Want to put a semi-gloss wipe-on poly finish on something. The Watco wipe-on comes in gloss and satin (at least in our store here). I can think of two methods, and am looking for votes as to which would work best (or not at all).
- Mix the two together, or. . .
- Make the first coat (or two) with satin, and final coat with gloss
Please don’t try to take me on an anti-Watco trip here. That’s what I have to work with for this project. Thanks!!
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Replies
Try mixing some and test it on some scrap. It may be what you are looking for.
Generally, starting with a deglossed then going to a clear will virtually eliminate the degloss appearence. Again, test it first if it's an important project.
Forest girl -
Merry Christmas!
I always use high gloss then 0000 steel wool to get the appearance I want. Buffing afterwards is required. I have always favored that method over semi-gloss or satin poly. It is lotsa work, though.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy
PlaneWood
Jamie, go to the paint store and ask them for flattener (sp). Anyway, this is a paint additive that will dull or flatten paint. Tell them what you are trying to accomplish and then mix some up in test batches and play with it until you get the desired effect. Its really pretty simply isnt it.. Merry Christmas......
I've been using the local walnut a bit lately along with quartersawn DF and verticle grain DF plywood (for the house's 10 kazillion cabinets). I use a minwax wipe on poly almost exclusively now. Lot's of coats, sanding between. I use watco danish oil before the poly to get the color right. Walnut is too light with just the poly. No preference on the poly brand - Orchard supply has minwax, I use it.
I use satin and bring the luster down at the end with 0000 steel wool, then a rub out with polishing compound (for cars). It gives a good semi-gloss rubbed oil looking finish. I wax at the end, but wax is very temporary!
Jamie, i would opt for mxing. I've mixed lots of polys, lacquers, and stains and as long as i didn't mix water and oil, it worked fine, and it's really easy if you are just mixing within the same finish in different sheens. Or buff out the gloss.
I have no idea how your second idea could even work...?
Best to apply gloss all the way through the job, FG, until the last coat (or two.) Gloss is just a tiny bit tougher than any 'matted' finish but you'd need a laboratory to test the film strength difference, and the difference is small, as I understand it.
Save the sheen determination until that last coat (or two.) If satin is too dull, add some of it to the gloss. Stir up the satin to get all the dulling silica well stirred in, and add a bit to your gloss, which has no silica. I find adding about 10% of satin to a gloss varnish works well. It knocks off the high sheen, but leaves it at about 90%+ sheen. Glossy, but not too glossy.
Don't mix brands or types of varnish. Use Minwax wipe on with Minwax wipe on, and you should be safe. Experiment with some scrap prior to commiting yourself to a specific routine or mixture. Slainte.
A satin coat over gloss will give you a satin finish and vice-versa -- mixing them should be fine.
Flattening agents --- If you use these be sure to stir the varnish frequently to keep the agent in suspension. Also note that uneven drying of the coat will give you uneven gloss levels.
IanDG
Ian and Sgian:
The problem with covering a coat of one sheen with a coat of a different sheen is sand-through, so the underlying coat shows up more readily as a different sheen even when rubbed with the same steel wool.
Splintie, you only get 'witness' marks if you sand through the last coat. Either don't sand between coats, and apply 'wet on wet' or apply a thicker coat. It doesn't matter a darn how you get the required thickness of coat on, you just need to get it on. It can be 20 coats of wiped on stuff, or two coats of brushed on (or sprayed on.) Final film thickness is final film thickness, and that's the end of it.
If you're rubbing out lightly with steel wool between coats and getting witness marks, then the problem you have is either rubbing too hard, or putting on too thin a coat, or both. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.
Sgian:
It doesn't matter a darn how you get the required thickness of coat on... You mean...i can finally raise my head again after all the gallons of epoxy i poured on those burl clocks and tables????
Sand-through or witness marks are only an accelerated version of normal wear patterns. It just isn't possible to get as thick of finish on an edge, a carved detail, or a vertical surface as it is on a flat surface, yet many of those areas will be the first to be worn.
As to thickness of finish layers, it makes a great deal of difference with some exotics i use. A thick layer of finish on paduak will yield a nice spreading orange stain--generally over the nearest lighter-colored wood--as it lifts the dye and spreads it around. This is true for oils, lacquers, and at least one poly (can't remember the brand i used for that project). Some woods needs a light first coat to set the color just as though stain had been added.
