Hello
I have a lot to learn about plywood (beyond the ABCD rating), and this question is part of the process.
I’m building some shelving cabinets for the basement, and have lately experienced “sanded BC” plywood and “poplar” plywood (both 3/4″, both Low’s). The poplar is labeled “blondewood”, and is technically 9-ply but the outer plys/plies are so super thin that I’m not sure you can call them plies . The sanded BC is 5 ply.
The BC seemed a lot heavier and more durable, so I weighed it, and sure enough it weights almost 1.5x the poplar (same-sized piece). The poplar also has these “strings” in the middle (pic), it’s not something I’ve seem before and it seemed odd (and feels cheap).
I mainly want to ask/confirm that “go with the BC” is the correct choice here, even though the signage says the blondewood is for cabinetmaking. The cost is about the same ($49 for BC vs. $47 for blondewood). Beyond appearance, is there any reason to go with the blondewood? It’s the cellar, so I don’t care about appearance.
Any feedback is appreciated. I’d like to go with plywood, just because I don’t like MDF. I don’t even know why. It’s messy to cut and it doesn’t take screws well and I don’t trust it. It might be irrational but I’m ok with that.
Thanks.
Neal
Replies
I'm not sure I'm familiar with the BC, but I have used a fair amount of the blondewood from Lowe's-- though I've never seen that string in there, ever. For paint grade it's been pretty good, but I would never do anything but paint it.
I have never gotten decent plywood at Home Depot. Total crap.
I also hate MDF. I used it some about 20 years ago, but just hate working with it. I won't use it again.
Sanded BC is likely to be BC Fir, used in construction. It is good plywood but it is also quite rough even sanded but if you like the texture and looks, go for it. I have built most shelving with Home Depot poplar or hardwood plywood and its easier to work with and has smoother top and bottom layer of 1/64'' hardwood that has a cleaner look and feel.
I think you said it yourself, that it's in the basement and appearance isn't the most important factor. Lowes saying that it's for "cabinetmaking" is just marketing, and you should ignore it. Those strings are weird, that would be a deal breaker for me. I've also used their maple faced plywood, it's a little more expensive, but the face is so much better than the "blondewood" (also suspect marketing talk).
To clarify a bit, plywood is rated different ways and constructed in different manners
As a rule of thumb the poplar core plywood is inferior to veneer core for numerous reasons mostly it is more prone to voids and overlaps that create lumps in the plywood(I'm looking at you HD)
The BC rating refers to the quality of the veneer faces. A being the highest quality and free from knots and other imperfections, B being pretty good but small knots and other minor flaws are allowed , C is subject to larger knots and flaws and can contain plugs, those football shaped patches often seen in plywood, D is sheeting grade and not much used in woodworking projects.
The BC designation simply means one face is B grade and the second is C
The other thing to look for in plywood is how the veneer is cut. Big box stores sell Rotary cut plywood where the veneer is simply sliced off a spinning log which can result in unnatural grain patterns especially in woods like oak. This is cheaper than true furniture grade plywood which will have plain sliced or occasionally quarter sliced veneers which gives it the appearance of glued up panels and is sometimes bookmatched. This plywood is often graded as A1 meaning it has one A grade face with the second usually being B grade suitable for most furniture plywood uses. In some cases, think center panels of bookcases where both sides are exposed you may need A2 grade which has 2 A grade sides and is generally the most expensive.
I hope this helps shed some light on the subject.
To answer your basic question, either will serve your purpose but I avoid poplar core if I can. The "blondewood" designation is just used by the big box stores so they don't have to commit to a particular species of wood which let's them source their plywood from multiple sources and is most likely birch or soft maple but could be other similar tight grained light colored woods.
They’re shelves. Either one will work.
MDF would not, even if you wanted to use it.
You may also want to consider OSB or particle board. Avoiding MDF is correct.
It’s basement shelving.
Mike
Thanks for the feedback and information. Still haven’t figured out what I’ll do for future cabinets, but for this one I’ll finish with the blondewood since I’m halfway through. FYI that stringy stuff doesn’t extend the full length, but it does travel about 12” along length. It might stop at what seems to be a seam (which happens to be right where my dado is)
That string is complimentary. Its there in case you need to pop a line........crickets
I have a couple of follow-up questions, if I may, related to order-of-assembly and glue. The way I did it was attach the sides to the bottom, then the top (both glue and screw). Then I made sure it was square, and attached the back (screw only). Then I fitted the 3 shelves in, and screwed (only).
Getting the shelves in the dados was possible, but difficult (heavy use of rubber mallet required). If I had to do it again, which I will, I'd probably get the shelves in first before attaching the back.
So, what's the easiest order-of-assembly for something like this, or is that a personal preference thing? Should I be using glue for back and shelves, or is that overkill?
As always, thanks. You're all very helpful!
Neal
I would attach bottom and top, slide shelves in from back.
If the dados are too tight, you can hammer along the edges of the shelves ("kill the wood") this is a Japanese ww'ing technique. Or, simply sand them a bit.
Nothing on a cabinet needs to be glued.
For future projects I would recommend avoiding the big box stores and finding your local hardwood provider. Most will carry a selection of quality cabinet grade plywood. Give them a call and ask them and, at a minimum, they should be able to point you in the right direction.
Neal
Your order of assembly was pretty good except as you noted the back should be last. I will ask if you had done a dry fit assembly before final assembly? One of the purposes of doing dry fitting is to identify problem areas like dadoos that may be too tight and correct them before final assembly.
I also will strongly disagree with another poster in that I would glue everything, my experience is that screws don't hold particularly well when screwed into the edge of plywood, especially poplar core and the glue greatly strengthens the joint.
