Replies

1. 
   SgianDubh | Aug 15, 2003 05:54am | #1

   Dennis, he's probably reasoning that the useful life of your kitchen will max out at about ten years.

   After that it'll all be ripped out and replaced with newer and trendier. Piatra Cardova-- whatever that is-- will be out of style, and ripe for replacement by then, ha, ha.

   This is America, the land of the disposable and wasteful trinket we are talking about, isn't it? I'll have a cynical wee chortle over the idea of longevity in a modern kitchen. Rightly, or wrongly, the cheapest joinery method tends to be appropriate. Can you spot the lump in my cheek? Slainte.

   Website

1. 
   sawduster | Aug 15, 2003 06:04am | #2

   Shame on you for being so right.

1. 
   SgianDubh | Aug 15, 2003 06:27am | #3

   Oh b_gger off-- you cynic, you, ha, ha. Slainte.Website

1. 
   DennisS | Aug 15, 2003 07:14pm | #4

   Sgian -

   Deep down inside, where I seldom let people look, I suspect you're right. I only plan on living in this particular house the rest of my life so perhaps I'm overstressing on the issue of longevity with respect to how I do things during the remodel. Like why should I bother putting tile on a traditional mortar set bed in the shower when green paper over some compressed brown powder would probably serve well for a few years. Why should it matter to anyone but me that some degree of care beyond making the two ends of the frame meet at a common plane? Why make it so difficult to demolish the cabinets at the end of their transient service?

   Nawwwwwww .... just can't do it.

   I'll know the difference and that's the ..... uhhh .... difference............

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

1. 
   SgianDubh | Aug 15, 2003 07:34pm | #5

   All fair points, Dennis. I'm glad you spotted where my tongue was as I typed my post, ha, ha. Slainte.Website

2. 
   WayneL5 | Aug 16, 2003 06:07am | #6

   Half laps are harder to make, so if done well do speak of craftsmanship.  But, no one sees them.  And half laps are a cross grain situation which is not the best unless the pieces are narrow.

   I've used pocket screws a lot, and they always work well.  Usually I use glue because, with the added pressure from the screws, the joints stay tight.  I always use glue if the member is too narrow to use more than one screw, because with one screw the piece can twist.

   If you need to support a heavy top, I would not depend on either.  I'd run a sturdy board end to end behind the top of the frame to actually carry the weight of the stone.

1. 
   Sancho | Aug 16, 2003 06:59am | #7

   kreg tool has a study on their website where they tested the ph joint vs other types. It exceeds the m&t joint for strength 

   Darkworks:  No Guns No Butter squilla and the bling bling.

3. 
   Tao | Aug 16, 2003 06:09pm | #8

   Your Cabinet builder, if he is any kind of a production shop, is set up to do cabinets a certain way, and any change in basic construction technique is going to be very expensive for him.  You also can expect quality of execution problems because of learninig curve.  If you don't like his joinery, you should try someone else.

   I'm a traditional woodworker, and prefer hand cut joinery when doing "best" work.  I use router cut mortises and jig-cut tenons on the few cabinet face frames I make. but that really is excessive.  The face frames don't carry any weight to speak of except for the doors, and you get more stability by gluing the stiles to the cabinet dividers than any joint will give.  All large commercial shops that I have seen in the last 15 years or so use pocket screws, and face frame joints are definitely not a problem.

   The weight of the top is carried mainly by the cabinet sides and dividers.  A face frame rail will bend noticeably under thumb pressure, no matter what the joint at the ends.  As a practical matter, the type of joint in this application only influences how well the jioint stays tight.

   Half lap joints are a pretty poor joint.  You have a cross grain gluing problem, and the joint doesn't work without glue or fasteners.  Well made M&T holds up pretty well when it is just dry fitted, and when draw pegged, holds up virtually forever, as evidenced by a lot of the 300 and 400 year old church furniture I've seen in Europe.  In over 30 years of professional woodwork, I din't think I've ever used or even seen a half lap joint on any furniture.

   I saw the claim made on the Kreg web site, but they don't give any details of tenon width, length, thickness.  I find their results highly suspect.  Still, given the choice between half laps and pocket screws, I'd take the pocket screws every time, despite my prejudice.  This applies on cabinet face frames only., of course.  Just my opinion, but based on a lot of training and experience.

   Michael R

4. 
   ron61 | Aug 17, 2003 01:52am | #9

   Pocket hole connections in kitchen cabinets work just fine for face frames.

    Your bottom rails is glued to the plywood bottom and the rest glued to the box -  glides hold up your drawers. The doors and drawers rest against or inset the openings - The face frame isn't really going anywhere. They are plenty strong for face frames.

   If I were him I would do the half laps you want and raise the price 20 %.

   I would be more concerned with the backs in the cabinets and how they attached to the walls.

   Ron 

   Who Ever Has The Biggest Pile Of Tools When You Die Wins

5. 
   Clay | Aug 17, 2003 11:43pm | #10

   I agree with Woodwiz.  I have used pocket hole joints for many face frame projects on very high-end jobs and have always been pleased with the results.  I would consider half lap joints to be very amateurish and prone to many problems.  I know many professionals who consistently use pocket hole joinery and none who consistently use half laps.  You can look at this as some sort of cosmic coincidence or accept the fact that your personal pet joinery method is not an accepted industry standard for what may very well be a good reason.  Insist upon them if you will but your neighbor is right, and you will be happier in the end if you listen to him.

6. 
   SVSander | Sep 23, 2003 02:50am | #11

   In my opinion either the half-lap joint or pocket hole screws will result in adequate strength for face frame construction (unless, as pointed out before, that the members are wide enough that cross-grain problems will result). The face frame probably contributes very little to the load-carrying ability of the cabinet.

   That being said, I prefer not to use mechanical fasteners when I can aviod them and would not use pocket-hole screws in this situation -- I normally use mortise and tenon or bridle joints, depending on where they fall. I am the first in a long line of family members who got a college degree and didn't make my living as a cabinet/furniture maker -- woodworking is a hobby for me. When one of my favorite uncles was visiting he looked at a project I had going in the shop (garage). His comment was: "I used to work with joints like that until I had to make a living at it. I can't take the time any more." In my opinion, the fact that pocket-hole screws are an industry standard has little or nothing to do with joint strength, it is speed that matters -- and as long as the strength is adequate for the application there is nothing wrong with speed.

   As previously recommended, if you don't like the approach your neighbor uses in his shop find someone else to do the work. I know that if it were me the fact that the mechanical fasteners are there would always bug me just a little bit.

   Good luck,

   Dick Baker

1. 
   DennisS | Sep 23, 2003 05:55am | #12

   SV -

   You hit the nail on the proverbial head (pun intended). Just knowing that the joints were merely butted and screwed together would make me feel like I was living a lie! (grin)

   Perhaps someday I'll get over being a joinery snob, though, and learn to live in the 21st century. (hehehe)

   As for the neighbor doing the work, his schedule is so full right now it looks like I'll be doing the cabinets anyway.

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]