I’ve made a few hand saws and whenever I show them around, people stare at the teeth and ask me how in the world I cut them.
I find that a bit annoying as cutting the teeth is the easiest part of making a hand saw. For me (lacking power tools) the single hardest and most complex part is making the handle. I spend hours on each handle.
Apparently, this is true for other saw makers, and its preventing them from bringing new saws to the market.
My suggestion was to make injection molded handles and I’m wondering what you all think of that.
Now our experience with plastic tool handles is generally bad, I agree. But that’s just because the manufacturers’ are clueless. Beautifully sculpted handles resembling my hand made saw handles could be injection molded to produce all the complexity and detail for a fraction of the cost of a wooden handle.
Depending on the material chosen, the handles could be user modifiable and repairable. Fashion colors, including something that looked a bit like rosewood maybe, wouldn’t be out of the question.
So the question is, if it were offered, would you be open to purchasing a high end tool with a plastic handle? Or would you just be turned off by it just because its plastic?
Adam
P.S. I’m just curious about what you think. I have no financial motives here, despite how this question may sound.
Replies
To me a "high end tool" is something which is a pleasure to use, in that it feels right and in balance and has qualities of use which make it the tool of choice.
It would not be a bad idea to sell saws without a handle with the manufacturer offering various handles in different configurations to suit the needs of the customer as to hand size, angle and weight. Injection molding of those should keep costs down whilst the availability of variations may appeal to some.
Quite some time ago I modified the nose of my tenon saws by removing teeth for the first inch at the nose and sharpening that area, to provide a built in marking knife for dovetails and to make starting cuts easier by drawing back and forth before making full cuts. I thought it a good idea and it does away with the "guide with the thumb" business, but I do not suppose anyone tried it.
There is no profit in being a prophet.
Who are you and what did you do with Adam?
Adam,
Wasn't I just reading that you won't use a metal body plane, but here you are saying that you would use a plastic handled saw? After following (and enjoying) your most recent blog this seems to fly in the face of everything you preach. Preach might not be the right word.
I understand what you are proposing and, personally, as a hobbyist, if I could get a high quality saw at a significantly reduced price via a plastic handle, I would probably buy one.
-Chuck
Didn't you once come up with an idea about plastic injection-molded molding plane bodies? Wow, I flashed back on that. Maybe that was when Larry Williams developed his extreme and often somewhat bewildering animus toward everything that you write,...
I'm interested in the Millers Falls line of "Permaloid" handled tools (the type 209 deluxe, the "Parsons Brace," the screwdrivers, chisels, hacksaw, etc.,) and I have most of them except a good copy of a 209 (sells for about $1000 on ebay if in good condition), but in general I don't usually care for plastic handles. I've been replacing plastic handles on some of my Sandvik chisels with turned wooden ones over the years. I doubt I'd be very warm to plastic handsaw handles. Very smooth polished applewood just has more soul.
But good luck with your idea anyway. If you see Larry coming, buckle on the flak jacket.
I don't think I'd like to hold styrene, but maybe if it was something like the stuff they made North Bros. brace head's and handles out of it would be cool.
Better yet, sell a "kit" - rough cut handles with holes drilled that leave it to the woodworker to carve rasp and sand to a custom shape. Write some detailed instructions once, and include it in every pack for those who have no experience or particular talent hand shaping wood.
Better yet, sell a "kit" - rough cut handles with holes drilled that leave it to the woodworker to carve rasp and sand to a custom shape. Write some detailed instructions once, and include it in every pack for those who have no experience or particular talent hand shaping wood.
Both Tools for Working Wood and us have kits available.
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=GT-DKIT.XX&Category_Code=TMQ
http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/kits.html
Both sites have instructions as well we have a series of pictures that briefly show how we shape handles.
Take care, Mike
That's definitely something I'm interested in.
I think you've noted recently that you have become so popular that there is bit of lead time for many of your saws. Are you able to ship kits more readily than finished saws or is there a significant lead time for kits too?
I think I need a half back, and a new dovetail saw, and a tenon saw. Oh, a really good full sized rip would be awesome ... and ...
Samson,
Generally we take in a few kits and then schedule them to be run at the same time. This normally lessens the wait.
