I’m taking a one week course in using hand tools and will be building a tool chest. To make the dados a plow (plough) plane is used. I don’t own one. Does anyone have a recommendation for plow planes…I haven’t seen too many and Lie Nielson, Clifton and others don’t make them, or at least I haven’t seen them available. Thanks.
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Replies
On the UK ebay site there are always several Record No. 044 up for auction, so I guess the same pertains to US ebay. I got an 044 circa 1940 in nice condition not long ago for £10 (about $20). Good luck in your quest.
NN,
I have the orignal Stanley #71, that I picked up a few years back. LV makes a very nice modern clone:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=52609&cat=1,41182,48945
It is a bit more refined, and is attractively priced,
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Despite the fence, the #71 from LV is really not a plow plane- its a router. And I have a terminology question: I define dadoes as grooves applied cross grain? If that's the feature you need to create, a plow won't do that (short of maybe a S #46). To create a dado you need a dado plane. Now some folks also confuse rabbets with dadoes. A Rabbet is a one sided groove applied to an edge. These can be made with a plow or a rabbet plane. Were I your master, I would ask you to make this feature with a chisel, then maybe clean it up with a rabbet.So my view is that modern woodworkers use these terms interchangeably, perhaps because all of them can be cut with either a router or a table saw. But traditionally, these joints each had their own name and their own special tool to cut them. Adam
Adam,Neil is a novice (hence his name). I answered the question I believe he meant to ask. I assume he wants to cut dadoes by hand, I think the router plane will do nicely for that purpose. I think his question was practical, not didactic; my answer was pragmatic, not pedantic. The latter I will leave to the "master".Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
G,Not trying to be a wise guy, but have you used this plane to make grooves? Dadoes? Anybody else?What I don't like about routers is that you have to advance the blade after each pass. Inevitably, I get greedy and advance the blade too much and have to worry out material with the sole up above the surface. I've cut miles of groove by hand and from my experience, I'd sooner cut a groove with a chisel than a router plane- The router plane could do a good job cleaning up the bottom of that groove, but that's as far as I would take it.I'm sorry you and I got off on the wrong foot. In this instance we'll have to agree to disagree; From my experience, just one man's point of view, a router is not an efficient tool for the creation of grooves or dadoes.Adam
Adam
Not trying to stir the pot, but the veritas router plane actually does a terrific job on dadoes. I recently built a standing cabinet style jewelry box for my daughter as her graduation present. (She just got her Master's degree in accounting, and I'm a proud papa!!!!) Because of her fantastic effort in college (4.0 for 6 years, another gloat!) I wanted to give her something made with just hand tools, as an analogy to what one can accomplish when one sets one mind to it. Since I didn't have a plow/plough plane, I decided to use my router plane. I practiced on a piece of scrap first, and discovered that with the grain AND across the grain, the router plane did an excellent job. I was even able to freehand a 1/2" dado down the center of a board too far away from the edge to use the fence. I know that's not what the tool is designed for, but it accomplished the mission with astonishing accuracy and speed.
I guess it goes to show a few things:
You don't need a full compliment of every single type of tool to perform every task.
One man's hammer is another man's chisel.
On another note, I enjoy your articles at PW, and would guess that you, of all woodworkers, would know that hand tools can perform many, many tasks besides the one that they were originally designed for.
Walnutz
You're not stirring the pot, you're providing data we need;When grooving, how do you handle the blade depth issue?
When dadoing (if that's a word) did you knife out the walls? saw them? does this tool have nickers i don't know about? Would you recommend this tool for this task?Adam
Adam,
dadoing is sure a funny looking word. But it did bring to mind an old woodworking song, about ploughing crossgrain grooves, and working overtime, by that master cabinet maker Harry Belafonte: "Dado! Da-aa-aado! Daylight come, and me wan' go home."
And while it is I suppose, really a sliding fillester, the Stanley # 78 rabbet plane has both a depth stop, and a nicker, along with a fence. Just another example of the degradation over time of woodworking terminology. As soon as a feller gets to know his wooden planes, here comes a new-fangled metal plane that calls itself one thing, and has features of another.
Regards,
Ray
Adam
For both applications, along the grain and across the grain, I had no issues with tearout in cherry. I took the time to hone the cutter to a fine polished edge, which didn't take long as Lee Valley really prepares their blades well. I was actually able to follow my marking lines across the grain freehand without a fence. The little fence that comes with the router plane is only for working very close to the edge. Once I got the cut going with the initial pass, I found that the cutter followed the previous pass very well. Once I got down about 1/32" or so, it followed the side walls so well I hardly had to pay attention. It was much easier than I thought it would be. Also, the center dado I created was stopped about 1" front the edge, and by using the square faced cutter, I was able to cut right to with a wisp of my line, and break off the shaving. Each successive shaving would break off a little bit further back into the dado, so by the time I was finished, I had about 1/8" to clean up with a chisel.
As far as cutter advancement, after each pass, I just gave the adjuster a good twist. I was never able to set the cutter too deep to cause a problem, and the dadoes and grooves (I always just call them dadoe's regardless of grain direction, although I know that is not gramatically correct). I was working on 1/2" stock, so my dadoe's were only 3/16" deep, but it went better and quicker than expected. I would say that by the time I would have had a tailed router and fence setup, I was already finished doing it by hand. I was quite impressed with my new tool.
Walnutz
Here's a photo of 26 (yep that's right, 26) dados cut with a Stanley 39 3/8 dado plane. It's for an apothecary cabinet-style chest of drawers. The sides of the dados were defined with a tenon saw. The dados are 3/4 inch wide. I'd like to refute one of Lataxe's points that the dado plane had to be the same size as the dado. The 39 3/8 works great on 3/4 inch dados - just do one side and then the other. The depth stop works to stop depth regardless of which side you are working on. All in all the 39 3/8 is a great plane.
Just goes to show, once again, that you can easily cram one hour of work with an electric router into a day and a half's work with hand tools (a dado plane and a saw).
But a router has no soul.
Cheers, Ed
Ed, Walnutz & Glaucon,
Like the OP I have been wondering what hand tool to employ for cutting dados. An LN 140 and a Veritas shoulder plane are fine for rabbets; a Mujinfang plough has proved good for grooves with the grain and near to an edge. Cross grain grooves and those in the middle of a panel are on my list of techniques-to-learn; but what to make them with?
Your various posts and related experiences are pushing me towards one routerplane (a Veritas) and one dado plane. (And perhaps it is a dado plane that the OP is really in need of.....)?
With the router plane, it seems it is necessary to scribe or even saw the edges of the dado; also, there is no easy way to guide it in the middle of a panel - although it guides itself on the ddo edge, once that edge has been established.
But some dado planes have nickers, which would presumably allow them to make a dado wthout marking out, scribing or sawing, except for marks to locate a guiding straight edge...?
Ed, your dadoing of all those grooves for that chest is quite an inspiration, as is your point about a dado plane being able to make dados wider than itself. I feel I must also acquire a dado plane...but which? No handy Veritas in the catalogue!
For me, getting and fettling old planes, however worthy, is not on. Is there a good quality modern dado plane to be had anywhere? Ideally I would like one of 3/8 or 1/2 inch width, having nicker(s) and a depth stop.
Perhaps a narrow shoulder plane would do, after scribing the dado edge lines and using a straight edge to guide the plane? The router plane would make the final passes to get an even and defined depth.....?
