I have been contemplating buying a kreg jig for pocket hole drilling. I am currently gluing face frames together using biscuits/glue/clamps. Thinking of switching to pocket holes to save time (not having to wait for the glue to dry in clamps). Not to mention most of my competition is using them to assemble face frames. I am thinking maybe they know something I do not.
So here are my questions:
Has anyone here used pocket hole joints specifically for face frames, and why do you like or dislike them?
Do you think they are stronger/weaker than biscuits?
Do you use any glue on the joint? It would seem pointless, since the mating pieces are end grain to long grain. But I will let the experts decide.
Lee
Replies
Has anyone here used pocket hole joints specifically for face frames, and why do you like or dislike them?
Yes, I've used them, and I like them a lot. They are just as easy, and take about the same amount of time as a biscuit -- but they add steel to the joint. In addition, alignment is a breeze.
Do you think they are stronger/weaker than biscuits?
Stronger -- most studies on biscuits have left me wanting.......
Do you use any glue on the joint?
Yes, but perhaps this is just for psycological satisfaction more than real added strength. It's easy enough, costs almost nothing, and can't hurt (other than maybe some squeeze out).
Support our Troops. Bring them home. Now. And pray that at least some of the buildings in the green zone have flat roofs, with a stairway.
I have used them for the Face frames for the new house I just built. The frames are made from Cherry.
They systems works very well and I have had little issues with it. However once while using it I did manage to blow out frame i was screwing into as the screw just split the wood. This seams like it could be an issue with this system as the system does not drill a pilot hole of any sort in the secound peice.
But over all they worked well and were very fast. Only think I really liked about the system was the fact that once they were screwed together you could continue on. No waiting for the glue to dry and no running out of clamps. So it is faster then the other systems.
Doug Meyer
I've used them not only for face frames but for many other projects as well. I believe that wood magazine did a test on most of the type of joints and the pocket hole was consisently stronger than even the mortise and tennon.
Have you checked the depth stop on the bit. It seems like mine does make a small hole in the second piece. I have used pocket screws quite a bit and never had a problem with blow out.
I use pocket screws all the time for face frames. I glue just to help keep the whole thing in alignment until it's fixed to the cabinet. I don't think strength is really an issue, whether biscuits or pocket screws, since either are strong enough and fastening the frame to the cabinet is what really ends up holding everything together. If you plan to use these, I suggest you invest in a couple of clamps. Kreig makes them (or at least sells them in conjunction with their jigs). They look like vice grips with large pads on the jaws. They really help a lot in keeping everything aligned when you drive the screw home.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Thanks everyone for what sounds like great advice. I think I will take the plunge and give it another shot.
I did try the kreg jig out once before, but wasn't very impressed. However, I wasn't using the clamps like Mike suggested to keep the parts aligned. And that was my major complaint, that the faces weren't aligned as well as I would have liked. I already have 1 of those vise-grip clamps, but I think I will pick up another when I get the jig, and mortise them into my layout table. I'm sure that would help things out quite a bit.
1 more question:
Does the clamp eliminate any lateral movement when joining 2 pieces at 90 degrees? I also seemed to remember some "slippage" sideways when trying to drive the screws home.
Lee
yes you can get slippage. The only time I've had major issues is when you want a dado for a shelf or something. I've gone to the leigh FMT. I still use the pocket hole screws in areas where it a) doesn't show b) where there's no dadotrimjim
Assuming your pieces are milled to be of equal thicknesses, yes, the clamp does a good job of preventing movement, both laterally and horizontally. Also, the clamps I use are not designed such that they could be incorporated into a bench. See below:
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Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
There are two types of vise grip clamps i have seen used in Kreg ads. The two flat pad type and the one that has a pointed end that fits into one of your drilled pocket holes with the other arm being the flat pad type.
I've used the first type one and it works well
Has anyone used the pointed version? What advantages does it have?
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
Ken, the clamp that has one end that fits into the pocket hole is for right-angle assembly.
For anyone considering using pocket screws on face frames, I would urge you to check out the 10"x10" steel plate with locking clamp made by Kreg. It is definitely worth the money.
