I am thinking of switching from mortise and tenon to pocket hole for assembly of table leg sets for small run production. I have seen the Kreg set but have never used one. Any comments or suggestions?
Thanks,
Rich
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Replies
I love mine. I can't remember how pocket screws compare to mortise and tenon in strength. Thought there was an article on that a while back.
Bill
Thanks for the reply. The mortise & tenon plus glue blocks has worked well for 15 years. However as I am now approaching 15 shows a year plus special requests I can no longer spend the time making a good fit plus clamp time using the M & T exclusively. Of course if the pocket hole method does not hold tight over time then I will not use it.
Rich
Pocket screws with glue will hold tight that is not a problem . Mostly it may be an asthectic issue or quality vs production methods .
regards dusty
I've been using the Kreg system for about three years and can't imagine not having it. I don't think that pocket screws are as strong as M&T, and it really seems to annoy the purists, but I've never had a joint fail. Clamping and waiting are things of the past, too! - lol
One problem I had on my last project (a fireplace mantle) came from setting the drill stop collar too deep. I assembled the plywood pieces of the legs and apron with 1.25" coarse thread pocket screws. When I shot the finish, I had three pea sized sand thrus at the joints.
I think that the screws went a little too deep in the plywood and slightly raised the surface on the adjoining piece. I didn't notice it during sanding, but it stood out like a sore thumb when I shot the clear finish.
I'll test this theory tomorrow when I do it over.
I started using pocket joinery for most of my case work and face frames a few years ago and it really ramped up production.
I'm not sure I would use it in place of M&T for table leg construction however. Aside from the strength issue I feel that it "cheapens" solid wood furniture. That said, I never seem to make as much money for the amount of time I spend on furniture vs. cabinetry.
Another thought is to use the pocket screws and then cover them up with well placed glue blocks. I've cheated with this method a few times. ;)
Matt
http://www.oldgreenwoodworking.com
"Another thought is to use the pocket screws and then cover them up with well placed glue blocks. I've cheated with this method a few times. ;)"Matt,Clever. Even sneaky.To all,Personally, I don't care for the look of pocket holes and am hesitant to use it in my fine work. That said, I do own the Kreg K3 system and use it a lot for "quick and dirty" stuff and like it quite a bit for such tasks. I find that for most tasks, I don't use the fancy base, but rather clamp the jig directly onto the workpiece with the projection jig attached.Mind the creep when you drive the screws home!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com
and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com) - Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 10/28/2009 2:47 am by flairwoodworks
I appreciate the comments. From my experience I have never sold a piece because it used M & T joinery. I almost never get asked if I use it unless it is by another who builds furniture. People walk into my display and the conversation is almost always on design and finish. I do sell tables regularly for $700 + to individuals who are seeing the piece for the first time. When I take an order the type of wood , the taper of the legs, and the size of course are all that matters to the patron. If pocket hole joinery works and lasts I do not think it is cheating. If I do try I will see how the work "feels". I tried dowels about ten years ago. They worked. However the completed pieces lacked something. Something I saw but did not affect sales. I stopped using dowels. If I try the pocket hole maybe the same thing will happen or maybe I will have sense of freedom. More time for design.
Thanks again for the response.
Rich
Hi Chris ,
There is a difference between fine furniture and cabinetry and this is where M & T vs pocket screws comes into play imo .
I started out with dowels but about 25 years ago switched to screws , but mostly what I do is case work and cabinets .I have never had a client even ask .
It seems that you do more furniture as opposed to case work , how do you put face frames together ?
I don't use the screws in real furniture either but for my custom production shop pocket screws is the way to go for cabinetry .
Also I don't own a Kreg but I have seen the hole and my opinion is it is steeper than my set up is and will cause more creep .
regards dusty,time to drill some pocket holes this a.m.
Dusty,I am definitely more of a furniture maker than a cabinet maker. I do not like building plywood boxes. A few months ago, I would have said that I dislike building cabinets, but I have gained a greater appreciation for cabinets such as those that Krenov makes. I have never made a face frame, but I would probably make it with lap joints.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
You don't need to worry about "creep" using pocket holes if you do it right. You need to use their clamps, and know which way the joint will want to creep.
Not necessarily Kreg's clamps, but certianly clamps. Your weight/hand pressure won't cut it!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I've used pocket holes on table aprons for nearly 50 years. But about 3 years ago I won a K3 kit and decided to test for myself how well the system would hold up for me. I built this roll-around shop box entirely with pocket screw joinery. No glue anywhere. So far, so good! Bottom 2 drawers hold routers, and other heavy stuff. Top 2 hold chisels and measuring tools. Back is pegboard screwed in, carrying ext cords. Last spring I tested each screw (top lifts off, in case of maintenance!) and none were loose. Not saying your application will be OK, but simply here's a real-life example.