Ian:
After paying you to lay a custom hardwood floor, your customers quibble about the price difference between satin and gloss sheen in their poly? what percentage of the job is that difference? It must be different in the western US, as the cost is negligible in my experience. Penny-wise and pound foolish, at any rate. I would rather not have my floor telling me it needs another coat of the godawfulexpensivestuff by shiny trails from door to door.
Don't make me ask Martha....
No big deal Splintie. Just gash on a light coat of a dewaxed blonde shellac to seal the colour in to stop it spreading from padauk to maple. Are you using a brush or a rag in preference to a spray gun?
Zinnser make stuff called SealCoat, and you can thin it and spray it on if you want, and it dries quickly. You can do the same with the nitro-cellulose family of finishes--thin and get a coat on lightly. After you've created the seal and barrier, apply anything you like, using whatever method suits, and whatever polishes match the base coat. If it's oil based varnish, rag it on, brush it on, or spray it.
I like spraying. No dragging of previous layers with a brush or rag to muddy up the job. A thick'ish coat of sprayed varnish might take longer to dry than ragged on, but I put it on in one coat in one day, whereas ragged on takes several. In either case it only takes a week or so max. to thoroughly dry.
If you're not using a spray gun for your finishes in the craft line you're in, it might be time to check them out. Carved details, edges, etc., typically get a thinner film finish, because liquids don't really like bending around a corner, and they dry out thinner than they do on a flat surface. Wear at these points is known as aging and 'patina'. I wouldn't worry my erse too much about it, ha, ha. Slainte. Some stuff I've made.
I've done the spray thing from the get-go, only i stepped up from a Wagner airless to a regular gun after a couple years when i could finally afford all that air stuff. I suppose i'll eventually check out all the hype on the HVLP system, but the conversion gun i tried just didn't do it and i'm afraid to mess with near-perfection for the goods i'm selling at shows. And to get a finish that supplies all my requirements, i have to mix lacquer brands. Some were worse than others for the spreading-blood (padauk) syndrome, too.
I do a light coat to set the color, and of the same lacquer mixture i apply in thicker coats for layers 2 and 3. Even though i spray a lot of flat stuff, i have to do reasonable coats and rub out between to get a smooth finish. I had the impression you were advocating one thick coat would give me the same appearance as several thin/medium ones...perhaps i was mistaken, but i wouldn't want a newcomer to spray a thick finish and wonder why it orange-peeled and/or wrinkled.
Patina, eh? I always thought that shiny stuff on my wear spots was from the hide trying to keep up with middle-aged spread.
Question for anyone: I just opened a gallon can of Valspar satin lacquer, always trying something new, and it didn't have the characteristic white silica crud in it to mix up, but it still sprays flat. Wassup widdat?
Well now, Splintie, you've got me flummoxed. First off you're worried about sand through or witness marks which is a phenomenom(sp?, it's late and I've had a beer or three, ha, ha) experienced when you use layer upon layer film finishes, e.g., oil type varnishes, and water based varnishes.
Now you're talking about lacquers. Do you mean the nitro-cellulose family of lacquers which chemically bond coat upon coat to form a contiguous whole? This type of finish, as with shellacs, don't suffer from sand through or witness marks.
Oil type varnishes can be applied layer upon layer up to any total thickness desired, as long as you let the previous coat dry properly. There is a slight danger of applying too much in one go where the top surface skins off trapping solvents below so preventing the film forming a hard finish for (even) months, but in practice, if you spray this thick a layer, the varnish will exhibit other faults, such as curtaining, fat edges, etc., which will prevent the half conscientious worker from over applying the stuff in one go.
Nitro-cellulose lacquer can be applied layer upon layer to any thickness and rubbed out, or rubbed down. Its cousin, pre-catalysed lacquer, cannot. A 5 mil. dry film thickness is the maximum recommended by many polish makers, e.g., ML Campbell, to prevent the occurence of the chinese writing or cracking fault.
I am completely mystified as to why you find it necessary to mix lacquer finishes to get the results you're after. To seal the colour preventing bleeding, mix about 15%-- 20% gloss lacquer with lacquer thinner and spray on a light coat. Rub down very lightly, and follow up with two coats of full strength pre-cat lacquer, rubbing down lightly between coats and you should be done-- three coats certainly should be the maximum.
