Just a note to beware of plywood imported from China.
My co-worker found a piece of steel,8″ long by 1/8″ embedded in a piece of 13 lam. 3/4″ birch ply, the hard way. He’s okay but shocked, and the blade is ruined. Sorry no photo at this time.
So much for quality control. Management here wanted to save a few bucks per sheet.
Replies
Do you suppose the supplier would stand behind the sale --- and at least refund money paid for the sheet, or even replace the ruined blade?
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"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Perhaps, but what if he wasn't wearing eye protection?
Loss of an eye or limb costs a lot more in court than a saw blade.
maybe they'll stand behind it like they did for my buddy who installed chinois prefinished flooring in his home only to find powder post beetles inhabiting it. I would guess the supplier wouldn't want that to get around in the trade eh? Oh it got replaced real quick. I dunno which word seems to be the more incomprehensible to some of the importers...quality or control?Eric
Being the cynical type through experiences with "biznezz", they really don't care. They know the average person out here is too busy and not organized so there is no incentive to improve.
Your smaller, local guy needs you and will respond accordingly but the larger corps and importers figure the percentages are in their favor and will take the occasional complaint as a trade off.
It comes down more and more to buyer beware and through avenues such as this we can help each other out. Maybe, through the internet, we will get a "bigger hammer" to balance things out a bit. Materials and/or tools, I know I've learned a lot through lurking here and am better informed now when I buy....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
It can happen regardless of country of origin. I found some barbed wire in some American made ply a few years ago.
I was amazed. I would have thought that there would have been bells and whistles going off when something like that went through a veneer lathe.
There was a thread about metal in plywood at WWA about 3 weeks back. And no, the supplier didn't give a rip about it, wouldn't do *&^%. Anyone vote for guvm'nt intervention? ROFL.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
F.G.: No vote here for government intervention but how bout' private intervention? Print up a discription of the situation and make copies. Take off a few hours and stand in front of the s.o.b.'s store who wouldn't stand behind the product he sold and hand them out, telling anyone interested what happened.
KDM"... if people did not die so untidily, most men, and all women, would commit at least one murder in their lives." R. Kipling
I just got a note from a friend in Southern California. He had picked up some shop birch ply and one sheet of cherry ply from his standard supplier. He cut them up and they proceeded to warp and twist. Went back and showed them to the guy, who replaced them. Instead of domestic ply as requested, he'd sold him imported ply. I'm gonna be careful from here on out and be sure and request domestic.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
F.G.: In my W.W. so far I have not used much in the way of sheet goods. It sound like it might be time for a full scale FWW article testing various plywoods etc. both domestic and foreign. KDM"... if people did not die so untidily, most men, and all women, would commit at least one murder in their lives." R. Kipling
Plywood will almost always warp, twist, cup, or bow. It is in the nature of the beast.
Because of the glue, when one side is exposed to a little moisture vapor, that side swells. The moisture cannot move through the panel and ever balance out, because of the glue that stops it. Plywood is supposed to be attached to something that will hold it flat.
Hal
This guy has been building things out of plywood and solid stock for decades. I think he knows defective ply when he sees it.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
My point is that I don't think the warp problem is because the plywood is imported. Most imported plywood that I see is much better quality than what is available domestically.
Please everyone, let's not start a big argument about whether made in the USA is better than anywhere else.
I only buy it from wholesalers though (not Home Depot), so maybe in southern California it is different, but I doubt it.
Storage prior to use makes a big difference in the warp factor though. For instance, if the plywood is stored in a damp warehouse with no heat, somewhere in southern Oregon where it was manufactured, then it ends up in Arizona or southern California 3 days later during a dry period, generally one side will dry out faster than the other making one side bow. It helps if it is warehoused in its new location for a period of time prior to use.
Also, if the sheet he bought was the top sheet in a unit that was sitting for a period of time as short as over night, then one side of the sheet becomes unbalanced and warps.
I see it all the time. I have also returned plywood that has warped. The seller always exchanges it with no argument as they know they can just sell it again to a production cabinet shop.
I have gotten melamine that was made in Canada that is still warm from the manufacturer. Until it balances, every cut comes out curved. It's just science.
Hal
Maybe you haven't noticed, but I've seen it reported here and at WWA -- there's a bunch of inferior plywood coming in from Asian countries and it's bad, bad stuff. Supposedly (I don't have verification) some of it is produced on off-shore ships. I'm not saying that's what he got at that trip, but it's part of the whole ply discussion.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I didn't see that thread.
I have purchased imported plywood that was not worth buying though. I'm not saying it is all good.
It was 1/4" cherry veneer over luan core with a birch substrate. The problem was not with the quality of the plywood, but with the thickness of the veneer which was thinner than poor quality printer paper.
I find that good hardwood plywood has a substrate of MDF. But even with that, if there is a moisture issue, like being anywhere near a dishwasher or sink, the MDF will fail and ruin the works.
The warping though, is a problem with balanced construction in relation to the moisture content of the surfaces. Improper storage can mess up any plywood. If the warehouse is dryer or damper than the shop it goes to, the plywood will warp in the shop.
It is unfortunate for your friend, and bad for everyone.