But we are so far behind that isn't an option right at this time. We hope to slowly increase the capacity over the coming months by a move and hiring a couple people--the one person I am looking forward to most is the office person so I am freed up more for the shop. The person hired for the shop will be a great boon as well.
As it is, today I am milling brass and sneaking in here to work on the terrible back log of emails (again has grown to over 200 I need to respond to).
Take care, Mike
Mike,
The email is a well known quagmire in which your whole life can sink, if you are not careful. My last year at work (spit) was email hell, with near 80% time spent dealing with it and only 20% time doing real productive work.
I know your email is a line to orders and so forth; but perhaps your office person will be dealing with it (at least filtering the few you might personally want to deal with)?
Email is a modern trap. I have seen whole organisations sucked under by it.
Lataxe, who knows how to use the delete button with vigour and vim.
Kids today-
next thing you know they'll be puttin plastic cabrio legs on your highboy.
sheeeshSettle Down People... Settle Down
If I read the description of their kits properly, you would be getting all of the parts. All of the hand work, including the sharpening, would be done by you. The sharpening could be done for an extra $10. so you're looking at a 10-20% discount that would probably cost you several hours (if this is your first saw) and result in a final product that may be, depending on your skill, below the standard of quality the Wenzloff saws demand for their premium.
Let's take a long half back as an example - $120 for the kit (plus $10 sharpened)
$185 for the finished version
$55 savings for the "work" of shaping the handle -- i.e., 30% off
I put work in quotes, because some hobbiests might enjoy the process and satisfaction it brings. They might also enjoy the one of kind - tailored fit aspect. And not to boast, but I consider myself reasonably adept at wood sculpting tasks.
P.S. We have the same birthday. Happy belated. Still 29? Me too.
Edited 10/17/2007 3:59 pm ET by Samson
I chose to look at the small tenon saw $140 vs. $105 + $10 = 18% off. After looking at the comparisons a little more it looks like 20-30% would have been a better quote. My apologies. I certainly won't argue that many hobbiests would prefer the challenge.
And there is much more involved with the kits than just shaping the handles.
Edited 10/17/2007 4:41 pm ET by MattInPA
I just read the instructions. It sounds like most woodworkers of intermediate skills with hand tools could handle it - so to speak. That said, the more I think about it, I'd be wanting 40 to 50% off to mess with it. Otherwise I'd rather spend the time making furniture and just poney up the extra $50.
I just updated my profile, I'm 30 now. They should really have a birth year vs. age.
I threw a surprise 30th birthday party for my wife on the day she turned 29. Afterall, who doesn't wish they were only 29 at their 30th? She kept insisting to the people at the party that she was, indeed, only 29. Our neighbor, who is the youngest 94 your've ever seen, told my wife "don't worry about it, I've been 29 for years."
I don't doubt that there is a market for plastic saw handles. But I highly doubt that this feature would discount the saw significantly. If it cut as well as a Wenzloff and were reviewed to be it's equal in that regard, the discount would be nominal. Especially if the resulting line formed.
Edited 10/17/2007 5:17 pm ET by MattInPA
..For me (lacking power tools) the single hardest and most complex part is making the handle. I spend hours on each handle.
Apparently, this is true for other saw makers, and its preventing them from bringing new saws to the market.
Naw, not true Adam. I asked a couple questions on WoodCentral and so won't repeat them here. I will add here that there are darn few handles we wouldn't replicate. Entire saws for that matter. The few right off I wouldn't remake are being made by others or ones I don't consider a strong design (like a couple Bishop models).
The examples on the web site are just that, examples of categories of saws to begin dialog. Cannot take pictures of all we have made.
Concerning plastic handles, the tooling costs alone would prevent a wide variety of handle styles. While wood can be as easily shaped to replicate nearly any handle ever made for the same basic cost to the maker--the maker making them by hand anyway.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
You nailed it on this one - although you didn't repeat the point that you made elsewhere that a wood handle feels better and is less slippery in the hand than plastic - and that point bears repeating because I don't think I would want a plastic saw handle. Adam,I don't know of a single professional saw maker that only uses hand tools to make their handles (we certainly don't) and it seems to me even if they did, before they leap into very expensive molding a few power tools might speed up the process in wood. Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
Adam,
I'd stick to the wood handles. Just personal preferance.
