain joint "works" with seasonal changes, the glue becomes brittle and fails.
PVA adhesives, on the other hand, do remain somewhat flexible and tend to hold up better in cross grain situations.
Hide glue is just one type of adhesive. It has positives and negatives. So do all other adhesives. The negative with PVA adhesives is their flexibiity leads the "creep" which is a problem with panel glue ups and some types of joints. However, PVA are probably the best all round adhesives that the general consumer can get.
No argument on the tech specs...but renewing PVA chair joints is a bit of a challenge...especially after somebody has attempted a half dozen repairs already....usually requires drilling/plugging/splicing/recutting joint.
Unless you have some secret here I am unaware of.
Every crossgrain glue joint will eventually fail...flexible epoxy will last the longest, but it, too will probably fail. My humble design and construction attempts to take that into account.
Edited 11/14/2003 7:17:55 PM ET by Bob
>> Every crossgrain glue joint will eventually fail.
Does that include plywood?
Edited 11/16/2003 8:56:31 PM ET by Uncle Dunc
What's plywood?
See any anywhere?
http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594266/36811571.jpg
Edited 11/16/2003 10:06:20 PM ET by Bob
I see a whole wall of pegboard, (fiberboard) which I rate a notch or two below plywood...Hah, hah, ha...
I've got a ton of it in my workshop too.
Leehttp://www.furniturecarver.com
Yup. Cheap, efficient and convenient.
The bottom line is always the product, not the shop it's made in or how many thousands in expensive tools of the latest trends it took to do it.
I did buy 33 acres of trees and a sawmill earlier in my life....plywood is merely an occasional event in my later days.
Edited 11/17/2003 10:29:18 AM ET by Bob
Howie, You bring up a good point, a point I've chewed on quite a few times;
Is a more flexible glue like PVA a better choice for a joint like a mortice and tenon than a rigid glue like hide glue in spite of PVA's unreparability (is that a word...should be...)?
I select glues based on the quality of the piece, the characteristics of the glue needed and the long range outlook for the outcome. If it's a high dollar piece my first choice is hide glue, it it needs a long open time it's liquid hide glue, short open time gets hot hide glue...lams get liquid hide glue or PPR. However, I still buy PVA by the gallon, it's easier in every respect to use.
Truthfully, I'm not convinced PVA will endure better than hide glue in a crossgrain joint but I certainly can see the arguement, I've ran it through my mind a number of times. I generally use the hide glue simply because it's more readily repaired down the road.
Leehttp://www.furniturecarver.com
Different adhesives have different properties and these differing properties can make one adhesive better for a certain joint than another.
As to the issue of "repairability", if an adhesive is used that eliminates the need to repair or, at least minimizes the need to repair, that would be the one to use for a particular application. Sure, hide glue is easy to repair but it has limited longevity so it needs to be repaired. In the shop I was involved with we produced a line of semi-custom furniture sold by a high end interior designer to the carriage trade. For chairs, which probably get the most stress of any piece of furniture and have the biggest consequences from failure, we would only use slow set, two part epoxy. We never had a failure with that adhesive. We made the M&T and other joints a little sloppy as epoxy glue needs a little bit of film line for best strength.
I also use epoxy glue for the repair of all chairs no matter what the prior adhesive. Epoxy will bond over a joint previously glued with any glue and it is truly gap filling. It is a permanent repair. If for any reason the joint failed, just repair it again with epoxy.
The only time hide glue is used is when the item is truly a certified antique, rather than just old.
My point is, why use an adhesive that will eventually fail due to moisture changes, age and long term stress. It was the best the old timers had, but todays adhesives are significantly better. There are relatively few reasons to use a hide glue these days.
For any cross grain type of joint in all items except chairs, I tend to use plain old consumer grade PVA yellow adhesive. I think its slight amount of flexibitity will make for a longer lived joint. For panel glue ups I use urea formaldehyde to eliminate creep, for laminating multiple layers of composition materials and for laminating formica, I use solvent based contact cement and for chairs, repairs and waterproof joints I use slow set, two part epoxy. The rules of fairly short cross grain joints still applies.
If I could only have one adhesive, it would be the epoxy, probably.