Lawd, all this esoteric planing stuff is complicated. I do hear that 3HP router calling to me from its cupboard.
Lataxe, who thought his plane herd was big enough already but is now On The Slope.
Gents,At risk of sounding boastful, with the right plane, many specialty joints can be executed very quickly. I'd estimate a few minutes (maybe 2-depending on the species) to cut each of Ed's dadoes with the planes shown below. Wide rabbets can take longer with a plane. I like to plow an 1/8" shoulder, then waste to it with a chisel and clean up with a rabbet plane. I've found this to be the fastest method for me. But I've never encountered any of these features in furniture that take more than 10 minutes to make- and that's really pushing it. So just to be clear, there are things that take me much longer to do by hand- I find moldings to be pretty time consuming. But dadoes and grooves aren't among them. I wanted to time myself on my latest project and publish the results so folks would have some idea of the difference between machine and hand work. The problem has been that the photography interrupts me and I lose track of both what I'm doing and how it has taken so far.Anyway, here are the tools I'm using. These are nice British tools for you Lataxe!Adam
Adam, and Derek: (Why can't I send this to both of you?????)
The opportunity to purchase a complete Stanley 45 has fallen in my lap from a local seller (not ebay). It is stated as complete, which I wouldn't know if it hit me in the ear, but the seller seems honest.
What tasks in wood is this plane capable of performing? And what differentiates this particular plane from the others like it, especially the Stanley 55?
This is a wonderful thread, and I was pleased to see Derek mentioning The 45 as just this morning my intent was to add this particular plane to our discussion.
Thanks,
Walnutz
The opportunity to purchase a complete Stanley 45 has fallen in my lap from a local seller (not ebay). It is stated as complete, which I wouldn't know if it hit me in the ear, but the seller seems honest.
What tasks in wood is this plane capable of performing? And what differentiates this particular plane from the others like it, especially the Stanley 55?
Hi Walnutz
My #45 is complete, but I must admit that it does not get much use.
I can cut nice beads with it, but I can cut nicer beads more easily with a dedicated woodie or scratch stock.
The #45 does a good job of ploughing grooves. In fact, if you were planning on cutting a dado, I would not hesitate to use the #45 since it has a nicker on either side of the blade (which ploughs such as the #043 and #044 do not have). However, I prefer other means for a dado, and the #044 is more quicker to set up and more comfortable to use for grooving.
Planes such as the #45 and #55 are combination planes as they do many tasks. They do them fairly well but not as well as a dedicated plane. Their advantage lies in the fact that you can replace all those other planes with just one (of course, one tends to go into denial in regard to the size of the box that contains the parts that make up these planes!).
The #55 is even more accessoried than the #45. It is capable of cutting complex mouldings. One of my mates absolutely loves his #55 and is capable of making it sing. Most everyone else I know has theirs collecting dust on a shelf. They are considered quite difficult to master.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek
Thanks for the quick reply. You're the 2nd to tell me in short order that both the 45 and 55 are nice collector pieces that are good at many functions, but master of none!
I'll take the hint, and continue my search for the nice plow/plough plane out there searching for it's place on my workbench and plane shelf. I really wanted a wood one, anyway.
Thanks,
Walnutz
I had a #45 and sold it for less than I paid for it. Hated it. A wooden plow is significantly better. The blade adjustment on the 45 is particularly hokey. Cutting cross grain with a square iron is not very satisfying. Some guys have the patience for these tools and can do good work with them. When I'm in my shop, I'm looking to make money or finish up so I can spend more time with my kids. My life is too short for a combination plane.How's that?Adam
Well, it seems that you concur with the other 2 opinions I have received on the same tool. A wooden plow plane it shall be. Now, to only find a good user.....
Walnutz
I assume there is an unwritten qualifier to your statement "When I'm in my shop, I'm looking to make money or finish up so I can spend more time with my kids." Perhaps "without using a power tool". I doubt you would claim that non-power tools are always faster.
I assume there is an unwritten qualifier to your statement "When I'm in my shop, I'm looking to make money or finish up so I can spend more time with my kids." Perhaps "without using a power tool". I doubt you would claim that non-power tools are always faster.
Ooh la la. Now you've done it! I will leave the response to CPA (Candle Power Adam). :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
I bought a complete 45 last year - it is yet to leave the lounge room because my young son hasn't started his box project yet.
I can tell you that dismantling it will keep an inquisitive 2 year old busy for at least half an hour. His father is a collector and was quite happy helping him put it back together - another 1/2hour.
Dave
Years ago, I stole my first 45 from my father and I couldn't find most of the blades. I eventually confessed and asked where the cutters were. He said "You damn kids scattered them all over the lawn, that's where they are!". Kids will be kids, I guess.
I am currently renovating my grandfathers plow having acquired all but one of the missing irons. I find wooden planes very satisfying, and with any hand tool I am able to breath easily whilst sweeping up. Cutting moldings on the spindle however..........
I am lucky in being able to easily lay my hands on wooden planes for little money.
Ed
When you start your dadoes with the 39, how do you guide your initial cuts to keep them straight? Do you apply a fence to your workpiece, or does the 39 track a line well enough without squigglin' all over the place?
It sounds like a 3/8 #39 and both side rabbet planes (which I already own) are a good way to go for handcut dadoe's.
Jeff
Jeff - good to see you're still posting.
Just use a batten strip (2 X 3/4") that you hold in place with your left hand to guide the 39. No need to go through all the rigamarole of clamping it down, is my experience. Once the dado trench gets started, the plane is pretty much self-guiding. Most of the time I remove chunks of waste with a chisel before the dado plane does its work, anyway.
Most of the time the sequence is:
1) Marking knife, with straightedge
2) Tenon saw with batten strip
3) Chisel
4) Dado Plane
5) Side Rabbet planes
Take care, Ed
I tend to use a (power)router to cut most of my dados. I bought the '71 a few years back and did some restoration on it. One day, while "plowing a few dadoes" (or "ploughing" as Lataxe might say), my router bit broke. I did not have another handy, and I wanted to finish the job, so I cut the remaining dadoes on a radial arm saw. As you might imagine, although the cuts were accurate, the bottom of the dado was fairly rough. So I used the 71 to rout out the dadoes until smooth. It worked very well, and I liked the feel of the plane. A few months later, I was cajoled into making some book shelves for a friend who has a fairly rustic summer cabin that he built himself. I don't really like doing WWing on the road because I ineveitably forget a tool that I need. My friend also has a small son who has "helped" him build the cabin, and I was a little leary of having him "help" me with a router. So I brought my chisels, a backsaw and a few planes including the '71. I had milled the boards already, so we proceeded to layout the bookshelves on the picnic table in the back. I cut the shoulders of the dadoes with the back saw, and then laid several parallel cuts between them. I pared down 2/3 way with the chisels and commenced to rout out the dadoes with the '71. My helper was all attention as he watched amd made ready for his turn. We had a short interlude for a lesson on sharpening chisels, and then finished the job. It was a fine summer afternoon's work, with no loud whining (from either tools or workman). Assembly was appropriately celebrated with lemonade all round.Since then, I have found the '71 to be fairly handy for stopped dadoes and mortising out the strike plates for locks and window hardware. It has fairly fine control and it is easy to ensure that the depth of each dado or mortise is accurate by using the first of the set as a model for subsequent efforts.I haven't used other dado or plow planes to make a comparison, but I find the '71 useful for my needs.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Neil,
Here's a reasonably priced one that might work for you:
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98.120.4033&dept_id=13602
You'll need to do some prep work on the irons before you use it, but it is a pretty decent plane, and the price is probably about as good as you're likely to get....