Hal
It's just my gut. not any quantitative data that leads me to say that any hardwood veneer ply over an MDf substrate would allow a thinner veneer and a smoother finsihed product. In essence, the increased weight factor may well lead to a better finish appearance , albiet inadvertantly through greater quality control. An MDF substrate would clearly let any QC manager establish closer tolerances for thickness variances ( than for say hardwwod VC plywoods) as well as cut costs by being able to use a thinner veneer face). And hey, if you can cut the costs of sanding by 20%, that's a buch of cash in a plywood mill. On the user side, an MDF backed veneer would be harder to damage, but would weigh more no doubt. It would also allow at least in theory the user to achieve a more desireable "flatness"in the finished product,and as we all know "FLATNESS impacts FINISH" I ain't made up my mind yets issue. It's a close call, and methinks the final appearance of the product is gonna be the determining factor. And I ain't ignorant as to which way the wind is blowing either. Eric in Calgary
"Plywood will almost always warp, twist, cup, or bow. It is in the nature of the beast." My friend called tonight for a chat. Turns out, that plywood twisted so badly that the corner was 6" off the axis as it would be drawn through the center of the sheet. Can't tell me that's normal. This stuff cost over $65/sheet. Definitely bad stuff.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG -
Where did your friend get his plywood and how many plies did it have?
About a year ago, I bought some paint grade maple ply from Home Depot (~$40 per sheet) and it was virtually useless. It only had five plies and there were huge voids in two of the sheets. Some of the pieces I cut out looked like potato chips the next day - lol.
Now, I get my ply from a local cabinet supply house and it's great stuff - nine plies and stable as a rock. I don't know where it comes from, but I love it. The only problem I had was resetting my stacked dado cutter. This ply is 11/16" instead of 23/32".
Hi, Dave. I don't have specific answers to your questions, but it was from the same plywood supplier he used for projects for some time, and not a Big Box. My understanding is they supply to various professionals, but keep some inexpensive ply in stock for those who want to go cheap. Sounds like he got the cheap stuff by accident.
I'm getting a little tired of this topic, to tell the truth, but Hal's insistance that all ply warps and twists, and this particular instance must have been a normal thing was so baseless I just had to say something. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forestgirl,
Sorry for the stress I added to your life! I'm actually a pretty nice guy once you get to know me.
I have used a lot of plywood over the years too. But I don't like it!
Keep smilin'!
Hal
I'm FG's friend.
12 plies and I bought it from one of my usual suppliers. Not a big box store. I'm leaving my suppliers name out because it wasn't their fault. They happily exchanged the cut up pieces for new sheets.
The plywood was defective. They told me they returned 3 pallets to their supplier because it was that bad. I've dealt with plywood for years (decades actually, but saying that just makes me feel really old). While I've had plywood warp, I've never seen (until now) plywood twist in opposing directions after it was cut. The replacement is 5 plies and domestic. BTW. It is a true 3/4 inch thick.
It has been Santa Ana conditions here in Southern CA, so I'm sure it contributed to the imported plywood demise but the domestic hasn't moved in the same conditions.
I normally buy domestic because it's more reliable. This time, my usual guy wasn't in and someone else took my order. I wasn't paying close attention. (My bad.)
Len
Hey Len,
I had to return some ApplePly a year ago. It was flat when I bought it. I cut it the same day (1/2 hour after purchase), and every piece came out twisted and curved so badly that I couldn't use it.
If you know ApplePly, it is considered to be good quality domestic plywood. 11 plys in a 1/2" thick sheet.
I returned it too, and there was no hassle about replacing it. My supplier also said that they were having a problem with it at the time.
I guess I'm just saying that it isn't just because it is imported.
Hal
Hey Hal,
I usually call my supplier before I head down to make sure he's got domestic. It sells fast. I find it more reliable and it's a true 3/4 inch thick. Although, the imported stuff I got is most likely a bad batch. Three pallets being returned is a good indication of that. It's really rather interesting debate. Domestic versus imported. I buy Baltic Birch or Finland Ply because it's stable and reliable and it's an import.
I think it's a matter of quality control not location. There will always be companies willing to save a few bucks and go with cheaper material. I may be opening a can of worms and by no means do I want to hijack this thread. But remember when Toyota and Honda were considered a cheap import? Now, they are considered quality, reliable cars.
BTW. I saw your work on your web site. Nice stuff.
Have a good one.
Len
Len,
Thanks for the compliment! I appreciate it.
As far as Toyotas and Hondas go, I remember that when I was in high school in the 60's, I had a math teacher that professed that his Toyota (Corona, I think) was the highest quality car anyone could buy, and that the only problem was that not enough people knew it. He also said that when everyone else figured it out, they would be the number 1 car company in the world.
After graduation, I owned a brand new 1973 Honda Civic. I could get 47 MPG with it if I drove really easy.
My second Toyota Prius (we own the first one that was delivered to Oregon), averages about 49 MPG if driven very hard, and 55 if driven normally. But if I fill up at Government Camp on Mt. Hood and drive downhill all the way home, I can get over 80, and it is not unusual for us to get over 60 in the summer.
What's this got to do with plywood?
Hal
<<< What's this got to do with plywood? >>>
This has to do with you saving gobs of $$$ so you can buy lots of good furniture grade plywood. (:0)...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Oh, good! I was thinking I had gotten off on a tangent and replaced the plywood with other comodities as some sort of a "moral to the story."
But if this is the way it works out, great!
Hal
PS I would buy some good boards, actually. They never go bad unless you mistreat them, and you can always use them, someday.
"...and you can always use them, someday." That's what I keep telling my hubbie. ROFL!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Here's a secret for you.
You don't always need to tell.
Shhh...
Hal
Good morning, Len! Thanks for checkin' in here. I know that you know what you're doin' but it helps to have the facts. "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts."
PS: Trust me, you're not that old. ROFL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
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