View Image
I never liked the clamps with 2 flats because I don't like hanging the joint off the bench while trying to screw it together.
Here's Kreg's description of the one I meant.
Our Right Angle Clamp helps to align workpieces in 90 degree registration. The clamp is designed with a 3/8" steel pin on one arm that fits down into the pocket hole and anchors the workpiece firmly against the second workpiece to be joined. The opposite arm is fitted with a 180 swiveling pad that automatically adjusts to your material dimensions. Finish the joint by driving a screw into the adjacent pocket hole. Also great for assembling all types of box joints.
MSRP: $24.99
View Image
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
Ken,Here's a review of the Kreg system that includes a review of the Right Angle Clamp:http://www.onlinetoolreviews.com/reviews/kregk2000.htmDan
I used them in all my cabinets, and I figure it is a very good method. It allows you to fasten into end grain with great strength, as well as normal meets. I didn't use glue, because I am never sure when the last time I have to adjust something is, and have not suffered from that. I made a simple 90degree jig to clamp to, and had no problems after that. I think pocket holes are the way. Lee Valley sells you a jig with a stepped drill for pilot holes. Check it out.
Lee asked..."Does the clamp eliminate any lateral movement when joining 2 pieces at 90 degrees? I also seemed to remember some "slippage" sideways when trying to drive the screws home. ?
The slippage that you noticed is not abnormal, and is increased just a bit when you use glue due to the lubrication effect of the glue. Usually, however, the slippage is on the order of a 32nd to a 16th of an inch.
Kreg has "sort of" acknowledged this issue in their latest tips vidio by suggesting the use of a "hard stop" when doing any angle work - both 90 degrees and 45 degrees. The vidio shows you how when working with a 1/4" offset when joining at 90 degrees to a table leg, and when joining at 45 degrees.
Kreg doesn't directly address what to do in the case of a frameless kitchen cabinet where you want to end up with a smooth 90 degree corner, but others have suggested that you "not try to be a hero and set the edges flush", but rather to set up to leave the show edge proud by a smidge, so that you can easily bring it flush with your sander if it ends up proud when the joint is completed.
Since even that small of a slippage means that the cabinet ends up not square, I prefer to put a clamp across for the joint to butt up against while I'm setting the screws so that it can't move. I also set the drill bit a little too deep so that the pilot hole pierces the exit plane, thus evading a little bit of the push up and slide effect when you don't.
(I know, that's compulsive, but it works :) ).
Mike D
Edited 3/4/2007 1:28 pm ET by Mike_D
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the tips. I'm setting up the K3 tonight for some test runs, and tomorrow I plan to crank out about 20 or so face frames, provided I don't have any problems. I did make an alignment jig with 2 - 90 degree brackets and 2 of those kreg bench clamps for when I drive the screws home. (thanks for the tip, pins)
I like your idea about having the pilot hole exit the workpiece. I was planning to try that myself, as another poster mentioned earlier in the thread he was getting a little bit of wood accumulation between the 2 pieces when he drove the screws, which led to the joint not closing up as tight as he liked.
Lee
Edited 3/4/2007 10:08 pm by mapleman
You are welcome! How did your experiment turn out?
One thing that I forgot to mention is.... when making face frames where you intend to rout an edge profile onto the frame after it's assembled with pocket screws.
That thing is to be sure that you offset that pocket closest to the to-be-routed-edge towards the center of the frame to take that screw completely out of the range of the router bit. Otherwise, bad words follow. As others have said, don't ask me how I know this. :(
Mike D
Edited 3/5/2007 7:19 pm ET by Mike_D
Hi Mike,
I got a little behind last night and didn't get to try the kreg out. I did break it out a little while ago and did a couple of test runs and 1 simple 4-piece face frame. Everything looks good so far, tomorrow I will be putting it through the paces.
Pictures at 11........
Lee
Using the pocket holes to assemble face frames seems to be popular, but how about attaching the face frame to the cabinet? Pocket holes, biscuits, other?
dankopp , Glue and clamps works well , trust me !
dusty
Yep........ Glue and clamps
Paul
Dusty,
Dankopp beat me to my next question. I've spent not very much time today working on the face frames and I'm almost finished assembling the 20 or so of them.