Good luck and have fun in your class!!
.
Tschüß!
James
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
--A.C. Clarke
The Stanley 45 or 55 is probably the most common plane to do this. Both will make dados and a whole lot more. eBay is the place to buy one if you have the stomach for the bidding.
If you're not up for the eBay bidding wars, and need a tool in a hurry, here's one place to get a nice plow/dado/combination plane (along with many, many other tools) for a reasonable price:
http://www.jonzimmersantiquetools.com/tools/pla_list.htm
(Combination planes are at the bottom of the web page.)
I've bought a number of tools from Jon, including a #45. His service is superb and fast, and the quality of the tools I've bought from him has always exceeded the description. IME/IMO, just a really great guy to do business with. (No affiliation; just a very satisfied customer.)
As an aside, I think he was either the first or the second antique tool dealer on the web, back in the early 90s.
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
--A.C. Clarke
Adam is correct--pick yourself up a few sizes of wood dado planes from eBay or an old tool seller. Would help to ask the school what size of dadoes will be created--else get a few sizes. Alternately, you can spend big bucks on the great and wonderul Stanley #46--just make sure it has all the pieces.
A side rabbet plane is useful if you get wooden dado planes. That way you can use the dado plane undersized closest to the size needed and then us the side rabbet to widen it out.
There are several side rabbet planes to choose from. The #79 is probably the easiest and cheapest to get a vintage version of. For new, the #98/99 pair from Lie-Nielsen work great. But there are wood versions of these, too.
For stopped dadoes, I use a brace and bit sized for the dado and drill out the stopped end and saw the shoulders. Pop out the wood with a chisel and clean up with a router plane.
You can cut dadoes with a plow plane, but they are not the greatest at it. If you do use a plow plane, it helps to obtain a clean shoulder to knife the dado's shoulders prior to plowing.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
Coo, this thread confused me, to begin with. I thought I had understood all the plane types but I have not - until now (I think).
After reading Adam's illuminating post, I went off to study Garret Hack and Graham Blackburn books. I discovered the proper definitions of these various groove-types and the associated planes (I hope). I would be grateful for your veracity check on what I now think I know.......... :-)
The OP's question may contain an error, incidentally. A plough plane is for grooves with the grain, not for dados, as Adam points out. A dado plane is for dados.
* A plough plane is for making grooves with the grain, parallel to an edge. The fence runs on the workpiece edge to keep the plough plane in the groove at a distance set from the edge via the plane's adjustable fence. The skate and blade of the plough descend into the groove but depth is limited by the depth of the skate.
Plough planes can take different width blades and so can cut various widths of groove.
A plough plane can be used also to make rabbets (a one-walled groove with the grain along edge) but a rabbet plane is better as it (a) should have a depth stop, thus keeping the rebate evenly-depthed (to a depth defined by the stop); and (b) should have a nicker, allowing rabbets to made cleanly across as well as with the grain.
* A dado plane is a plane with nickers on both sides and a body the same width as the blade. The nickers define and cleanly cut the dado edges across the grain so the blade following behind cuts out the waste with no spelching. The plane gradually descends into the groove but there is no depth stop.
Each dado plane can only cut a dado of one width - the width of its body/blade. Therefore a "side rabbet pane" (confusingly) can be used to plane the walls of a dado, and grooves ploughed with the grain as well, to widen them.
A router plane is used to clean and even the depth of already existing grooves and/or dados, where a plough or dado plane (which have no depth stops) have been initially employed
Lastly, both plough and dado planes can have blades other than straight, to make shaped grooves or dados - ie moldings. Hence, molding planes.
Fancy plough planes are made that take multiple blades of various profiles. They are expensive; and old ones are said to always be in good condition because they are a pain to set up and therefore are put back in the box after the first try.
***
Is all this correct? Does the OP need a dado plane (amd maybe a side rabbet plane) rather than a plough plane? Perhaps he can use the Veritas routerplane, as at least one poster has made successful grooves and dados with one from scratch. There are good reviews of the router plane by Derek Cohen and Chris Schwaz:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/LVRouterPlane/index.asp
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSchwarz/routPlanes/rPlane1.asp
As to a plough plane - I recommend the very cheap Mujinfang that James (pzgren)mentioned. It works well once the blade adjustment via a hammer is grasped.
Lataxe, just plane confused
Aye, Sir Lataxe...We meet again...
Yeah, I would go with those definitions and usages--but that doesn't mean I wouldn't employ a tool not specifically suited for a given task. Especially if I didn't have the proper, task-designed tool
There are many ways to do a task, some simply more efficient than others. So for instance on through dadoes, I find a dado plane simply the fastest method. But I have sawn and chiseled them before. Slower and more prone to error for me. Sawing, chiseling and then finishing off with a router plane a significant step up in speed and a "better" end product.
Some where around the speed of sawing and chiseling alone is using a plow plane meant for grooving. The end product as regards the shoulders is a pita and so if one desires crisp shoulders the extra care needed to ensure that is for me also pita. But it certainly can be done.
But nothing beats a dado plane when using hand tools for making dadoes. And I prefer wooden dado planes designed for specific widths. But the Stanley #46 is up there. I just like the wood planes.
Take care, Mike
First, thanks to all for the feedback and suggestions...I've been a reader of Knots for nearly a year but this was my first post...I was delighted at the range of responses and the inevitable veering off to other related subjects from which I learned more..if a dado is against the grain, then is it a groove rather than a dado one would make for a drawer side to fit the drawer bottom?
I watched Rob Cosman make perfectly fitting drawers in a video...all was constructed with hand tools...when he made the groove/dado for the drawer bottom he used a plane I'd never seen which I now assume is a plow/plough plane..I was struck by his statement when he finished "there are alot of ways to do this, but none more satisfying"...as a neophyte in woodworking I am feeling my way along,learning initially with power tools but now finding myself slowly being seduced by hand tools...there is something about the sound and feel of a plane shaving across the wood that is more attractive (for me) than anything I've done with a tablesaw or a router
Neil
"This is not 'Nam, Smokey, there are RULES, man!"
Neil wrote: I watched Rob Cosman make perfectly fitting drawers in a video...all was constructed with hand tools...when he made the groove/dado for the drawer bottom he used a plane I'd never seen which I now assume is a plow/plough plane..I was struck by his statement when he finished "there are alot of ways to do this, but none more satisfying".
I was quite taken by that plane of Rob's after watching his DVD. I liked the idea that one could have a simple plane dedicated to this single task, that is, cutting a groove of 1/4" that is set 1/4" from the edge and to a set depth. It appears that he used a plane that was either for cutting matched tongue-and-grooves, or one based on this.
Here is mine:
View Image
There are certainly a lot of options when it comes to plough plane variants.
I like experimenting with planes and own several ploughs, including an #043, #044, #45, and #46 (the latter designed for dados). For simple grooves with the grain I grab the #044. All of these planes may be used to dado as well, but then work best if you first knife the outer lines.
View Image
The LV router plane can do a good job of ploughing a groove as well, because the depth adjustment is easy to use (with reference to Adam's comment - I agree that this is a difficult task if one uses the Stanley). This plane comes into its own for stopped grooves.
View Image
With dados, my preference remains to knife the lines and chisel them out. Then clean up with a router plane. This is a surprisingly quick process.