Howie,
For me the jury's still out on the longevity of epoxy and PVA. It's easy to compare initial strengths but that's really not the issue, all of them are stronger than the wood. The real issue is "How long will it last before it needs repair." I've repaired plenty of failed epoxy and PVA joints throughout my years. These glues do fail.
There is a ton of woodwork that will never be repaired, it will be tossed and replaced. For this furniture expediency is a real concern and PVA and epoxy is a good choice. If, however, a piece gets to be 50 years old and a hide glue joint fails it can be easily repaired with hide glue. "Easily" is the keyword here, if it means sraping a joint to remove old glue or complete dissassembly a piece will often get scrapped.
Lee
http://www.furniturecarver.com
As I also build a boats occasionally and did stockmaking for a couple-three decades, I have a passing familiarity with epoxy, probably the most flexible of glues.
But I wouldn't kid myself that any stressed, untapered round tenon joints done with it won't fail. They will at some point in time....it's the nature of the joint.
And the good news about a good 4-1 epoxy like West or Acraglass, is that with dismantling and sanding for key, it will adhere to itself. But never as well as the original joint when done properly with a wetting coat (I do that stage under light heat for deeper penetration) followed immediately by a thickened coat for maximum gap filling.
And while epoxy has some effectiveness adhereing to glue-contaminated joints, those joints never approach the strength of a proper joint done with any woodworking glue. Witness user-repaired gunstock cracks where the aliphatic or cyano residue has to be routed out for a proper repair....often requiring new wood to be let in....all after, of course, the actual cause of the crack was discovered and remedied.
Edited 11/16/2003 1:02:54 AM ET by Bob
Howie, all very well for you to expound on the wonders of the epoxy glues you've used, and how good it is. But you're still alive and writing about it, therefore your viewpoint is by definition short-term and you're not including the important aspect of longevity that's a part of some furniture-- like being 200 or three hundred years, or more old..
If I assume that you are 70 years old, and that you've been a woodworker for 50 of those years, and you can report that all the joints you epoxied together in 1953 are as good today as the day you glued them, then I'll be impressed.
As far as I know, all glue joints eventually fail, and some joints are easier to fix and re-glue than others. Failed epoxied joints are one of the toughest to fix, and I've seen plenty of failed epoxied joints.
Joints assembled with hide glue, even if they're a couple of hundred years old are a breeze in comparison. I can't recall repairing any furniture from the early 1800's that originally had joints put together with epoxy resin, ha, ha.
Don't get me wrong. I love epoxy type glues, along with every other type, when used appropriately, but I've never considered it to be especially permanent. Slainte.Website
Richard, always a pleasure to have your comments.
Not quite 70 (maybe 63) and only using epoxy marine adhesives since maybe 1960 when I worked in a boatyard.
We saw may failed joints but all I recall were where epoxied joints had failed when the wood itself failed. In other words, the wood was still attached at the actual glue joint. Later on when I was involved with a shop that made frequent items for a custom yacht builder, our only adhesive was epoxy. We made quite a few interior cabinetry items that were frequently glued into the hulls in various ways. Again some things broke loose in storm conditions but the adhesive was not the problem. The wood failed.
I personally have never seen a situation where an epoxy glueline actually failed. But I have with hide glue. Hide glue gets brittle and the glueline itself fails. Any number of times, I've just poured granulated hide glue out of a joint that failed.
Well, I'll keep looking for the perfect adhesive. But, the period of testing keep getting shorter. I also wonder if the old time cabinetmakers would be using hide glue today? When some of today's furniture furniture made with new adhesives becomes "antiques" in a hundred or so years, will they get repaired with hide glue. I wonder about that too.
Howie, my suggestion that you are 70 was facetious, and really no more than a convenient time marker-- but it looks like I wasn't too far out, and I'm not too far behind you.
Recently, I repaired one of the 'famous' Eames plywood lounge chairs but not the ottoman, which wasn't broken. Herman Miller are awfully snooty about their processes, but any fool with half a brain can tell that the rubber shock mounts are attached to the plywood shell with an epoxy formulation.