I'ts going so well, I was going to post the same question dankopp did. 1/2" ply seems a little thin to be cutting a pocket hole in, but the kreg manual says it can be done.
So, I'm assuming you guys are using plywood, are you just gluing the ply to the back of the face frame and clamping?
I am presently cutting a dado on the back of the 2 face frame stiles, then I glue and toenail (on the outside of the cabinet) the face frame with an 18 gauge brad. This eliminates the need for the clamps/drying time.
Any thoughts on this method?
Lee
Hi Lee ,
There is little difference the cost of 1/2" say Maple or Birch plywood compared to 3/4",there is a world of difference in strength .I do not use 1/2" plywood for box parts .
Yes , we glue the back of the face frame to the front edge of the plywood .
The dado toe nail method you describe is a lot like a modular method , so it really depends on what type of product you want to end up with. Imo some faces need clamping here and there to make them flat , even an hour in the clamps is usually a good investment in time and you could save the expense of the nails too .
Also it would seem by using the dado your box parts may vary in depth , adding to easy mistakes to make .
dusty
Hi Dusty,
Funny you mention the modular method, that's where I picked up on the idea originally. However since I started building cabinets (almost a year ago - can't believe I made it this long!) I have walked into every new construction house I could and checked the cabinets. I have never seen anyone use 3/4" for the boxes (modular or custom). My plan originally was to use 3/4", but once I saw what the bigger custom shops in my area were using, I tried to keep things close to the same.
Here, 3/4" maple is about $20 more a sheet. I use birch most of the time, so it's not quite that big of a difference. Maybe $12-$15 more. I also talked to quite a few granite installers, and they have said 1/2" is the norm. I would be concerned that the granite weight would be too much for 1/2", but it's doing the trick.
As far as the depth variances, I haven't noticed any problems. I go through great pains to cut all of the like size pieces before I change fence settings on the saw, and to cut all of my dados at the same time. I think this has helped cut down on the errors. Maybe I'm just getting lucky? I clamp the face frames while I'm nailing, so everything is drawn up nice and tight as well.
Now, what type of product do I want to end up with? I can say that I feel like I spend more time than most (of my competition) assembling the cabinets, making sure they are as perfect as possible. I have seen some other cabinets that had the face frames glued on, but it looks like those guys nailed the face frame on with pneumatic nails instead of clamping. Ouch! Looks horrible. I felt like the glue/toenail method would be stronger than just gluing the edge of the plywood to solid wood. I have concerns that they might pop off. Maybe these concerns are unfounded, problem is when I started I knew how to build furniture, but never built a kitchen cabinet in my life. And I didn't really have any one to learn from, so it's all self taught, good or bad. Ha ha! I can say with great pride that I have seen work from just about every custom shop that is close to this area, and my finish is second to none. Everybody says how nice my finish looks. Please don't think I'm conceited, I see flaws that no one else sees, and I see room for improvement. But I can see the other guys are just cranking out cabinets. I want people to go " Man, those a really nice cabinets". Sounds corny I guess.
My goal is to do really high end custom stuff. Extremely fancy. Problem is, not much of a market around here for that. Well, there probably is, I just haven't stumbled on it yet. The other problem is, I don't really know how to do really high end custom stuff because there is no one around here doing that to learn from.
Anyhow, I'm sure this will all bore you to death. I guess I've had a bit too much caffeine in me tonight.
Lee
Hey Lee ,
Imagine ,,, if you are the only one in your area using 3/4" material to build your boxes out of ,, man ! they will be knocking your door down to get a cabinet that not only is finished great but also has more structural integrity than any local comparison .
Oddly enough in my 30 plus year career I have never seen a "custom cabinet job " made only with 1/2" plywood . Modular yes 3/8" - 5/8" is standard .
You must have to apply a thin finished end panel ? With 3/4" the end is the finished end fewer parts and seams and less time actually .
It's too bad since we work slow we can't charge more , but somehow clients just don't seem to agree with that line of thinking .
Set yourself and your work apart from the competition by doing exactly what you are doing , good clean precise work and maintain a pure dedication to detail.