View Image
Lastly, for rebates (with the grain) the Record #778 is preferred over the Stanley #78. It works fast with a largish mouth. I added a LN blade, which is a little thicker than the original.
View Image
... and for fillesters (across the grain) I have a ECE with a skew blade.
View Image
And here ends the illustration!
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek:
Since I didn't know how to send my post to Adam and you to you as well, I'd appreciate it if you read it, as it is addressed to you as well, and responded. Thanks for all the fine pictures, too.
Walnutz
Derek,
We meet again. I too was very interested in Rob Cosmans little grooving plane, so much so that I called him up. I have done this before with Rob, so I asked him about the plane and he said he made it because he needed it! He did promise to also make one for me when he wasn't so busy. I will keep you posted.
Michae Rogen
Lataxe,
A few minor additions to/comments on your learned disquisition:
Plow/plough planes often but not always have a depth stop.
Dado planes also often but not always have a depth stop.
A nicker is a usual but-not-always-present feature of a rebate plane (to wit, Chinese-style wooden rebate planes).
Some plough, rebate, and dado planes have skewed irons.
A router plane is probably more often used to perform the functions you mentioned, but it can be used to create grooves/dadoes; it is, as Adam pointed out, just not the most efficient way to go about it.
And then we have badger and panel raising planes, both of which are rather specialised variations of the basic "groove-cutting" plane idea.
If a "plough" or "dado" plane has a profiled iron, then it really is no longer a "plough" or "dado" plane (with the exception, I suppose, of the combination planes, which name is really more accurate than "plough" or "dado" because of the multiple functions that the plane can perform....), but a "moulding" plane (as you pointed out). And, as you are most likely aware, moulding planes not only have a profiled iron, but also a profiled sole.
You are correct that many vintage combination planes (Stanley #45, #55, etc., and other companies' versions of them) tend to be in reasonably good shape because they didn't get much use, due to the complications involved in properly setting them up. Nonetheless, with a little patience and a bit of experimentation, one can learn to properly set them up in relatively short order, and produce all manner of useful and attractive groove-type cuts on wood. Like just about anything else having to do with hand planes, there is something of a learning curve. (And oh yes, they do tend to be rather expensive....)
Does the OP need a plough/dado/combination plane? Probably not; it/they would simply make doing what he wants to do easier, faster, and -- at least initially -- more accurate. But, if he has an appropriately-sized chisel and a decent (small-ish) hand saw, he can cut (stopped) dadoes, grooves, rebates, and sliding dovetails with just those two tools (and, of course, whatever tools he needs for layout purposes); it just takes a little more time and effort.
So...I hope that the comments above will contribute to relieving you of the sobriquet "just plane confused." Heh, heh, heh....
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
--A.C. Clarke
James,
Lawd! All those special hand tools and the incredible effort!! Sawing and chiselling dados!!! Madness!!!!! I may just have to get out the Dewalt 625 and the boxes of router cutters again.... :-)
Not yet, though. Them 400+ hand cut dovetails have given me an appetite for long, repetative, sweaty woodworking. It's like a bicycle race - nice when it's over and you can have a bun and tea whilst rehearsing the adventure. "Well, when Ah come to pin number 297, there were this little knot......"
Lataxe, sucking up plane data.
Lataxe, old top,
With all your rebate, plough, combo, side rabbet planes at al, add to the list the sliding fillester (filletster), which is essentially a wide rabbet plane, with an adjustable fence which regulates the width of the rebate (rabbet, or fillet, when it's a component of a complex moulding).
And a theoretical question: If one had a dado plane, configured for cutting a spiral dado, would it have to have its nickers in a twist?
Ray
Ray,
<<And a theoretical question: If one had a dado plane, configured for cutting a spiral dado, would it have to have its nickers in a twist?>>
Of course it would, but only as long as it's not one of Mel's thongs.....
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Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
--A.C. Clarke
Ray wrote:...add to the list the sliding fillester (filletster), which is essentially a wide rabbet plane, with an adjustable fence which regulates the width of the rebate (rabbet, or fillet, when it's a component of a complex moulding).
To wit I add not much of value:
http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/temp/m_fillister1.jpg
http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/temp/m_fillister2.jpg
Not that I have the moving fence in an area which makes it look less as part of the bottom of the plane...
This plane is what I cut nearly every rabbet with. Skewed blade and nicker makes it also ideal for cross-grain work. I have also raised simple panels with it.
Take care, Mikeback to worky...
Mikey,
Yup that's it; and a right nice one, too.
Ray
Ray, old hog rider,
You ask: "If one had a dado plane, configured for cutting a spiral dado, would it have to have its nickers in a twist"?
Well, mobeus it would and mobeus it wouldn't. :-) How does your spiral flow?
Of course, what one needs to consider is the plane bottom. A nice flat bottom often means a working plane. There is a certain class of "lady" in Galgate who is described as having "a fur coat but nae knickers". They do not have plain bottoms and are always on the lookout for a sugar dado, as they do not like to work.
Lataxe the grubby
Lataxe, you old so and so,
A hog is a Harley-Davidson, or as we Indian riders call them, Hardly- Ableson. However, I will overlook the aspersion you have cast. As you probably have not heard, "If I had a Harley, I'd leave it for a thief. And with the insurance money, I'd buy an Indian Chief." But that is by the by.
Fur coat...nae knickers. Pray tell, is the fur on the outside of, or under, the frock, you naughty boy? No nickers and a split bottom, too, most likely. But a stiff iron, well bedded, might yet save the day.
The first time I read the word "knicker", was, I believe, in Orwell's "1984". Didn't Winston's- was that his name- girlfriend wear (and remove) "cami-knickers" ? I think I was in the 11th grade at the time- pretty risque- ah to go back to 1984...but that would be doubleplusungood, like the direction this post has taken...
Ray, waiting for a reprimand from Big Brother
Ray, old Indian 'strider,
Them geet big motosickles all look the same to me. And what a noise & stink they do make. Also, the riders wear threatening leather hats and take off one's womenfolk for illicit use (I have seen it in your moving picture shows).
As a cyclist I must tell you that those massive engines will be much too hard to pedal up hill, once they have broken down; and one would never win the sprints for the village name-signs. Also, whilst I imagine your throttle-twisting muscle is enormous and throbbing with power, it would not surprise me if your legs have dropped off through lack of use..... :-)
Finally, I will mention but not relate all the verses of a fine ditty taught to me by naughty Uncle Cornelius, when I were an innocent bairn. It starts: Knicky-knacky-noo, I went to clean Lord Farquar's flue. His wife was there and she was...... (I must run off now, as I see the Good Taste police coming).
Lataxe
Okay, I give up. Can anyone point me to any traditional use of the term "sliding fillester?" It's a new one to me. Well, I have seen it once or twice before but only from one rather unreliable source.
Okay, I give up. Can anyone point me to any traditional use of the term "sliding fillester?" It's a new one to me. Well, I have seen it once or twice before but only from one rather unreliable source.
Larry, I think a sliding fillester is a self-powered fillester that is used on an incline. These "slide" better without the blade, of course.
I heard that they are to be introduced at the next Tool Olympics for Neanderthals to balance the Normites "fastest beltsander" race.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Ahhh, I see. I was afraid it might be a tool for air woodworkers to use when building guitars for air guitar players.
Okay, I give up. Can anyone point me to any traditional use of the term "sliding fillester?" It's a new one to me. Well, I have seen it once or twice before but only from one rather unreliable source.