How much of the price of a finished saw do you think is in the handle? I would need to save at least 33% off of the full price to consider one. Probably more to buy one. This may be a little vain, but it is what it is. I have paid for embelishments before. Just like your customers probably have.
I think that you would be more successful selling a backed blade that is handless, not a kit that only has all of the parts. I don't think that many boutiques that make these high end models will want to put their stamp on a plastic handle. Many offer upgrades, I don't know that I've seen any downgrades. Afterall, would you be willing to make a cabinet that has interior surfaces that aren't perfectly flat? :)
That being said...I think that Holtey has a plane on his site with a resin tote and knob, so good luck.
Adam,
I cut the general handle shape with a scroll saw and then it's all hand tools from there. A footpedal scrollsaw would probably work just as well or even a bowsaw/turning saw. I can rasp out a tote in a few hours, then onto the fine work. I Should add though that this is the part I enjoy the most.
I use a drill press for the holes but again a brace and eggbeater would probably be fine, especially in skilled hands.
The first tote is from the Gramercy dovetail saw kit and the second is a copy of one of my favorite Atkins totes. (Apologies, I uploaded the first file twice)
Michael
The most comfortable saw I have is a Sandvik with a plastic handle. It's rounded nicely and fits my hand fine.
Plastic wouldn't bother me.
Adam,
My dad had an old Disston (I think) handsaw that had a plastic handle on it. If you remember the old Remington "Nylon 66" .22 rifle's stock that came out that yr ('66), the handle looked sorta like that. Burgundy, with black swirly marbleized stripes- rosewoodish? The saw was considerably older than the 60's though. I guess maybe it was somewhat of a novelty at the time, "Look, a saw that doesn't have a wooden handle!-- Modern!!" And my recollection is that it was pretty comfortable, it was shaped just like the typical disston wood handle of the time. Unfortunately, I don't have it, guess the old man got rid of it before he moved in with us. Or maybe it disintegrated, I recall that one of the horns was sorta crumbly...
Nowadays, a plastic handled saw wouldn't have the same cachet that it had back in the 50's, in my opinion.
Last summer, I had the experience of hanging a plastic (vinyl) screen door. One of those plastic bodied planes "wood" have been just the ticket for working that stuff. Kept sticking to the sole of the old Stanley..
Ray
Adam might be thinking of a rigid handle that combines engineering plastic with stainless steel and is covered by strong, lightweight magnesium alloy panels. The handle would be ergonomically shaped and positioned to sustain the woodworking tradition of excellent holding comfort and sure-fire operation. The bulbous grip and rubber skin would further contribute to excellent holding comfort, and a black satin finish would heighten the look of elite quality. (Source: Description of a Canon EOS 10D digital SLR camera with slight modifications)Chris Scholz
Atlanta, GA
Galoot-Tools
Chris,
Sounded like a description of a Glock pistol's grip to me.
Ray
Well, I figure if it is good enough for a Glock and for professional photo gear, it would probably work for woodworking tools too.Chris Scholz
Atlanta, GA
Galoot-Tools
Chris,
Must make the blades from titanium alloy-light weight, less tiring to carry concealed in Dereks kydex saw holster.
Ray
Adam,
Have you checked into the price of a die for injection molded plastic saw handles? From what I understand of this business, they're tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars. You'd have to sell a lot of saws to make an investment like that pay off..
Zolton
* Some people say I have a problem because I drink hydraulic brake fluid. But I can stop any time I want.
Hello, I'm new to the forum and while working in the shop tonight, I came across a box full of different hammer heads that need new handles. I've purchased most of the correct replacement handles and wonder what is the correct way to replace handles? Anyway nice forum and good to be here.
Nickel,
I see your post is addressed to me - but I'm at a loss to explain why. I have no expertise or experience in re-handling hammerheads. There are likely quite a few other Knotters on this forum who have done this (and have opinions about it!).
Also, your post is buried at the end of thread about saw handles. May I suggest starting a new thread with "Re-handling hammerheads" in the title? You'd get a lot more response that way.