I don't know what your goals are for woodworking but even though these are basement shelves use the opportunity to refine your skills on projects like this, so that when you want to make something a little nicer you will be ready. To me that would mean no screws, at least not visible ones anyway. The back could be Brad nailed if not fully captured but other than that it would be glue only.
It looks pretty good by the way.
For units with dados, I do a side with top, bottom, and all shelves, then add the other side, then the back.
With tapered sliding dovetailed shelves, I do the top, bottom, and both sides, then slide in the shelves. Then the back.
With utility shelves and plywood, I don't use fancy joinery. I use battens under the sides and back of shelves.
“[Deleted]”
Just as a matter of curiosity - how can HD import white pine from New Zealand instead of buying US sourced products? I've also seem wood from Chile and Ecuador.
Obviously, they are not paying more than US sourced materials. How can it be cheaper to transport those distances - unless the production costs are zero.
I have no complaints with the quality, which I can't say for some stuff. Today I made some eggcrate dividers of 1/4" poplar. When the wouldn't fit the dadoes, I pulled out the caliper - one side of the 6" width was 1/32" thicker than the other - good grief, does nobody care about quality any more?
Any opinions?
Lumber export from NZ, Chile, and a few other places, at least as seen in the home center stores, is generally a quasi-yellow pine called Radiata Pine (Pinus radiata is the scientific name). It’s got some but not all the characteristics associated with native yellow pine. It’s easy to grow, and it grows fast, and straight. It’s also somewhat brittle, esp. compared to other pine species.
Interestingly, the species is native to North America—the west coast, basically—where it’s known as Monterey Pine. The silviculture cultivar was developed for what we see in those racks at the home centers.
I know this thread is getting old, but it did remind me that while the production costs of imported plywood won't be zero, the transport costs might come surprisingly close. Ocean freight is cheap. When you can pack a lot of something into a container and you amortize the costs of the container across all those things, the transport cost per unit is quite tiny. I'm sure a containerload of plywood must be hundreds of sheets. Ironic when you consider that if you put a UPS label on a postcard and sent it next door it would cost you like $6. It's all about scale. Driving individual things to individual addresses is expensive. Scale makes moving things, even over very long distances, super cheap.
Excellent point that I failed to mention. Thanks for adding that.
Quality?? No, they do not. Buyer beware. Treat all stock as if it is rough-sawn and measure it; or buy oversize, acclimate it and mill it. There is no product pride at a bigbox store. You are buying a sticker with a barcode on it, nothing more is promised.
I’m resurrecting this post because I have another plywood quality problem. I got a 4x8 sheet of 23/32 sanded BC plywood from Lowe’s. I ripped 12” off the long edge with circular saw, leaving me with 36”x96” keeper piece. On the keeper piece, two of the (intact) ply’s separated from the other three. Not just along the edge but pretty far (15”-”18) into the sheet.
I’m usually pretty loosie goosie but it kinda steams me. Is this just yet another example of us going to hell? Is the quality of plywood better at my “local” lumber yard? If so, I’ll drive the extra distance. There’s a Georgia Pacific stamp on it, not sure if that info is worth anything.
You are seeing the product of the ongoing degradation of building materials. This stems from several sources, overall wood quality is lower with the reliance on faster growing species vs the old growth forest of old, shifts in adhesives to more environmentally friendly versions, and pricing pressures from big box chains like Lowe's, Home Depot, and others. I'm sure companies such as Georgia Pacific are cable of producing quality products, and may for other dealers, but big box stores are price, not quality, driven and given a choice will always choose cheap over quality. My suggestion is to return the faulty sheet and find a local dealer who sells Baltic Birch plywood for shop or paint grade projects. I buy ¾" veneer, not poplar core plywood from my local hardwood dealer for $72 a sheet compared to $71 /sheet at Lowe's for poplar core birch plywood.
A couple of years ago, I had stripped a bathroom to the studs, and need to fur out some studs a quarter inch. So I grabbed a sheet of ply at HD and ripped some straps to tack to the studs.
It was like I was living in a cartoon. As the steps came out the other side of the table saw, they came out as single plies. Just peeled apart like peeling a banana. Just crap.
I'm not sure what there is closer to you, but there is a great place in Avon for plywood. Barney and Carey. Very small place. But they have Baltic birch plywood in all thicknesses for good prices. Avon isn't too far from you.
Thanks for tip, I don’t mind going to Avon. Closet lumber place for me is Hingham Lumber (on 3A just over Cohasset line). They don’t have a great hardwood selection. Is there reason to expect their plywood might be better than big box? I don’t understand plywood wholesale market.
When judging plywood the more veneer layers the better this is what I refer to as veneer core, hopefully voidless, plywood which is how all plywood used to be made but years ago the manufacturers decided it was cheaper to make plywood with fewer thicker layers of cheap abundant woods like poplar, hence we get what I refer to poplar core plywood. They also stopped worrying about voids and overlap and the result is the crap sold by the Big Home Centers today. The easiest way to avoid this is to stop buying wood at these National chains and look for other local sources of your wood. Many local lumber dealers survive by keeping higher quality products to serve the pros who want better products than the big box stores carry.
I'll try to take a few pictures comparing good quality plywood and mediocre. Maybe start a new thread. As Esch said, the number of plies is a good place to start looking. It's harder to gauge, but good quality plywood has thicker show faces.
Lots of things. Plywood is more complicated than you'd think.
Thanks again to you both. No need for pics John2. I’ll use “more plys = good” and “no big box store” as my guide.
It’s expected with box store ply.
You need to get it from a cabinet supplier and bring your wallet when you go.
Thumbs up on the Baltic birch ply. The real stuff, not the big box junk.
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