Could be worse, Larry.
I know you probably don't have the time, but one thing that would be really nice one day is a contemporary work categorizing planes and pictorially demonstrating some uses. Written by folks that care.
Heck, I hope that at some point in time you and or Adam would get articles published on the use of molding planes and joinery planes. We got articles a plenty on smoothers and "bench" planes. Boring subjects when oft repeated.
Take care, Mike
>Heck, I hope that at some point in time you and or Adam would get articles published on the use of molding planes and joinery planes. We got articles a plenty on smoothers and "bench" planes. Boring subjects when oft repeated.<
I'll second that notion. A book titled "Everything You can Do With the 25 Most Common Molding Planes" would be one that I would be reaching for on the shelf and knocking all the other other books aside to get to. Someone like you could probably write it. FWW could probably publish parts of it it. Just a voice from the peanut gallery.
We're just days away from starting filming a couple videos. I think people will find these enabling. The volume of information we're trying to condense into a few hours has me thinking I should have gone to auctioneer school.
Hi Larry,
I have several of your wonderful planes and am interested in any videos about planes that you might make.
Can you tell yet when these videos might be available and where we could order them?
Thanks,
Bruce
Bruce,I'm hoping the videos will be released in early June. They should be widely available because they're being produced by a company that is well established in woodworking videos.
Hi Larry,
Thank you for your prompt response. I look forward to any video on planes or tools with which you are involved. I'm hoping your release will be on DVD; I fear I gave away my age when I unthinkingly used the term "video" in my original inquiry. I meant "DVD." I suppose I'm lucky I didn't blurt "8-track." My videocassette player died a decade ago; my 8-track died back when airplanes had four wings.
Best,
Bruce
Larry
Good to know about the upcoming dvd's on planes. I also agree with Mike that if you were to write a book about woodie's, one would certainly find it's way to my library.
On another note, via your website, I emailed you over the weekend regarding the purchase of a plane. Specifically, a moving filletster. Mine is completely warn out ( I think it was when I bought it), and I'm tired of fiddling with it. I've been having off and on trouble with my email lately, so I thought I'd mention it to you on the Knot's as well, because those are for some reason going through. Hope you don't mind.
I'll await your reply.
Jeff
Jeff,Sorry for the slow response to your e-mail. I'll try to get to it tonight. I was trying to keep a promise to myself that I'd finish four new duplex fixtures this weekend. We're also facing a Monday deadline for sending expanded scripts for the dvd's. I wish I had also managed to finish a couple other fixtures but one of them isn't even started yet. I did have time to have part of a conversation with Don about the precise meaning of "striking moldings" to 18th Century craftsmen. It's part of an ongoing discussion of the exact meanings of the terms "sticking", "sinking" and "striking" when it comes to traditional trade practices of making moldings. Understanding the meanings is important to understanding those rare passages in old texts. That's why it's a real bad idea to randomly change the name of moving fillisters to "sliding fillester" is a bad idea. W.L.Goodman did something similar when he decided to switch the meanings of "hollows" and "rounds" in a book 30 years ago and it's still a source of confusion.
Wonderful, Larry. Simply wonderful. I cannot wait.
I think this is an even better idea than a book as it shows it being done. A book or booklet accompaning a video, though, is a handy thing in the shop so please consider that as an adjunct to the video.
Take care, Mike
My bad, Larry. I apparently comfuscated "sash" and "moving", and made them both into into "sliding", although I swear I've heard the term as well.
Chastened,
Ray
Lataxe,
<<Lawd! All those special hand tools and the incredible effort!! Sawing and chiselling dados!!! Madness!!!!!>>
Ya just ain't lived 'til ya've cut a dozen foot-long sliding dovetails by hand wit' a saw an' a chisel!!
_____
Besides, we all know that -- secretly -- you've already decided that your next woodworking challenge, after you get done with yer gazillion hand-cut dovetails, is hand-cut dadoes with saw and chisel -- just to test the flexability of them new saws and chisels; plus, you've been looking for the perfect excuse to add one o' them Veritas Router Planes to your growing arsenal of hand tools....
Then...you're gonna combine the two and make saw & chisel sliding dovetails by the gross.....
When oh when will it ever end?!?!?!?!?
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
--A.C. Clarke
Lataxe:I find it helpful to back up in time a bit more. Despite the lack of documentary evidence, the tools and their use are easier to understand.You wrote: "[The Plow] should have a nicker, allowing rabbets to made cleanly across as well as with the grain.'Traditionally, wooden plows did not have nickers and using any plane with a square blade cross grain is not optimum at best."The [dado] plane gradually descends into the groove but there is no depth stop."All the wooden dadoes I've even seen have adjustable depth stops. "Lastly, both plough and dado planes can have blades other than straight, to make shaped grooves or dados - ie moldings. Hence, molding planes."I've never seen a dado that takes multiple blades. Moreover, I'm unimpressed with "sole-less" moulders. Stanley made soles for the #45 for beads. Without a sole, performance in anything but the straightest grain is limited."A rabbet plane is better as it (a) should have a depth stop, thus keeping the rebate evenly-depthed (to a depth defined by the stop); and (b) should have a nicker, allowing rabbets to made cleanly across as well as with the grain."Rabbets never have depth stops. Some rare rabbets have knickers, but these are always "wry-mouthed" or skew rabbets. Skew rabbets can be nice to use as they can work cross grain, especially if a knicker is present. But they are "self fencing" meaning the skewed iron imparts a side force that pushed the plane to the right. For free handing (finger fencing) a rabbet, I prefer the square rabbet.I could post pictures of all of these tools if you think this would help.AdamP.S. I missed James' post above when I hastily posted this. Sorry James!
Edited 2/23/2007 8:33 pm ET by AdamCherubini
Adam,
These to and fro conversations are very helpful, I find, as one's misunderstandings are rapidly made clear then corrected.
Pictures of all the plane types would indeed be helpful - we might end up with a summary of the plane types in a few Knots posts that seem to take them plane book-writers 278 pages to describe. (Also, they want our dollars and pounds). :-)
Lataxe, a student.
you had one response that indicated a record 044 as a suitable plane for dados. Then the whole world started going wierd.
the record or marples #44 is indeed a relatively sweet plane, akin to the #50 of the Satanly mfg, but I'd prompt you to look at a #43 from the record or marples line. I searched on ebay, but there seems to be none currently listed.
These little puppies are just the sweetest, and the last one I bought was in the 20 buck range.
The next step up is the Stanley 50, and there are models with blade depth adjusters, and models without, I s'pect to pay anywhere from 80-140 bucks depending on condition and blade count.
I guess way back when, fellas looked at the 50 and then at the 45 and decided to opt for the 45 for it's versatility (if they couldn't afford the further step up to a 55) Lots more complexity in set up with a 45 but it will do the same as a 50, or the 43, just not so quickly....45's seem to be way more common than a record or marples 43, so maybe that's the way to go if you gotta get there quickly.
Besides, a 45 does have it's knickers, which a 43 doesn't. And there are a heck of a lot more 45's on the 'bay than there are 43's
I note that some folks has suggested 39's, a reasonable way to go if you can afford it, cause every size is gonna cost you a minimum of a hunnderd bucks. And i don't think they made em in the 1/8" , 3/16, or 1/4" size. This is one suggestion where you just gotta wait for the tool god to shine on you.