And welcome to Knots! You'll learn a lot here if you stick around...
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/z_pdf/restore/RestoringHammers-BobSturgeon-ne.pdf
Samson,
Very good article. Thanks for posting it. Sturgeon didn't mention it, but when I select a hammer/axe/pick handle I like to look at the end grain and pick a handle with the growth rings parallel with the line of swing. Not quite sure of the rationale for that except that is the way my dad picked his handles.
GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
Call me narrow minded, but personally I prefer a quality saw to have a quality handle;slelect piece of timber to begin with and some thought put into the ergonomics of the hand to tool interface. While I can see the advantages of using a mass producable handle to speed completion time, personally I'd look to perhaps using CNC wood handles rather than injection moulding...
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
So the question is, if it were offered, would you be open to purchasing a high end tool with a plastic handle? Or would you just be turned off by it just because its plastic?
Adam
Great idea, but I don't think that you are taking the concept far enough.
Shocking Pink, Electric Blue... this may sound exciting but what about Leopard Skin, Zebra, and Cauliflower (for the vegetarians). Day-Glo lets you save electricity.
Now I am thinking slip covers for LN and Wenzloff saws. Cover that old fashioned wood. Something along the lines of a mobile phone cover. Hey ... Leather!!
What about a plastic slip cover with a woodgrain finish?! That wood (get it?) be clever. Don't like original Bubinga ... get the one of your heart's desire. Get a different one for each day of the week!
Saw holsters for belts - carry your dovetail saw around, at the ready for a quick bit of detail cutting. Pretend you are Bob Smalser.
The ideas are limitless.
Must go now ... Gotta take my medication... coming nurse ..
Regards from Perth
Derek
As long as we're going the "custom" plastic tote route it would certainly be easy enough to embed an iPod into each handle. Then we could drown out the sound of our sawing.Michael
Ain't there enuf plastic in this world awready?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I guess I don't think there are enough quality hand tools available. Using plastic may be a way to reproduce tools previously made by hand. 18th c tools in general are fairly complex. To some extent, the metal plane was invented to do away with the time consuming, skilled labor required to build wooden planes. Nothing has changed in that regard. It still requires a fair amount of time and skill to build a wooden plane, or make a really good saw handle. Plastic could be used to mold these complex features, resulting in a tool more closely following traditional hand made shapes at a fraction of the cost of doing it the old fashioned way.
Full disclosure: I spoke with a manufacturer who shall remain nameless, who told me handles are preventing or delaying the introduction of new products. My suggestion of plastic wasn't met with much enthusiasm (not surprisingly). But one can't help but wonder why. Functionally, it could be a better handle than a wooden one (which are often plastic coated). Surely there are technical hurdles, but I'm certain they can be overcome. I'm just wondering how high the cultural hurdle is, and you guys are giving me a sense for that.
When you ask a question Bob, you've gotten different answers than you would have gotten 10 years ago. Woodworking is changing. Obviously, its important to recognize those changes. But there are also things we can do today to shape the changes. For myself, I'd like to see traditional tools available in the quality and price that would allow more woodworkers to work as I do. I'd like to see what few high school shop classes that still exist have the opportunity to purchase really great, slightly indestructible hand tools. And if it takes plastic to do that .....well ...I guess I care more about the work than the tools.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts everybody.
Adam
Edited 10/19/2007 11:50 am ET by AdamCherubini
Adam -I think the conundrum here is the fact that you lament the time it takes to make wood handles by hand, and then make the double or triple step leap to plastic handles. If you are considering plastic handles, why would you not consider bringing some machine efficiency to the making of wood handles? Certainly a few jigs and a profile bit could speed the process tremendously. Final shaping could be done by hand. What got me is that your reason for wanting to go to plastic seemed contradictory if you would consider plastic in the first place. Does that make any sense? For the record, I would not buy a saw with a plastic handle. I like the feel of wood in my hands (should I retype that?), and would no more like a plastic handled saw than plastic handled chisels, or plastic plane handles. I know you are a purist, but what is more out of place in your shop, a router table and spindle sander, or a injection molding machine?
