Replies

1. 
   EdHarrow | May 25, 2007 03:39pm | #1

   Seems a wee bit on the small side ;-)

1. 
   zolton | May 30, 2007 08:30pm | #12

   Ed,

   That was funny! Did you ever see the movie "This is Spinal Tap?" If you did, you'll know how much I appreciated your comment...

   Zolton

    

1. 
   EdHarrow | May 31, 2007 05:51am | #14

   Glad somebody thought it was funny!

1. 
   RichardZ | Jun 01, 2007 05:36pm | #15

   I suggest Barry's family find his meds real fast!

   I just know Alexander Graham Bellinksi, the first telephone pole would agree.

   R

2. 
   highfigh | May 25, 2007 03:44pm | #2

   Without knowing where you are, it'll be hard to make any recommendations. Putting a concrete floor with vapor barrier and then a wooden floor over that will be a lot more durable, clean, dry, consistently level and flat, less likely to rot, etc.

   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
3. 
   Pippins | May 25, 2007 04:10pm | #3

   MFN, try posting over at Breaktime too.

   There are probably a dozen ways to tackle this project. The Breaktime guys will have a bunch of inputs for you.

   Are you sure the poles are just sitting on top of the concrete?

   If I was faced with this, I would Install a vapor barrier over the gravel and pour a concrete footer inside of the poles to carry the wood floor framing. Also, a footer down the middle of the span would be needed.

   Frame up using pressure treated 2X and then cover the framing with subfloor and then the flooring.

   Steve

4. 
   Hastings | May 25, 2007 05:23pm | #4

   MFN:

   Are you confusing your barn with your outside privy? As Ed points out, if your measurements are even approximately correct, you won't have much room for any tools; unless you are going to work exclusively on vertical surfaces with hand tools stored on a belt or apron.

   :-)

   Seriously, a friend of mine in Michigan did the exact same thing, though his barn was much bigger. The main thing he added were windows, but he did say that finding pin-hole leaks in the roof was a major issue. He added concrete with vapor barrier; I don't think he went any further.

   Good luck with your conversion.

   Hastings

5. 
   tinkerer2 | May 27, 2007 10:00am | #5

   I think you must mean 20 feet by 30 feet rather than 20 inches by 30 inches.  That is why people think it is small.

6. 
   Joe Sullivan | May 27, 2007 05:59pm | #6

   Here are a few thoughts based years of fooling with barns and sheds, including converting a pole barn to a non-pole barn by jacking the thing up removing the poles pouring a foundation, and building up from the new sills:

   1. Check the drainage and be sure water will flow away from the building on all sides.
   2. Be sure the poles are really sound and will continue to be for a while,  Pole barns are temporary by nature and the poles will rot out sooner or later.  However, if the drainage is good and if the poles are treated or a resistant species like cedar, you might be ok for years to come.  Just sitting on concrete won't keep them from rotting, as moisture travels through concrete with ease.
   3. Depending on how much you want to invest, you could pour concrete gradebeams to support floor joists, or you could just d way I'd probably do in your shoes -- tie a framework of treated lumber joists into the poles and just floor over.
   4. Remember that the latest treated lumber corrodes fasteners away within a couple of years, and will even attack the coated fasteners if the coating is broken -- so the best idea is to use stainless fasteners despite the higher cost
   5. Allow for good under-floor ventilation, and unless you use plywood, expansion room at the edges is critical -- without it your floor will buckle in humid weather.
   6. You can hang a curtain wall off of the front poles. by running 2x6 at top and bottom and making the equivalent of a stud wall in between -- or you could just run a couple of runs of 2x4 between bottomm and top.  depends on your climate qnd the level of finish you want.
   7. Sheath with exterior plywood, and cover that with Tyvek or roofing felt, and then put your exterior sheathing over that.
   8. I have found that skylights are an inexpensive way to bring tremendous free light to the workplace, and make it feel open. They come glazed i enegry efficient glass, so you won't cook yourself it you use them.

    

1. 
   BarryO | May 28, 2007 02:12am | #7

   Pole barns are temporary by nature and the poles will rot out sooner or later. 

   I would dispute that.  I'm sure the 0.6 PCF CCA-treated poles holding up my barn and shop will last longer than I do.  The USFS says so, too; e.g., here's another permanent foundation system using PT wood:

   http://www.pdhengineer.com/Course%20Files/Completed%20Course%20PDF%20Files/Civil/PermanentWoodFoundations-DesignandConstructionGuide.pdf

   I have found that skylights are an inexpensive way to bring tremendous free light to the workplace, and make it feel open.

   Gee I wouldn't go along with that, either.  No matter what the glazing, I find they heat up the space in the summer.  In the winter, when you really want the light and heat, they are often covered with snow.

   If you get skylights anyway, put them on the north side only, and make them openable.

   My shop's a pole building. 

   As for the OP'er, you may find this thread on another site, about a guy who's building a pole building shop, of some interest: http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2925574&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1

1. 
   Joe Sullivan | May 28, 2007 03:32am | #8

   Dispute what you please.