I don't envy you trying to figure the responses to yer query, noting one response that said that rabbet planes are never used with a depth stop. Indeed most rabbet planes are sold with one. (Satanly 78 for one)
Welcome to the slippery slope..
Eric
in Calgary
Well, this thread has been an education to me (and I imagine, to the OP). It has caused me to seek a dado plane. Having better understood what they are and something of the options, I went off to search the Internet, high and low. Dado planes seem to be available only in these varieties (I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong):
* Various old wooden ones - often cheap even from tool dealers; but all look suspiciously "tired" and one wonders how easy it would be to, for instance, align the worn nickers with the worn blade.
* Stanley No 39s in various widths - rather expensive for items that often look knackerd, although I imagine they are do-upable by those so inclined and able - assuming you can find and purchase one without getting a pig in a poke. Where would one find a replacement nicker or blade, for instance?
* There is also a Stanley 239, as illustrated in the Gareth Hack book; but I can't find one of these for sale and it is probably expensive because rare.
* A Stanley No 46 combination, which has skew blades as well as the nickers. As with all combination planes, these items have the reputation of being hard to set up and use, despite their apparent versatility. I can't find one for sale but the guide price is "a lot".
* A small number of newly-made wooden dado planes (eg Knight); but many woodie manufacturers seem to make every variety of weird plane except dado planes.
* I can discover no modern manufacturer of metal dado planes - not even Lie Nielsen, Veritas or Bridge City.
***
All this leads me to wonder - why are dado planes the forgotten plane, especially within the metal manufactories of ie Lie Nielsen and Veritas? Is there something inherently difficult about their design? Are they somehow made redundant by some other plane?
If I want a new one, will it have to be wooden?
Lataxe
>* Stanley No 39s in various widths - rather expensive for items that often look knackerd, although I imagine they are do-upable by those so inclined and able - assuming you can find and purchase one without getting a pig in a poke. Where would one find a replacement nicker or blade, for instance?<
The blades should last a lifetime or two or three unless you make a science project out of grinding and sharpening them. I've been using my Stanley 39 for a couple years and so far had to just rehone the edge occasionally - no need to regrind yet. I rarely, if ever, use the knickers, though they are honed razor sharp. I use a straightedge and a marking knife and do the job of the knickers first, then let the plane do its work, sometimes using a batten board as a guide, sometimes cutting the walls of the dado with a tenon saw.
I buy something like a Stanley 39 from Patrick Leach because I feel like he has first class honesty, integrity and fairness. You couldn't pay me to fool with ebay on a specialty tool like that.
As for looking knackerd - looks are deceptive. One of the quickest guys to ever play in the NBA - that's basketball, Lataxe, a game played indoors in the winter with an orange leather ball - was a guy named Eric "Sleepy" Floyd.
All this leads me to wonder - why are dado planes the forgotten plane, especially within the metal manufactories of ie Lie Nielsen and Veritas? Is there something inherently difficult about their design? Are they somehow made redundant by some other plane?
Don't rule out either LV or LN.
If either have sense, they'll make a #46. But there are a lot of vintage wood dado planes available, so the cost-benefit may not be there. Glad I don't have to make that decision.
As for beautiful plows, Paul Hamler just released a kit version of the beautiful Miller Patent plow. Not a lot of work to make it ready for prime time. Here's mine as it arrived.
http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/miller_0001.jpg
I do have a couple 043 planes, one a Record and another a Russian version. Both are great planes for smaller grooves. The Record 050 I have is quite capable for grooves in harder woods as well as beading. The Miller I'll use for its shear beauty on yet wider grooves.
C&W I suspect do or would make dado planes--please correct me Larry if you do not. I have considered asking via email for a set of the 3-4 sizes I use the most. I had some wood planes recently stolen and so need replacements anyway. And the C&W smoother I have cannot be beat at all for build and finish quality. I trust the guys in Arkansas!
Take care, Mike
Mike,
Thanks for that additional info - helpful as ever. I am now sitting with my fingers crossed very tight and a screwed-up expression on my chops, wishing extremely hard for LV and/or LN to announce a range of fine dado planes in the next week or two. :-)
That plough plane kit thang looked very interesting. Could you, would you post some more details - a web address or other contact details perhaps; cost and so forth?
Ed, you tempt me to make a first old plane purchase in the form of a No 39 - yet another thing I swore I would never do (but look at me now). Oh the slippery slope!
Lataxe
Hi Sir L,
Here's one of the announcements:http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2876260&page=10&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=
Another was on WoodCentral, as well, there's a gentleman by the name of Jim Reed who is making additional irons for it. I'll make my own, but he's a great guy who makes really nice blades.
Take care, Mike
Lataxe, old chum,
I do believe that you are becoming over-wrought at the thought of tuning a vintage plane for no reason; it's not that hard, and anyone who can put together a nice bench and some of the other toys you've produced will have absolutely no problem at all. Besides, if your first vintage plane is some flavour of a #39, it will take you next to no time to have it singing: there just isn't that much there to tune up.
I'll send you my secret tune-up recipe (off line) if you want it.....
Got another one slidin' down that slope...... heh heh heh ;-)
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
--A.C. Clarke
James,
It i'n't the fettling of old thangs so much as the getting of one that can be fettled at all, without 389 hours spent looking for or making missing/damaged spare parts; and assuming the item is not irreversably damaged.
There seem to be many outlets for olde planes in the US, with some reputable ones; but in Britain there are less sources (at least, that I can discover). The old metal dado planes that I can find in GB, via the net, are few. They are expensive (around $160 and more). They seem to be sold as antiques as much as working tools (ie no one seems to offer a guarantee that they are fettlable).
Don't mention ebay, which is not for me for the same reason, squared.
I am thinking: make do with the router and its accurate, rapid downcut spiral bits, until LN or LV enter the market place with a dado plane or two. Then I can buy with confidence. I forsee small LV shoulder plane style items (with blade-locating grub screws) adapted to have a skewed blade/mouth and nickers like those on the LN 140.
Lataxe, no bargain-hunter and feeling wrought at any such prospect.
Signore di La Taxe!!
<<It i'n't the fettling of old thangs so much as the getting of one that can be fettled at all, without 389 hours spent looking for or making missing/damaged spare parts; and assuming the item is not irreversably damaged.>>
Alles Klar!
Here are a couple of potential sources for you:
http://www.jonzimmersantiquetools.com/tools/tool_ind.html
Nothing there currently, but frequently has metal dado planes. Great guy to do business with; I've bought several tools from him and have been entirely satisfied -- fast, friendly service; tools accurately described and usually better than the description; knowledgeable about tools and more than happy to answer any questions; etc.
_____
These guys may be able to help you out with a wooden dado plane:
http://www.thebestthings.com/woodplan.htm
5/8th inch wooden dado plane, G+, about $70; 5/8th inch wooden dado plane, G, about $50; 7/8th inch wooden dado plane, G+, about $50; etc
I've also bought a number of tools from these guys; again, entirely satisfied -- fast, friendly service; tools accurately described and usually better than the description; knowledgeable about tools and more than happy to answer any questions; etc.
_____
Stanley metal dado planes tend to be pretty expensive here in the US, as well (see the one -- a #39, 3/8th inch, $245 -- recently sold at the first site, about mid-way down the page).
____
Soooo.....my friend, no need to despair (unless HM's Customs wogs hold your new toys for ransom prior to delivery.....), they're out there and available for a mostly reasonable and not too terribly drastic lightening of your wallet!! ;-)
('Course, you could do it the olde fashioned way with a saw, chisel, and perhaps an olde woman's tooth....it's remarkably fast, when it comes right down to it.....)