I'm not making saws with plastic handles. I'm not selling the saws I make. This question isn't about me, Joe. Its about your grandchildren. Thanks for your opinion though. Adam
Adam,
I read your post about the perceived value of a tool with plastic handles and it made me think of a Microplane rasp. I don't know if you have ever used one but it is very well made tool that is inexpensive compared to other rasps on the market. However, just out of curiosity, I wonder what the people here on Knots think of this tool since it has plastic handles? Would it be considered a high end tool? Lately a lot of people are scrambling to get the last of the Auriou rasps since the company is presently out of business. Some of these Auriou rasps are upwards of $70 yet the Microplane is priced under $15.00. I'd love to do a side by side comparison of the two to see if the Auriou is worth five times the cost of a Microplane.
I have several Microplane rasps. The first one I bought had a hardwood handle and the latter ones were plastic! Adam: was this a test run before influencing current sawmakers?
Was this a test run before influencing current sawmakers?No. I just wanted a sense for what you all thought. I figured you'd all hate the idea and what I found was that you were much more open minded overall. Plastics may be required in the future. I mean, I'm a wood bigot, but i can see the value in having tools that lots of people can afford, or tools that more closely replicated the highly optimized, complex 18th c shapes.Adam
The way I look at it is, maybe it will bring the price of premium saws down! Then we could use the plastic as a beginning pattern for making your own. Quite frankly, I have few tools that are used, that I have not "customized" the handle a bit (includes most hand saws and chisels, exceptions are iron planes).
Handtool users should look at the evolution of gun stocks: yes the majority of long arms still have wood stocks, but a significant number have synthetic stocks. Many of the synthetics look and feel quite similar to wood, without many of the drawbacks. Decent synthetics cost more than entry level wood, but have more pluses including stability than wood.
Synthetic gunstocks can be simplistically relegated into a couple categories. First there are the junk synthetics used on cheap rifles used to keep the costs down.
Second are the really good sythetics chosen as much for their shock absorbtion as the stability. At the mid- to higher-end of those, the synthetics are as if not more costly than wood counterparts (at least to the consumer). Too, there are some details/styles that would be difficult to pull-off in wood.
Unless one goes off-shore for the plastics and buys a gazillion handles of a single style, I don't think there is a cost savings to be had. I don't think for a saw destined for shop work that stability is a high necessity (not in the sense of rifle stocks). I'm probably wrong.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
Got to admit that some of those synthetic stocks make you wonder if they're wood or plastic! Of all the guns I own (a lot), I do not have a synthetic stock.
It would be nice to see the handtool market large enough that a synthetic handle could be considered (even though I would not have one), but the economics are not there. I was invloved in a company a few years back where we were building mouse and rat bait stations. These were injection molded, and the cost of the molds for both was well over $200,000. How many saws could you handle for that sum?
Been a while since we last spoke, but how's my half-back saw coming? I'm holding off starting a "special project" until it's here, but there is no rush as I've been able to cross many "honey do's" off my list (still several more months yet!).
Tony
...but i can see the value in having tools that lots of people can afford, or tools that more closely replicated the highly optimized, complex 18th c shapes.
This is the part of the quest that I cannot understand in its present wording. There is a certain enforced uniformity that a mold would bring to the table. However, one of the beauties to me of tool handles pre-machinery made is the inherent variability.
On a large scale, the plastics would enable lower cost per-unit...but I am uncertain as to how great a lowered cost that would mean in the way of saw handles.
As with furniture of earlier eras, machines forced certain design changes to enable the machinery to be used. I'm uncertain how that, if it held true for say saw handles, could be used to "replicate the highly optimized, complex 18th c shapes."