Referrals and word of mouth take a lot of time to start paying off but this will ultimately keep you in business , be patient . Those high end jobs are out there , perhaps not a lot of them but they do exist . Try and contact a few architects and show them your portfolio , any galleries in the area offer to build them a display case in exchange for referrals do the same at the finest jewlery store in your area .
Otherwise , be on time if you make a mistake eat it and learn from it don't be afraid to challenge yourself.
regards dusty
Dusty,
Great advice. I can't thank you enough for all the help. I will look into the 3/4" ply on my custom homeowner jobs. I'm going to keep using the 1/2" for my contractor clients, as it is hard to charge them any more, even for a better cabinet. All they are concerned about is the bottom line. And I agree about the mistakes. I have had to eat a few small ones, and did so with a smile on my face.
Take care Dusty,
Lee
Thanks to everyone who chimed in on this thread. All of the advice was first rate, as usual. I put 18 face frames together in a few short hours yesterday. The pocket holes are definitely the way to go.
I hope to be as helpful to some of you as you were to me this time.
Thanks again,
Lee
Hi mapleman,
Pocket screws for faceframes are great. If you are only doing an occasional project the Kreg jig is fine. It is important to use the clamp provided to hold and register the jointing pieces because the Kreg uses a rather steep angle that can cause shifting if not held tightly. If you are needing to do more production you might want to consider the Porter Cable pocket hole machine. It works much faster and uses a much flatter angle that almost eliminates shifting so assembly can be done on a flat surface with no clamps.
Paul
Has anyone here used pocket hole joints specifically for face frames, and why do you like or dislike them?
Lots. I use them to assemble the FF and to attach it to the carcase,
Do you think they are stronger/weaker than biscuits?
Is a steel augered tenon stronger than a wood one? Of course. Much stronger, and the screw pulls the joint tight (which a biscuit won't do).
Do you use any glue on the joint? It would seem pointless, since the mating pieces are end grain to long grain. But I will let the experts decide.
I do sometimes, even though it is an end grain joint. It isn't so much strength you get as it is a little sealent (if making a painted cabinet, the glue fills the crack that the paint would highlight). I also tend to glue the FF rails and stiles.
When assembling face frames I use the bench clamp with the 12"x12"steel plate. I find it does a better job than the vice grip type clamps. With enough tension I have no problems with slippage. I add glue, but it's mostly for my piece of mind.
I like pocket screws a lot. Great for face frames and many other uses. I don't use glue, neither do most of the cabinet shops in my area, no problems with strength. If you try it an like it, take a look at the machines made by Castle. Built like tanks and far faster than anything else I've seen. The Porter Cable machine is made by Castle but their industrial machines blow it out of the water for about $2000. Pays for itself pretty fast and lasts forever. A pneumatic face frame table is the way to go if you do very many. Use pocket hole screws for the best results.
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Samuel P. Huntington
Don,
Thanks for the tip about castle. I will definitely check them out. I'm planning to start out with the K3master jig, but if all goes well I will be looking into one of those automated production machines in the next few months. I see the porter cable machine and the kreg table top machine are both competitively priced at about $800. The next step up from there with kreg is $2600 for a single bit floor model, and then $3600 for the double drill model. If the castle is about $2000, I think I will hold out for something like that rather than spend $800 and upgrade later (or sooner).
Have you used one of those pneumatic face frame tables? The only one I have seen up close was the kreg in a woodcraft store. I'm sure there are others out there also. I sure hate to give up 24 + or - square feet of shop space, though. I guess it boils down to how much time I can save.
Thanks for the help,
Lee
Lee ,
If you have a drill press I can show you a jig I use home made with pneumatic hold down and utilizes a Rittter type step drill bit with fish tail pilot .
I paid a welder to make the body and with the air toggle and holdown ram total cost depending of the metal work should only run 2 - 3 hundred including the bit . I've been using mine for way over 20 years .
I do use glue , sometimes I don't use nails but I always use glue . i used to dowel my faces , the screws are faster , stronger and more accurate .
I'll post a pic of the jig tomorrow if you want
dusty
Hi Dusty,
Yes, a pic would be most appreciated.