   I have spent a lifetime working on farm pole barns on a good many farms and have seen more than a fair amount of rot.  I think the usual estimate is 25 years of life -- but the OP didn't say how old his are, and he didn't even say whether they were treated.  Besides, I merely suggested he check to be sure they aren't rotting.  You wouldn't dispute that, would you?

   I have skylights in both home and tack room (not in my shop, but I would if I could)here in Texas, where the summer weather is warm.  They are double glazed, coated glass.  I have no problems at all.

   That is my experience.  That is what I told the OP.

   Joe

1. 
   BarryO | May 29, 2007 08:34pm | #11

   I merely suggested he check to be sure they aren't rotting. 

   Au contraire, you said much more than that.  It was your assertion that "Pole barns are temporary by nature and the poles will rot out sooner or later" that I disputed.

   'nuthin' wrong with checking the poles, and I didn't say there was

   Yea, I've seen my share of fallen-down farmer-built barns as well.  'bulldozed two on my place in the past few years.  Who knows what the poles were; e.g., some the ol' farmer soaked in a barrel of penta for a couple of days.  But it's a bit of a stretch from that, to saying one shouldn't bother with a pole building because it will only last as long as a temporary structure.

1. 
   joinerswork | May 31, 2007 01:56am | #13

   Barry,

   I am in total agreement with you.  I think that it is unfair to single out Pole barns as temporary in nature, any more than German, Croat or Czech barns would be.  Quality workmanship is quality workmanship.

   Regards,

   Ray

7. 
   JeffHeath | May 29, 2007 04:17am | #9

   My shop is a pole barn.  36' X 45'.  I have a 6" concrete floor.  One of these days, the bench area will be a hardwood floor on sleepers, but many of my power tools are industrial, and require a forklift to move around.  I wouldn't want to drive my 9000 lb. bobcat carrying the 2500 lb. jointer over a wood floor, if you know what I mean. 

   I have R19 6" thick sidewalls, with R40 in the ceiling.  Plenty of windows and good lighting.  I spend all day out there (and quite a few evenings) and am quite comfortable with it.  I heat it with a radiant tube heater, but if I had it to do over, I would have put tube heating in the concrete.

   Hope this helps.

   Jeff

   
1. 
   Joe Sullivan | May 29, 2007 08:37am | #10

   Ah, well, right. With tools like that, a wood floor becomes problematic. However, I'll tell you what I'd like to try some day if I get all the other projects done and have time on my hands. I'd like to come in over my concrete shop floor with endgrain wood blocks like the ones in the old time plants and machine shops.Jeff, I'll bet even your machinery would do well on that kind of floor.Joe

8. 
   ClarkCustoms | Jun 01, 2007 10:49pm | #16

   OK,So some folks are confused at the "20 x 30" measurements, Who are we to judge if you want Ken and Barbie to have a nice comfortable woodworking shop to go along with her Barbie corvette,house,and all her and Kens other paraphernalia. Ha Ha Ha just joking, Of course anyone with any common sense at all knows the "20x30" measurements was a typo, Gees I hope that's the case? I'd hope that the measurements were supposed to be '20x30' But then again what is this unfamiliar fanominon called "common sense"?? Personally I think folks today are so busy striving to jump on other peoples shortcomings instead of realizing that we are all just human and slip up every once in a while,no matter how perfect we think we are. But hey this is just one guys opinion,And you do know what they say about opinions??? They say that my opinions always right and that I just don't care what others opinions stand for Ha Ha Ha Ha I'M JOKING,

    Sincerely,

   Jim at Clark Customs 

    

9. 
   el viejo | Jun 04, 2007 04:55am | #17

   Most responders seem to concentrate on the "pole" in pole barn.  I believe the definition of a pole barn is that there is no conventional foundation.  In some jurisdictions this means significantly lower taxes.  "Pole" barns can be built on peirs and can last a long,long time.

   I had a shop in a barn on a small farm for 15 years.  The concrete floor was hard on the feet, but otherwise ok.  I had 3 problems with it : (1) it was hot in the summer and cold (damned cold) in the winter.  I had plenty of wood for the stove, but it took about an hour after lighting the stove to reach bearable temps.  My drill press--farthest from the stove--would not start (cold starting windings?) until I warmed it up with a hair dryer! (2)  on more than one occasion someone left the door unlocked and curious animals (sheep, horses) came in and couldn't get back out. Concrete floors covered with fresh manure are not fun.  Birds occasionaly nested over work in progress (3) you must be continuously aware that tools subjected to humidity and extremes of temperature can rust if not constantly monitored and Waxed or sprayed with preventitive.

   But all in all I loved it.  Lots of fresh air, easy access, disposal of sawdust, etc. etc.  Also my barn was beside a narrow county road and I got interesting visitors. Not so many it was a bother, but enough to be welcome breaks in the workday.