Take care, Mike
I'm not sure if its a workable idea or not. Like I said, I'm not making plastic saw handles and I'm not trying to talk you into it. I think there may come a day when we'll need to revisit this though. The number of people interested in working as I do is growing rapidly as my inbox (and likely yours) is evidence. I think we'll soon get to the point where people would like to build a carcass by hand, but simply can't find the tools they need to do so. I think that would be a shame.A basic set of cabinetmakers planes (as evidenced by period inventory data) numbered between 25-65 planes (I have and use over 200, a number not unheard of in the 18th c). Saws were more expensive then. But I would be reticent to start a project with fewer than 10. Not including carving tools, I have 30 some chisels in my basic set. (I could probably do with fewer, but again, this is more or less what 18th c craftsmen had). I think its pretty clear the younger generation is leaning toward hand tools more heavily. I think we're going to see hand tool users increase, and possibly see kits like mine in high schools. The judicious use of plastics could help bring tools to market less expensively, in greater numbers, and without sacrificing traditional designs. Molds could be made directly from 18th century tools and near perfect reproductions made if desired.Forget about sustainable forests. Trees multiple without us. The use of antique tools is not sustainable. Nobody makes new centerbits. Before you and I are done with this world, we should do what we can (what you have already started doing) to allow our grandchildren the opportunity to work as we have. The Japanese have a done a good job at maintaining their craft traditions. If plastic tools can help us sustain ours, I'm for em.Adam
Adam,
That's an awesome tool chest! Do you have any more pictures?
Mike
"Nobody makes new centerbits."Actually they do (what sizes do you need) but I cannot imagine why you would want them. I personally have a set, not newly made but barely used - give me an auger bit any day. Or a brad point in a cordless drill. Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
This bit Joel? Adam
PRetty much, except the drawing looks like it has a screw center not a spur. But unfortunately and sadly I misspoke and the catalog says that demand is very low and as they get out of stock they won't be replaced.So if you really want a set call Ray Iles in the UK, I got a complete or nearly complete set of barely used ibbotsons from him a few years ago and IIRC center bits are not collectible, not popular, and not hard to get.
Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
All,So would woodworkers buy a high-end saw with a plastic handle?It seems to me that it depends on what group of woodworkers are being asked.You can go to your local Home Depot and see plastic handles saws at any time. They are not "high end". If they didn't sell, they wouldn't still sell them. Joel made that case for things he sells.What about "Fine Woodworkers"?
I believe that fine woodworkers can be broken down into a few categories. One group is made up of professionals. My experience with professionals is that they will pay anything for a tool if the tool enables them to make enough profit to pay for it. In my few hours a week at Woodcraft, I see the Fein Multimasters literally fly off the shelf. I used to ask the customers why they would pay that many hundred dollars for that little tool, and the answer was: It makes me money." For a REAL professional, the cost of the tool is not the issue, the profit to be made is the issue. Another group of Fine Woodworkers is the group my wife refers to as "The Yuppie Woodworkers". This group will pay just about anything for a tool that they want. They will pay thousands for a collectible plane, or many many hundreds for a nice LN #7. Cost be damned. These tools are toys, and I want my toys. I can't take this money to the grave. I AM GONNA BUY TOOLS!!!!!These are two groups of fine woodworkers who, IMHO, would not be worried about spending another $50 for a $150 tool if they felt like they needed (the professionals) or wanted (the yuppie woodworkers) one. There is the aura of the Auriou rasp, the LN or LV plane, the Marcou plane, the Holtey plane. If a fine woodworker wants one of these things, saving $50 is not part of the question. Indeed, increasing the price would make it even more desirable to the REAL Yuppie Woodworker. If I wanted a "Cherubini Saw", the difference between $150 and $200 is negligable. It is not even worth thinking about. The trick is to make the Yuppie Woodworker want one of those things. Think of Festool. Think of the astronomical prices that Festools go for. People line up to pay that price. No bickering. No sniveling, and no questions. They are HAPPY to pay the price. To sell them the saw, ya gotta make em believe. If the Yuppie Woodworker belongs to your religion, he will be happy to pay the price. These are religious wars that we are discussing here, not rocket science. Yuppie Woodworkers are the guys who pay a grand a week to be in the presence of one of the big names in woodworking. (woodworking classes with rich and famous woodworkers). With the cost of transportation, food, lodging, loss of income for the week, such a "class" can cost upwards of $3000. And in this thread we are talking about saving a measly $50!!!! Real Yuppie Woodworkers WANT to be separated from their money for a desirable tool or service. Tools. Toys. Toys. Tools. I can't tell the difference any more. I enjoy them, and I dare anyone to try to take them away, especially the expensive ones. The only way you are going to take my expensive tools is to pry them from my cold dead hands. (apologies to the NRA).