After doing some checking into the castle as Don suggested, it seems their machines cut the slot at 6 degrees, as opposed to kreg's jig cutting the slots at 14 degrees. Some feedback on woodweb has been that the steeper angle sometimes causes the pieces to creep a little. Anybody have any experiences with this, or is it just a few disgruntled users? I was planning to have some sort of assembly jig to hold the parts square while driving the screws, and using the hold down clamp as Mike suggested. I'm thinking this won't be an issue.
Lee
Lee ,
I believe mine is an 11° angle . Imo creeping is more due to the cut on the end of the parts and the sides of the ajoining parts not being square . I use a deep throat version of the clamp Mike showed , available at most welding supply shops .
The layout tables are nice but ,, unless you have the space to dedicate to them besides the expense you can live without them . No jig for keeping parts square is needed as long as you use the clamping method.
I will post a pic this a.m.
dusty
Lee ,
Here are a few photos of my pocket hole jig .
Most of my shop tables and assembly benches have about a 3" overhang , I clamp the FF stock face down in the overhang .
hope this gives you some ideas
dusty
Dusty,
Can't thank you enough for the photos. That's a gem of an idea.
A few questions:
Where did you find that extreeeeeemly long pocket hole drill bit? That's the heart of the jig, to have a bit that long to provide enough clearance between the workpiece and the drill press.
I just bought a pneumatic clamp almost exactly like the one you have pictured off of ebay. It has the 3 way toggle like yours. I was trying to figure what the middle hole was for. Looking at your jig I am assuming that when you release the clamp, the air escapes through that middle hole, and you have a hose set up to blow the chips away? Very clever. I will definitely be making my own version of that jig soon.
Thanks again Dusty,
Lee
Lee , Ask for a Ritter type face frame / pocket hole bit , the pilot bits are also sold separately every now and then one will break , they are called fish tail bits and let me tell you what ,,, keep your fingers away from that bad boy .The end of the long bit has carbide cutters .
Yes the extra hole is an exhaust port and helps to blow the chips away .
In no way am I suggesting that this is equal to or better than any manufactured tool that is sold , all I can say is I have used this professionally for over 20 years with great results . The Castle machine actually sort of routs the slot as opposed to drilling it . The Ritter drill tub looks similar to the Castle but uses the drill bit I use in my jig . Those type units are maybe $ 1,500 - $2,000 new and both do a super job .
let me know if I can be of further assistance , it is my pleasure .
dusty
Dusty,
Thanks for all the help. I will look for that Ritter bit. I haven't priced the Ritter pocket hole machine, but I did look up the Castle last night and they seem to start at about $2700 for the floor model, about the same as for the kreg floor model.
I bought the kreg K3 tonight, as I have a job in progress just about ready for the face frames. I figured I will get my feet wet and decide if it works out for me before I sink the "big bucks". However, I don't know if I could justify $2500 plus for that one machine. I will build a jig similar to yours or possibly upgrade to one of the $800 bench top machines first. Even if I dedicated a drill press to pocket hole boring, I would still come out way ahead between the cost of a drill press and the construction of your jig. Which leaves a little cash for that 15-20 inch planer, 12 inch jointer, and a vast array of other machines that would make my life easier and the work go faster.
Lee
Lee,
I faced the same problem and came to the same conclusion. $2700 is a lot to pay for a machine that you do not use everyday. If I owned a cabinet shop I would definitely get the Castle machine because it is totally different approach than the Kreg. The Castle uses two routers to make the pocket and drill the hole. You use a foot switch and one router swings up and routs the pocket and then the next routs the drill hole. It works almost as fast as you can step on the switch.
A buddy of mine has one and if I have a lot of face frames to do he lets me use it, but I hate to impose. He is a master craftsman and he uses that thing all the time . He said he finds new uses for it everyday and says he doesn't m-t joints much anymore. Too much time for a cabinet shop.
If you looked at the strength tests in wood magazine a couple issues ago about joinery, the author said the pocket hole system is only a little stronger than biscuits, no where near as strong as a m-t joint. M-t joints very in strength according to tenon size. My buddy says he has never had a failure in face frame application. I was in Indiana a couple of weeks ago and the Amish are using the Castle machine on every piece of furniture somewhere on the piece. Go figure.