Alternatively, spray a similarly thinned out shellac such as the Zinnser SealCoat, plus the two coats of pre-cat. Both these strategies should keep you below the 5 mil. dried film coat safety margin. I know nothing at all specific regarding the Valspar family of finishes. I've never used them.
That's your definition of patina, eh? It's just known as getting old and fat where I'm from. Getting there myself, but I'm still under 12-1/2 stone, ~175 lbs., and I don't plan to grow any more, thanks, ha, ha. I'm about a stone and a half over my playing weight from fifteen years back, but, then, I was always too light for the back row position I played, 7, 8 on the rugby pitch. I'd just like to hang on to the weight and be 20 years younger. Now I've started playing again, I've got the weight, but not the speed or stamina. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.
Yes, one thing led to another and we skated quite a ways from FG's original Q about wipe-on's, didn't we?
We were talking about building up finishes and you said it didn't matter how they got thick or what sheens were applied, so i addressed that by taking off in two different directions: lacquer application and sand-through. One of the ADD advantages is being able to multi-task! <G>
Mixing finishes: I mix lacquers bec i'm a stickler for a finish that provides a tactile as well as visual experience. I've seen a lot of furniture in galleries that exceeds my ability to produce, but which feels like gravel under my fingertips.
The pre-cat lacquers i've tried have a draggy feel when stroked, even after being rubbed out between the three [sprayed] coats i normally apply. I also find them difficult to rub out, that scratches stand to attention instead of blending into one another.
Others lacquers are a PITA to rub out unless allowed to dry for longer than i have time to wait. They ball up on the paper, even the stearate-coated stuff, or melt too readily under agressive Scotch-brite pad rubbing. I don't like the plastic look and feel of even the satin sheens, and the glosses are worse. They are good at standing up to water, however.
Deft Clear Wood Finish (lacquer) rubs out like a dream and quickly, but has a greasey/waxy feel. It isn't at all moisture-resistant--not enough to weather a freak hailstorm at an outdoor show, my personal benchmark. BUT--when i mix Deft with one of the plasticky lacquers, i get a terrific blend of the best qualities of both types: water-resistance, fast recoat and cure times, and Deft's greasiness translates into a silky feel.
So far, i've tried a 1:3 or 1:4 mix with lacquers from WKI (out of Portland), Hyplex from Columbia Paints, Parkes, and recently, the Valspar. There were some others, but i've forgotten the names. I've never had the mixture not spray properly, but some rub out and look nicer than others. I've been doing it like this for about 18 years, but i suppose if someone were in a situation where a warranty were involved, it might not be advisable.
As to shellac, i wouldn't chance anything that incompatible with moisture with my stuff at the outdoor shows. I might be in a rainstorm in Seattle one weekend and baking in Boise the next. Also, i'm lazy: i leave the lacquer in the gun year-round--no muss, no fuss. I buy a new gun once a year or so.
Old and fat...we get a fair bit of running in around here, too, mostly the bouncy lass chasing the old man around the woodpile. There's always some chocolate involved at some point, however, so i don't rely on the exercise for weight loss. Happy Christmas, Richard.
Jings, Splintie. All those products from all those different companies, and you mix some of them together too? I've never used any of those companies products, so I can't comment. It sounds like an awful lot of work to me, but if it works for you----? Mostly, of the nitrocellulose products, I stick with the ML Campbell range, and with varnishes, I use stuff made by their parent (I think) Pratt & Lambert.
If yo're using shellac as a base, it only gets affected by moisture if the liquid penetrates through the top coats of whatever film finish you're using-- and without shellac, the timber is only affected if the moisture gets through those same top coats.
I like your exercise regime. I might try that on the wife. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.
Paul was also championing the ML Campbell products in another thread, so i'll definitely try them out. I'll have to do some investigating, but now that i think of it, i've not run into the P&L name in these parts.
OK, i just looked up "Paint" in the phone book, and one guy out in a residential area is a P&L dealer...hmmm. None of the stores list that brand in their display ads, so i'll do some calling tomorrow. A good time of year to experiment...
For floors that's actually a benefit -- because satin is more expensive than gloss, usual practice is 2 coats gloss and a finish in satin. I used to tell clients "Re-coat when the floor starts to look shiny".BTW, if you're sanding so hard that you sand through the coat, what was the point in applying the coat in the first place? Hah!IanDG
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