Mel
PS Have you seen what a real Yuppie Woodworker will pay for a Shapton waterstone? They should be willing to pay as much for a nice backsaw as for a waterstone.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
You forgot that group of guys and girls who have made enough dough to have considerable expendable cash. Not yuppies, but people who use their tools, albeit maybe not as much as a professional, or even as much as a "serious hobbyist (whatever the h _ ll that is!)". These are people who appreciate the feel of quality and can afford to feed that monkey!
T.Z.
Tony,
"You forgot that group of guys and girls who..."Tony, I forget a lot of things.
Now what were we talking about? :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I think this falls under the category of 'yuppie', whether we like the term or not. The groups he forgot is the one that would include a hobby woodworker with the bare essentials and the proffesional shop that's going out of business because they thought that Holtey would turn a profit.
I would pay a few hundred dollars just to see one of these "Fein Multimasters literally fly". Am I a yuppie or just an enthusiast of magical tools?
Matt,
"I would pay a few hundred dollars just to see one of these "Fein Multimasters literally fly". Am I a yuppie or just an enthusiast of magical tools?"One guy bought two of them a few weeks ago. The home repair guys love those Fein Multimasters. The darn cutters can cost over $60 apiece and the contractors buy em by the handful. All smiles. They LOVE em. It lets them make money, and they like that. So are you a yuppie or just an enthusiast of magical tools?
You are what you wanna be. Me. I am not quite a yuppie. I am too cheap for anyone to think of me as a REAL yuppie, but my mind has real leanings in that direction. Certainly both of us, indeed all of us are enthusiasts for fine tools. Who else would hang around here?
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"Fein Multimasters...I bought one last year when installing a very large deck around my sister-in-laws house (She payed for it, I got to keep it for my work).
Her house is HUGE and the deck was installed around two sides and the back. I do not know the actual square footage but know the composite materials for the deck covering and railings alone cost over $15,000 not counting several cases of stainless steel screws.Anyway, I had to cut into the house siding in order to install copper flashing and I needed something to cut flush and scarf cuts. The tool was ideal for this and no tool I had would do it without damaging the surrounding siding. I made a jig to hold the tool so I got clean angles for the scarf cuts.Cutting can be a bit slow and the tool make a lot of noise but I still cannot think of any tool that would work as well for the task.By the way, the sanding attachments suck! At least I did not think they were worth the trouble.
Adam,
How far are you from the Gettysburg, PA area? On Route 30, about 14 miles west of Gettysburg in Fayetteville, there is a very large antique mall comprised of 5 buildings. There are two dealers that have a nice array of tools and one in particular has quite a variety of center bits.
I have quite a number of center bits, and also have a number of Fray/Spofford braces set up with a different size chucked in each (as well as a countersink and screwdriver bit).
Tony
Hi Adam,
I hear what you are saying. And I have viable eco-friendly plans in the works, mainly intended for outdoor saws. "Soon" there will be samples for all to criticise--but me first.
Vintage tools are a finite resource. There is a new crop of wooden planemakers coming to light. Now with the C&W DVD, who knows...maybe even more will take up that mantle. And other new tools, all waiting in the wings. I see a day (sooner than later) people will have more choices than currently--and even currently it is better than 10 years ago.
Perhaps I am simply a fool being more optimistic than you. Perhaps we are seeing different sides of the same problem. Time will tell. I do know that in the absence of dreamers, risk takers to boldy introduce tools, that if there is a demand, someone will step forward to meet it. That in turn spurs others to act.
Nice chest...if I took a picture of my current storage solution...well, it ain't pretty. Just picture multiple cardboard boxes, stuffed to the gills stacked in the corner of our bedroom. Along with a couple works in progress, halted prematurely awaiting the day I both have my shop back and time to do something with them.
Take care, Mike
"There is a new crop of wooden planemakers coming to light."
Are there any other than C&W that make molding planes, sets of hollows and rounds? There has to be, right? So many smoothers...
Hi Matt,
Sets or half sets? Other than the Chinese ones (that do work), not off-the-shelf ones. I have bought a couple planes a couple months ago from Philly Planes (Phil Edwards), a UK maker.