Terry
Hi Terry,
Thanks for the info. I think if I upgrade to a floor model, it would definitely be the castle. For the next couple of jobs I will use the kreg K3, but at some point I will have to step up to at least the $800 kreg or porter cable tabletop version. Or maybe just bite the bullet and get the castle? A little nervous about a purchase that large, but I would bet that in a pinch, if it had to be sold, one could recoup most of the money invested in a machine like that. I can't find a used one listed on the net anywhere.
Lee
I have the porter cable table machine, if I had to sum it up in three words I would say,
FAST FAST FAST.
I really like it alot & it is very portable. One nice thing over the other production machines is that it does not need a compressor for hold downs or motors. This is also a factor in its portalbity . I'm not a cabinet maker that uses it every day either so it gets put away when not in use. So when I do need it I only have to pull out one tool and not have to fire up the compressor & all.
Paul
Yes I would like to see Olddusty's jig
Dave
Dave,
Click here:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=34772.23
Lee
Lee, I pocket holes are great! Use the fine thread for hardwood and the course thread for others.
oak will split on you when joining on the end with two screws.
My 2 cents, Lou
I really like the Kreg system and use it for face frames and building jigs. I found that by adjusting the drill bit so that it just poked through the piece slippage problems disapeared. When you adjust the stop collar using the supplied guide it doesnt drill all the way through and the self drilling screw tries to put some of this waste between the two pieces being joined. I 've also installed the bench clamp and found this also helps hold the pieces together. Hope that helps.
I know I'll just be echoing many others, but I love pocket screws. I can assemble frames/face frames in record time and get on with other work. I also agree that they are muck stronger than bisquits, both initially and long-term. As far as glue goes, well, after a chunk of a bowl popped off the lathe and nearly broke my nose back in '91, I've gone by the belief that there's no such thing as too much glew! There is, of course, but you know what I mean! I'm currently working on a pretty large cabinetry project for which I'm using pocket holes left-and-right. It's a little hard to describe in words, but instead of a face frame attached to a carcass, the frame work is being done first (w/pocket screws!), with side panels being inserted into rabits. It doesn't make much sense in writing, but I'll have some photos to post in a few weeks, when everything's done.
Tim Bowers
Bowers Custom Furniture
Atlanta, GA
I posted these over a year ago, I think. A lot less money than a commercial jig and very flexible. I have some shims of various thicknesses to use with stock of different thickness.
pins
Sorry, I posted two of the same photo, here are the proper ones.pins
scope out some of the kreg DVD's.
The 6$CDN I paid for one of them showed me methodologies that allowed me to recoup the cost of the DVD , the appliance, and the screws on one simple job.
Tat despite the fact that i had been vaguely aware of pocket screws and had some simple gizmos for implementation for 4 or 5 years.
the DVD was the catalyst.
Eric in Cowtown
I agree - their short little DVD (or VCR tape) is the berries. Lots of info, short and sweet.
Mike D
I use the kreg jig on almost every piece of furniture I build. Not only are they strong joints, but you're not limited to square box shapes. Here is a sample of a tv lift cabinet I built .
Since I bought a Lamello Top 20, my opinion about using biscuits has improved greatly however, I don't rely on biscuits for strength. That being said, in a face frame joint where you're joining end grain which is as porous as the ends a bunch of straws to long grain, a biscuit is equivalent to a thin small spline and given the stress that a face frame will take especially if you hang doors off the stiles it wouldn't be my choice of joinery.
Even without glue, I think you'll be surprised at just how strong pocket screws are provided that you use the appropriate screws. One thing I have learned that has helped with alignment of parts when screwing them together is after you put the rail and stile parts together and are getting ready to drive the screw in, press down on the seam between the two parts on a dead flat surface with your thumb and push the tip of the screw through the pocket hole and into the stile to get things started. When I screwed in the pocket screws without doing this, sometimes I got misaligned surfaces but since I started doing this I get nice flat face frames that are very strong. Lately, I've been skipping using glue as well. I find they're sufficiently strong and I don't get the squeeze out.
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