It was a nice clean break, and with a bit of cleaning up I was able to effect a decent repair-- which I refused to guarantee------- but I was cheap, so the client was happy to take the risk. The alternative to my $350 job was to get a bunch of parts from Herman Miller and reassemble the thing for about $2000.
I do agree that on the whole you'll find hide glue does degenerate and fail, but it so easy to fix, wouldn't you agree? I do also see where the wood has failed using hide glue. I'm really just saying that the reversibilty of hide glue does have some advantages over eopxy formulations, but that's not to say that epoxy glues are in any way inferior.
There's more than one way to skin a cat (to use that trite old truísm.) Slainte.Website
ok-I just took apart an antique chair to reglue. I would have reached for the yellow glue, wiped every joint with a generous brush and clamped for a couple hours.
However,I am enjoying this discussion and you can teach an old cat new tricks...
It is obviously hide glue and every glue joint in the entire chair has failed.
Would you repair with:
yellow glue
hide glue or
epoxy (any special brand of epoxy?)
thanks, silver
Sorry silver. I missed your post from 12 days past. I don't often log on and usually browse anonymously so sometimes questions directly at me get missed, especially as it's sometimes days between looking in.
In response to your question, I'd probably use hide glue to repair and reassemble your chair, particularly as you say it is an antique, and also because it was assembled with the stuff in the first place, and lastly because I use hide glue a lot anyway and it's always about.
Not all antiques are valuable of course, but the hide glue would probably work just fine for me. Slainte.Website
Silver,
In additionto Richard's (Sgian's) guidelines, hide glue is the only adhesive of which I am aware which will bond to itself: with other glues, one has to carefully remove all traces of old glue before making a repair.
Paul
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Edited 11/30/2003 7:21:00 PM ET by jazzdogg
slightly off the subject,what is the best way to extend the setting time of pva glue?
Edited 3/31/2005 11:12 pm ET by sawman1
Lee,
I said,
"It's amazing how many workers never having used hide glue, once having "discovered" it never use anything else. "
Yes, it sure sounds like I said hide could be used for everything. Those sure are my words there. Oh, my. That's not at all what I meant to say.
Let me have another try at this. My dad used to use fish glue and hide glue. Now, I haven't seen (or smelled) fish glue in a long, long time. Talk about filling the shop with a particular aroma! We had one glue pot that had several "inserts" which held the glue mixture and dropped into the heater base. I suppose fish glue is very similar to hide glue - a complex proteinaceous mixture that has marvelous properties for the woodworker.
I haven't made many chairs (probably need to rectify that). Most of my work involves tables, box construction of various sorts. I use hide glue for most joinery in these pieces. Gluing up wide blanks from narrow planks, mortise and tenon, etc. While I prefer exposed joinery and love to be able to show the mechanics of the piece, where a joint line needs to be invisible, I have found that hide glue is superior to anything else I use.
It's joint strength is excellent and with a properly-prepared joint, I can get a hairline glue line that simply disappears with final planing and finishing. That just does NOT happen with any other glue other than epoxy which I use on tropical hardwoods.
Now, back to my unfortunate choice of words . . . I meant that, workers, once they discover the superior properties of hide, in the applications in which it shines, never use anything else in those kinds of projects.
I feel much better now!
VL
Edited 11/15/2003 1:01:10 PM ET by Venicia L
Venicia,
I understand what you're saying. I've never met a glue I didn't like. Use whatever works well for you and enjoy the smell. Ahhh, that homey smell is like none other, especially the bucket of water after a few days. My dogs love it!
Leehttp://www.furniturecarver.com
Hold the phone, Pat...Franklin makes a premixed liquid hide glue, you no longer need to cook your own hides, chicken beaks, rabbit's feet and road kills. Frankiln's Liquid Hide Glue comes ready to use, like that yellow stuff...PVA.
Lee
I've used it...it's handy for new work done on a small scale.
But like the real thing, it too needs to be heated for repair jobs where it has to dissolve the old residue.
Just an aside to remember.
I'm enjoying this thread and learning things about glue I didn't know...after making shavings
for over 30 years. A thanks to all for the enlightment...
I encountered some plastic resin that would't mix twice this summer and wondered:What's up with this?
Just old...ha
cheers,
silver
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