One is a molding plane-sized panel raising plane, the other for long-grain sliding DTs (my purpose is web frames). Both well made, both work very well. I will be ordering a miter block plane in the near future.
Would he make H&Rs and or other molding profiles? Probably. You would need to contact him. As regards molding profiles, we worked off of dead-on photos from an MJD auction where I lost the bid on the two I had him make. Opens a few more doors as to picking profiles.
http://www.phillyplanes.co.uk/
Take care, Mike
It wouldn't matter much to me. Once a piece is completed, how would anybody know if a plastic handled saw was used to build it and if they did would it matter?
Shouldn't the completed project speak for itself? Owning every tool in a bronze and tiger maple handled version is no guarantee of success.
This is not necessarily all directed at you personally Greg, but I am responding to your post.Why does this issue of tools vs. the work performed with them have to be so black and white? Why is it that when somebody expresses an affinity for fine tools or enjoys the collecting of tools along with the woodworking aspects of the craft is there always this camp that jumps in and assumes these people care MORE about the tools than the finished product? If all you care about is the piece that comes out at the end, and don't enjoy the process and working with classic tools that feel good to use, then fine, that's your exercise of the craft and have at it. People can execute masterful work with nothing but a chisel and a mallet, but don't assume that people cannot collect and appreciate fine tools and be "real" woodworkers as well. If you come from a long line of Spartans and take extreme pride in doing the most tasks with the least amount of tools, great. That's you. Part of many peoples' enjoyment of the craft is a few stolen moments in the workshop learning to use different tools and methods that may or may not have an actual application in any furniture projects they are currently working on. By the same token, some people literally cannot afford any tool that they absolutely can do without, and make beautiful pieces. Also great. I think the difference is often found in professional and hobbyists. Pros need to justify everything by cost and profitability, while many hobbyists don't measure things in this manner, because it doesn't matter (i.e. their profit is not in dollars and cents). If you are a pro-woodworker, think of your hobbies, do you collect classic muscle cars, do you have a state-of-the-art entertainment system, all the latest computer gadgets/games, are you a golfer, hunter? I know hunters who have bows, rifles and handguns coming out of their ears, and spend a lot of time maintaining and appreciating their collection, but have limited actual hunting time due to family commitments. Someday, they will hunt all they want. The same goes for me, my workshop is an escape...but it also a retirement plan. I am building it just like I am building my 401(k). I do still stop to smell the roses, just as I try to build pieces in my shop, while also looking forward to doing this all that I want. My dream is to buy a second house in Northern Wisconsin and build EVERY piece of furniture in it. That is obviously not going to happen right now as I have 2 and 4 year old girls, but that doesn't mean I can't plan and practice.Just because I have more fishing equipment than I can use at any given time, it doesn't make me any more or less of a fisherman than Izaak Walton, or my grandfather whose rods and reels I still have. Some people prefer to collect and use fountain pans and write letters...maybe they even write on parchment, who knows? Sure they could just send an email, but they enjoy an aspect of the process that has passed some by. Don't take this diatribe as an attack, because it certainly is not. It's just my take on things that turned into a rambling mission statement.
TPJ, I have to be honest I have some really nice saws but the rubber/composition handled saws are easily more comfortable to hold and use for me. It really isn't even close. I'd much rather break down material with a rubber handled Stanley toolbox saw than I would my Disston. The cheap Stanley is faster, the handle is more comfortable, and I'm less fatigued after using it.
I know I'm supposed to like the Disston more, but I can't help picking up the Stanley when there's a lot of stock that needs to be processed.
Edited 11/18/2007 7:24 pm ET by GregDaCosta
why would you find the " making the teeth' question so annoying?? that is the first question I would ask, as ,I would not have to ask how you made the handle, if it is wood, I am sorry you find us little people so stupid!!
Disstonite?It would be interesting to know why that didn't take. Was it too early, or were there more pragmatic reasons.Joe
Mike:Apropos of old emails... think kindly on mine please.Joe
Hi Joe--nearly to it. Hundreds and hundreds have come in since early June, as well as resurrecting the few hundred from March till June that had to be recovered when the computers had one month apart crashes. Of course, if I didn't look at the forum now and again...
Take care, Mike
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