View Image
On page 60 of John Townsend Newport Cabinetmaker there's a closeup of the underside of a circular card table. Looks like pocket screws to me, and nobody complained about the workmanship.
Jim
Thank you for your answer. Your piece is very impressive. As I rely on my work for 100% of my income I am interested in long term and production plus special requests. No matter what the time period the concern was design and style not joinery. Built to last, yes. But beauty is foremost. I think it was Stickely who said that one should not have anything in their home that was not useful or beautiful. I spend hours matching planks for a piece. The joinery if lasts for gererations? Screws or whatever, the quiet beauty is the ultimate goal.
Rich
Sounds like you are geared to do a production runs , for the best take a look at the Castle machine , the slot or ramp is routed not drilled , very clean operation .
Pocket hole joinery has been around a long long time , used in the right application can add strength .Pocket holes obviously are not a fix all for every joint .
For face frame work the screws allow for great accuracy and speed along with glue in this application they are super , and no waiting or clamping .
Here is a look at a little old desk I worked on recently , check out the size of the pocket holes , the desk was probably no newer than about 75 years so you could say they lasted on this piece .
regards dusty
I inherited a Heppelwhite card table that was made about 1850-1880 that has the top secured with pocket holes much to my suprise
Yes, the top will be secured with screws and little or no glue. This was done to allow for shrinkage of the top. The screws were used because they will allow some movement.
I would agree with you that the Castle machines are the way to go for production runs. Since they are relatively expensive for small shops you might want to consider the Porter-Cable manual version of the machine (which, by the way, the rights to manufacture were sold to by the then owner of Castle Mfg.).
I bought and used the Castle machines in my business for years. I originally bought the first machine sold with the serial #2 (they kept th original for modification testing purposes.) I used that machine until it wore out and could no longer be repaired (they took the machine back for museum purposes.) We eventually owned several machines including the heavy duty ones. We machined hundreds of thousands of pockets in our store fixture business and couldn't live without it.
At the risk of being pedantic:
“Have nothing in your house that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful”
-William Morris
Amateurs talk strategy, Generals talk logistics.
Pocket hole joinery is fine for low budget work but if you want your work to last, Do it right
It's just not true that pocket hole screws are found only in low budget work. To add to what I said about Townsend, here's a quote from American Furniture of the 18th Century by Jeffrey P. Greene, page 286. This is from the structural notes for a Sheraton card table: "The top is joined to the base by screws extending at an angle through pockets in the aprons into the underside of the top." The screws wouldn't be seen, of course, unless you crawled under the table, and would allow some wood movement. They've lasted 2 centuries so far.
Jim
Maybe one's preference for using pocket holes can (loosely) be determined by whether you:
a) Work to live or
b) Live to workEDIT: And I mean really, really loosely. I know that there are many fine woodworkers who make a very good living without using pocket holes. But pocket holes are quick and easy and do hold well. That sounds profitable to me. I use tenons in my work sometimes because I enjoy cutting them, and I also like the look of them. And yes, I can also say that this piece was made using tenons.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com
and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com) - Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 10/29/2009 2:23 pm by flairwoodworks
"and would allow some wood movement"Yes, screws are OK when you want the joint to move or come apart. They are never considered to be quality work when used in place of a M&T or dowels. Anything worth doing is worth doing right.
rushisaliar ,
You have made several references to dowels vs pocket screws , I beg to differ with your thoughts that dowels are some how better or higher quality .
Some applications usually when aesthetic a dowel is more appropriate .
My experience is largely in cabinetry with face frames ,I started out using dowels , but here is what we learned since then .
The tensile strength of an 1/8" steel screw is much greater then 3/8" of wood dowel , the dowel is only for alignment , dowels do not pull the joint tight as a screw does . The main reason for production shops using pocket screws is accuracy , dowels are notoriously not all the same size .Not only accuracy but speed and strength adds to the beauty of pocket screws .
The pocket hole is certainly a production method and there are many ways to do the same thing , can you suggest a better more accurate or stronger production method for joining face frames ?
regards dusty, just screwing around
There's an interesting blog entry on this exact subject here:
http://blog.woodshopnews.com/tbaw/?p=140#more-140Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Someone said "Mind the creep when you drive the screws home!" and I second that.