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
--A.C. Clarke
Hi Lataxe,
Here's five planes wood dado planes from UK's own Tony Murland for $150. Just aim your browser right here: http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/tools.htm
They may all be flawless (!). Alternatively, there may be enough fettling opportunities here to keep you tearing your hair out until St. Swithin's Day.
Best,
BruceR
Quote: "I can discover no modern manufacturer of metal dado planes - not even Lie Nielsen, Veritas or Bridge City."Just for completeness, Anant do a 1/2" version of the Stanley #39 - except they call it a rebate plane. It's not great, but it does work. Available from Rutlands in the UK if you're keen, no affiliation etc.Cheers, Alf
Thank you Bruce, James and Alf, for the links and also for that Anant suggestion Alf.
Looking at the Anant (a mere £28) I can see no obvious evidence of nickers in the Rutland photos. No skewed blade either and one wonders about the blade angle/configuration. Perhaps this is why they call it a rabbet plane. Still, I can put some nickers on it maybe. (That'll make a change).
I will investigate them all, especially Tony Murland's site as it British so the postage and customs duty will not be pecking at my pockets..
Lataxe
The nickers are like the Stanley #39 planes--look at the top of the plane, just to the right of the top of the depthstop. You'll see two silver-colored blades. One is extending down to the right of the depth stop, the other down the other side.
I do believe it is skewed as well.
Heck, I don't overly like the #39 planes--sold off my 4 last year. But I think this one would work as well as a Stanley. Unfortunately they only make the 1/2" though.
Take care, Mike
Yep, it does have the spur cutters and skewed blade - it also has sole not particularly square to the side. Let's see if I can crack the code for posting pics on here...Incidentally you might want to check the list of UK tool dealers on my site if you're going down the old tool route (address in my profile) Cheers, Alf
Alf,
You are a darling and here is a blown smacker through the aether for your trouble and the photos. That Anant looks a simple beast and presumably will be easy to fettle, even if there is to be a bit of grinding. For the price, its worth the try and better than spending £100 on a Stanley of unknown quality.
The half inch will do me for a start, as it will be doing 18.8 mm housing joints in 2 passes.
I'l also be going over to have a drool on your site at the toolsellers.
Of course, really I hate you all for getting me on This Slope. Before long it'll be a Clifton multiplane......
Lataxe, plane foolish
Dear Chap,
"Of course, really I hate you all for getting me on This Slope. Before long it'll be a Clifton multiplane......"
Don't go there-the making of grooves, rebates, rabbits, dados, houseings both stopped and through, half laps, running shoulders and the rest is too boring. Nowt to beat the spindle, router and table saw to relieve this boredom and get onto better things. Were you within spitting distance I would donate my entire collection of hand ploughing paraphernalia to you temporarily to prove my point-even the Record #45 , but with the one exception of my Stanley #71. Just a passing lunchtime thought.Philip Marcou
Edited 2/27/2007 7:58 pm by philip
I say, steady on... Incidentally you do know Anant make a multiplane too? ;)Cheers, Alf
Incidentally you do know Anant make a multiplane too? ;)
Oh, now Alf, that was deliciously evil! <g>
True, though...Mike
Mike, Alf and Philip,
Even I, a handtool fool, know that multiplanes are for looking at, unless you are a masochist or have a sad phobia about letric motors; or an unnatural attraction to old junk (sorry, I mean antique tools).
As to an Anant - I already feel like a mug for even considering that "rabbet" dado plane. However, that costs little and may be easy for even me to fettle. I will send to you, Philip, for a proper blade, though.
In fact, I may send you the whole thang and you can fettle then return it, complete with new gunmetal sides dovetailed to a new sole. Perhaps you could replace the screws, nickers, depth adjuster and other inadequate parts too? I imaging NZ$25 will cover it. :-) (Make sure you put one of them nice Marcou labels on it, mind).
Alf, you are a naughty woman for suggesting a non-Clifton multiplane. However, I will purchase an Anant one if you can make it work in a race againt a Dewalt 625 and a box of cutters.
We can use an easy piece for the demonstration, with a minimum of those fussy profiles and kurlykews beloved by nostalgic folk. In that case, many of the multiplane cutters will remain in their nice packaging, where they belong. You will have an easy time of it.
Lataxe
"Even I, a handtool fool, know that multiplanes are for looking at, unless you are a masochist or have a sad phobia about letric motors; or an unnatural attraction to old junk (sorry, I mean antique tools)."
Actually, I've been able to use a Record Multiplane on several occasions to good effect. I once needed to run about 50' of 2-piece baseboard to match some existing in a house I was restoring. I was able to grind a stock 1" straight blade to match the needed profile, and ran it all by hand in a couple of hours. No big deal at all, but I did need to make up a skate to use with the new profile blade. I made it adjustable, so I could use it pretty much with any custom profile in the future. Also, if the blades are sharp, and the wood is clear and straight-grained, the stock cutters do pretty well too. (Not as well as dedicated moulding planes, but then again, there's no way I'm going to have 55 dedicated moulders on hand, so it's a decent trade-off.) There is more than a little bit of learning curve, though.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Lataxe,
<<Even I, a handtool fool, know that multiplanes are for looking at, unless you are a masochist or have a sad phobia about letric motors; or an unnatural attraction to old junk (sorry, I mean antique tools).>>
Come, come, now laddae! All of this wittering on about the non-utility of multi-planes is mere camouflage for the fact that you have already slipped over the edge and are hurtling at break-neck speed headlong down that slippery slope. What with a couple of Sir Philip's lovely creations, esoteric models from LN, exotic ebony try planes, and so forth....do ya really think yer foolin' anyone but yerself????
You're a grown boy, so just own up to it. It's ok: you're amongst friends here, and we've all got a big-time Jones for hand planes and such. We can be your support group....from hell.....egging you on to more and more-better hand tool acquisitions....heh heh heh....
On an ever so slightly more serious note, combination planes actually are very usable. They simply have a slightly higher learning curve, and require just a tad bit more patience than to prepare than, say, your everyday #4½. Nothing that a highly talented soul such as yourself couldn't easily and forthrightly handle.
Keep slidin'.... :-)~
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
--A.C. Clarke
James & Mike,
I know seduction when I experience it (oh yes) so your temptations can be shoved away for the moment. Naturally, they will prey on my mind.......
When you find me a Stanley No 46 with all the bits, in the original box with the instructions, I may be tempted for real. But only if the price is less than $99.99. :-)
Also, you may have to fly over here to set it up for me.
*****
I have just watched some of the FWW vids concerning Colonial Williamsburg. I had to laugh at the two guys making the "old" tools - with all sorts of super modern machinery that drilled, sawed and generally automated a lot of the process. And these machines were no little Dewalts but Great Massive Machine Tools.
Hee hee hee, I thought - so much for the unalloyed craft of yesteryear. Someone should tell their cabinetmakers about electricity. :-)
Lataxe, in the church but muttering heretically.
Lataxe,
<<I know seduction when I experience it (oh yes) so your temptations can be shoved away for the moment. Naturally, they will prey on my mind.......>>
Now, now, no need to get all pooty, 'specially since you enjoy temptation and seduction....