It helps a lot if you clamp the joint tight with a bar or pipe clamp, just as if it were a just-glued m&t joint, before and during driving your pocket screw home. In other words, don't let the screw "pull the joint together". If you do let the screw pull the joint together, it's going to do it at the angle of the screw, and you will get an offset at your show face. (This offset is facilitated by the lubricant of glue at the join). The small vice-grip face clamps provided by Kreg supposedly avoid this outcome but they can't and don't by themselves.
I've come to use both the Kreg face clamps and a long bar or pipe clamp to align and then force the "glue face" tightly together before setting the screw. Once the screw is set I remove both clamps and move to the next joint. No more offset, and it only requires one more clamp while I'm driving the screw.
Yes to that. Even with a pilot hole I find screws will rarely draw two pieces together without help. As Dusty mentioned before screws will hold tight for a very long time- if set properly - as you have described.
If you don't already have one, you should get a cordless impact driver to drive your pocket screws. Nice tight joints every time and if you use the truss head screws you'll hardly ever sink them too deep in hardwood as long as your jig is set properly. If your looking for an affordable small production pocket hole machine, I've had good success with my Kreg Foreman. It has held up well on over a half dozen houses full of cabinetry and even gets drug out to the job sites for some interior trim projects. It has paid for itself several times already.Matthttp://www.oldgreenwoodworking.com
Agreed, exactly. I built two face frames, each for a bathroom vanity. I learned, quickly enough, not to rely on the screws pulling the pieces together. Assembly became a little clunky with the various long clamps needed to squeeze the top/bottom rails to the stiles.Like any system, once you learn the quirks, you plan for them. I'd use pocket screws again, no problem.In terms of using pocket screws for fine woodworking, sure, why not? There is no need to appease the Ghosts of Craftsmen Past. Ever see one o' them honorific six board chests that use cut nails to hold it together? Gasp! A small spike of metal needed to keep two pieces of wood stuck together. Sounds like an early version of a pocket screw to me.Edited 10/30/2009 12:23 am ET by Hamelech <!-- HAMELECH -->
Edited 10/30/2009 12:24 am ET by Hamelech
Have you considered the Domino? It's pricey but it does an awesome job, is quick and reproducable. Thre are now 6 different domino sizes from which to choose. Further, the domino can quickly and securely do butt, miter face frame and more. Multiple dominos can be ganged together or done in tandom to create a very strong joint in larger pieces.
I have the Kreg pocket jig and think it's fine. But i think the pockets are unsightly and require additional effort to conceal. I prefer the M&T joint because I feel it makes a statement about my work, much more so than the pocket joint.
My 2 cents.
Cheers
I love my domino! Easy strong and fast. I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.George Burns
Something else that you might consider is a faster way to make your mortise and tenons.
I think that I've seen in test results that floating tenons are every bit as strong as the traditional variety. And they are fast. All you need are a plunge router, a spiral up cut bit (or end mill bit), and a jig of your choosing.
You will have to decide on what kind of jig you want to use, and then learn how to use it, but once you've done that, you may well find that it provides you with the speed that you need and the traditional look that you want.
Re jigs, there commercial ones, and articles abound on making a "universal" one for yourself.
Mike Hammer (I think) posted his favorite approach using a guide bushing in a purpose made jig for any given job - the jig is fast to make and gives you tremendous flexibility.
Fodder for thought.
Mike D
I don't believe a couple screws will hold as well as a well designed, friction fit and well-glued mortise and tenon joint. There is clearly a time savings, and that is why hanger bolts and screws are used on Crate and Barrel (and similar) furniture. Applications such as dining tables, where users "push off" when getting up, place constant lateral stress on apron-leg joints and very little stress on apron-tabletop joints. In that sense, it seems that using screws and/or hanger bolts to join apron and leg means the table is designed and built for a finite lifetime. In the extreme, dining tables and such are built as disposable furniture.
And there is a clear difference between pocket screwing a tabletop to an apron and pocket screwing an apron to legs. Tabletops are almost always attached to aprons with screws, so in that sense pockets, figure 8's, wooden buttons, and such are all very similar.
Pocket screws have very valid uses in my opinion, including some uses in "fine furniture," but not apron-leg joints. Just my opinion.
I've used pocket screws for many years in cabinetry, mainly for face frame construction. If your just attaching the aprons to the side of the leg, then this will actually hold OK, but if you want it to hold together for any length of time under usage, then you need to have additional cross bracing of some sort. Definitely not as strong as a mortise and tenon or floating tenon, but much faster. You do need to clamp tightly before you screw to avoid misalignment as mention by others that have posted.
Edited 11/10/2009 1:44 pm ET by brownman <!-- BROWNMAN9 -->
Edited 11/10/2009 1:44 pm ET by brownman
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