<<When you find me a Stanley No 46 with all the bits, in the original box with the instructions, I may be tempted for real. .....>>
There, there, laddae: if yer gonna get into the multi-/combi- plane, you can't just settle for a mere #46 -- ya gotta go for the gusto and get at least a #45 (and all the optional cutters), or best of all, the super-fantastic #55. THEN -- and only then -- will you be able to cut all manner of groovy indentations in yer wood....
<<Also, you may have to fly over here to set it up for me.>>
Well, there's an invitation no one could ignore!!! Spend a little time in Merry Olde Englandshire, meet the (in)famous Master Lataxe in person, get the 5 p tour of his shed, see all his woodworking toys (the Marcous, too, please! please!), swap woodworking lies...er...stories, scarf down some of that fine English cuisine (cooked up just right by the LadyWife, I presume?), drink some freshly-brewed local English beer.... Oh, yeah...and help set up the plane, too! What's not to like?
<<Lataxe, in the church but muttering heretically.>>
(In a Stentorian voice) Now, son, listen to Father Jimmy: in the church of St. Roy, there is no heresy. You're free to do woodworking how-so-ever you desire. You can even add p*w*r tools into the mix, if you like...we don't mind at all. We think St. Norm's a good guy too -- you know: same ice cream, just a different flavour. You see, we're not really a church....but we don't advertise that too loud; them p*w*r tool-only guys might get ideas.....
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
Edited 2/28/2007 7:15 pm by pzgren
"Alf, you are a naughty woman for suggesting a non-Clifton multiplane."'Tis true - I feel the shame. I should have pointed out an old Record, Stanley, or my personal favourite, the Lewin, would serve you better and at lower cost... And I'll take the DeWalt race - as long as it also involves listening to a play or narrative poem at the same time, the plot of which subsequently both parties have to be able to explain in order to avoid automatic disqualification. ;)Cheers, Alf
Alf,
You stipulate that: "I'll take the DeWalt race - as long as it also involves listening to a play or narrative poem at the same time, the plot of which subsequently both parties have to be able to explain in order to avoid automatic disqualification". ;)
You must be a Radio 4 fan and therefore a mad zealot of ye olde English type, with zero tolerance for schedule changes to the broadcasts; or changes of any sort really. I bet you shout and moan at The Archers......but I digress. :->
If the router v multipane race is to include multi-tasking of the brain, I insist that it be Radio 3 playing some of the wilder stuff by Schoenberg or one o' them pulsating modern-American composers. To win you must not only make the bit of furniture first but also be able to hum all the parts of the various musical interludes, including the conductor's grunts and the more entertaining coughing-fits of this or that member of the audience.
Naturally all must be in the correct key, with no insertions of router whining noises or curses at the antics of the mutiplane.
One feels that this sport is unlikely to attract spectators or even judges; perhaps not even competitors. Let the comprison of router and multithang be moot, then. (Phew).
***
As to James trying to be a plane succubus (I believe that is the correct term for his behaviour) - well, he will not get into my bed easily, let me tell you! The ladywife would deal with him in a very unfavourable manner, despite his training in a panzer.
No, the multiplane must remain a Mysterious Puzzle to me. It is for obsessive mad folk who listen to Radio 4 or live in climates too hot for them (fried brain is a terrible affliction).
Lataxe, a plain skeptic
Edited 3/1/2007 5:59 pm ET by Lataxe
Lataxe,
<<As to James trying to be a plane succubus (I believe that is the correct term for his behaviour) - well, he will not get into my bed easily, let me tell you! The ladywife would deal with him in a very unfavourable manner, despite his training in a panzer.>>
No need for me to play the plane succubus.... I am confident that the LadyWife is more than pleased to indulge her stalwart woodworker in his tool collec...er...acquisition whims, as she knows that this makes him Happy, and -- being a kind and gentle sort -- that is her wish.
<<No, the multiplane must remain a Mysterious Puzzle to me. It is for obsessive mad folk who listen to Radio 4 or live in climates too hot for them (fried brain is a terrible affliction).>>
Well, if you insist, but you don't know what you're missing....
BTW, one must have a brain for it to be fried....and the weather's just fine, thank you very much.... ;-)
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
Lataxie,
I'd lone my #45 to you, but am afraid the blades need a bit of fettling, actually to be honest, they need a LOT of fettling.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
My dear Lataxe, as you are now infected I can only give you the best prescription that I know. Look for a Record #405 aka #45 in it's box as it will be a better fit when you find all of the hollows and rounds and noising bottoms with cutters. You see they are a tad tight on a Clifton and looser on a #45. Be advised that Clifton is the only source of the "extra " cutters of this style and will fit all with a modicum of effort.
I am the happy custodian and user of a squadron of woodies-moulding, filister, l&r skews and dt. Also flock of 45's from old knob on main body to almost a virgin, a gaggle of 55's from stripped to copper to true virgin, and a full set of 405 almost nib with a full set of H&R&N nib . The only new is the Clifton with the extra cutters, acquired in a moment of weakness, a symptom you will shortly recognize. You have my sincere condolence, welcome to the very slippery slide. All of my very best, Patrick.
Dear Mr Patrick,
You are hording them multiplanes, by your own confession. Send the best one to me, as a penance for over-acquisitiveness of a very exagerated kind; and also for driving the price up.
Just now I am trying to prove (to myself) that handtools really are worth larnin', by way of building that Greene & Greene desk, in a manner most traditional (no false pins or panels for me - they are all real and cut with the handtools). Happily the desk does not require multiple profiles or kurly kews, being essentially dictated by function rather than a love of boofon wigs and lace hankies.
I expect to finish it before 2009 (just).
Lataxe
So do Clifton, Alf and I have one. Would you like to buy it?
Sheesh, feed a person's habit, why don't you. :) No, no; I confine myself to the out-of-production variety for my own sanity. Now if you had a Howkins...Cheers, Alf
Now I did have a Howkins a few years back and you would be hard pressed to find a more useless bit of kit! Are you looking for anything in particular? I will keep my eyes open for you if so.
Edited 3/3/2007 2:01 am ET by mufti
"Now I did have a Howkins a few years back and you would be hard pressed to find a more useless bit of kit!"Heh heh, never mind the function, feel the gizmocity! Definitely one designed by engineers rather than woodworkers I think. Trouble is I'm looking for "affordable" not to say "cheap" so I don't think Howkins ownership will be troubling me any time soon. But the offer is appreciated.Cheers, Alf
We are going on a bit here, but I look for cheap, I object to paying five bob for a cream bun. The Clifton cost just over £100 at auction and had not been used, I think it is a second by reason of casting marks but nothing else. The Howkins just under £50 and after reading about it in Woodworker I had intended to use it. I got my money back on selling.
All I meant to say was, if there is something you are looking for and I see it, I could put you in touch with the seller or get it and pass it on at the same cost. I have made a lifetime undertaking to not make money and I have succeeded.
>have made a lifetime undertaking to not make money and I have succeeded.<
That one made me laugh. Well you are from the same city in the UK as the members of the band Pink Floyd. You must've taken the warnings and admonitions in their song "Money" from Dark Side of the Moon to heart.
I am impressed by your perspicacity in following the line of musical attribution from my humble offering. However I was born and raised in Nottingham, and living in a terrace house adjoining that of Salvationists having an Organ in their front room, my early musical influence came from the followers of General William Booth, another man of Nottingham, to be followed by The Animals and Alan Price.
My wife, who is of sound mind, links my profound thoughts to those expressed by the character played by Peter Sellers in the film "Being There" which I believe is a compliment .
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