Hello All, Am building a jewelry box with a book matched walnut top with tons of figure. Problem is most of it is end grain and it soaked up 2 coats of a tung oil blend so far (Minwax).
It has come out looking very flat and I’m thinking of a few coats of polyurethane on top. Is this ok over oil or will I run into problems?
Thanks!
Brian
Replies
Get polymerized tung oil if you want a gloss finish. Hand rubbed poly will be ok if you let the tung oil dry several days first.
That's the 'long' and 'short' of it. Pun intended!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
Thanks Planewood, Appreciate the info. By the way......
Happy Birthday !!!
Edited 11/23/2003 11:39:00 PM ET by BrianMcG
Thank you!
How did you know??
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
I checked your member profile when you replied last. You listed it. I was feeling creative.....:)
Brian - Minwax Tung Oil finish is a thinned varnish & oil blend (a.k.a., "Danish Oil"). It will develop a nice satin finish if you apply enough coats; the first few coats can soak into the wood and look like there's no finish at all. Once the wood is sealed by the danish oil, the finish will develop an even sheen over the entire surface. Allow each coat to cure, odor free, before applying the next coat; it may take longer than the recommneded 24 hours for the finish to dry.
You can use varnish (or polurethane; a more durable varnish) over the danish oil once it's dry. The varnish will dry faster and provide a more durable finish than the danish oil.
In the future, try a wiping varnish (see the link above) in place of the danish oil.
Paul
Hi Paul, Thanks again for your help. I didn't know that Minwax tung oil and Danish oil were synonymous.
Thanks for the link too. Very informative.
Brian
Brian,
Minwax "tung oil" and Danish Oil are not synonymous. They are similar products, but that's all. Both have an oil component (maybe boiled linseed, maybe tung, maybe both) - only the manufacturer knows and neither reveals the exact nature of his brew.
Both have some varnish. Again, only the respective manufacturer knows these facts. The type of varnish and the ratio of ingredients are proprietary.
The naming of these kinds of products in the finishing industry has no rules or even requirements. Almost anything called tung oil finish or danish finish or claiming to be a rub on finish, is some combination of boiled linseed and a varnish.
They all work about the same, with minor variations and degree of surface build-up/gloss.
VL
Thanks VL, A very confusing subject indeed! Brian
Brian,
I will throw you another curve. Polyurethane in my opinion ends up looking somewhat plastic and heavy. A jewelry box certainly doesn?t need the protection of polyurethane. Shellac has everything you?d want for a project like this, superior clarity, sufficient durability, and ease of application. A variation on this theme, is padding lacquer, which I have used recently and it fully replicates French polish, without the difficulty. Both of these will work quite well over an oil finish, in fact I consider oil an essential step, since it highlights the grain.
Rob Millard
Rob -
Normally, I agree. More of a utilitarian finish.
But, if you hand apply gloss poly, rub it in well, steel wool between coats, and power buff after last coat (5 - 6 coats), It can take on an appearance of having a warm depth. Easier to get the same appearance with shellac or lacquer. Just won't be as rugged a finish.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Easier to get the same appearance with shellac or lacquer. Just won't be as rugged a finish.
And then of course, there is NON-poly for a warm deep finish, easily applied with a wipe on technique.Gretchen
Hi Rob, Thanks for the info. I agree with you about polyuethane being rather heavy and plastic feeling and looking. I would like to keep it warm and hand rubbed looking if possible. I have never used shellac but thought it, too, was a thick plastic like coat. It will give a warm tone? I have read a bit about it. The amber shellac sounds like a possibility.
How is padding lacquer applied and can you recommend a brand?
Thanks again, Brian
Brian
I believe that shellac is the finest finish you can use. It has great depth and clarity, and is easily repaired. It is far more water resistant than some think, especially when mixed from flakes. Of course it has no alcohol resistance, and really isn’t suitable for table tops, that will receive any significant use. In fact I never use it for tops, I use the Behlen Rock Hard Varnish instead ( which is an extemely labor intensive alternative).
Shellac can be applied to resemble everything from an oil finish to French polish, so it also versatile. It is also a quick finish, in that you can apply many coats in one day and after only a few days curing time it is ready rubout.
I’ve only recently used padding lacquer, but I think it is a superior product. I made some Christmas gifts for my customers, and as an experiment I used padding lacquer to finish them. It builds a truly beautiful finish in one heck of a hurry, what more could you want. I think it is slightly more durable than shellac. I used the Behlen Qualasole. I will get the process I used written out and post it on this site.
For some reason when I type my replies on my new laptop, there are errors in the symbols, like the question marks being inserted where they shouldn't be. I think I've fixed that problem.
Rob Millard
Hi Rob, Another question if you don't mind. I am about to order a pound of the orange shellac flakes from Lee Valley ($9.95 Lb).
After reading a post from Boris Yeltsin I'm concerned that applying shellac with a brush may lead to problems (fast solvent evaporation resulting in build up in corners etc...) I don't have spray equipment, so brushing or wiping it on are my only choices I think.
Will I be Ok using a brush?
Brian
Brushing shellac is not a difficult process. I don't mess with measuring "cuts" but I mix my shellac very thin, like water. When using shellac this thin, it seems like it would take forever to build a finish, but since it dries so quickly, many coats can be applied in short order. I add Jeff Jewitt's shellac wet to my shellac, all this does is retard the set, and give you a chance to flow it out. Brushing shellac is not like varnish , you can't go back over a recently brushed area. Any areas that look poor are better left until the next coat. The real key to successfully brushing shellac is the brush. The best are those made for water colors. I use golden Taklon made by Grumbacher, using 1 inch and 1 ½ inch sizes. For moldings, I use a filbert, which is a brush with rounded corners. The proper technique is to flow the shellac off the brush and never over work it. Of course no matter how careful you are brushing the shellac, it will have to be rubbed out.
Rob Millard
Thanks Rob, I'm off to the art supply store for a brush or two.
Now about "rubbing out".......
Happy Tday!
Brian
Rubbing out is one of those things where you'll learn more in five minutes doing it, than you can in hours reading about it, but here is what I do.
With a good brush job, I can start with 400 grit paper. I sand to 600 grit using a small art gum eraser as a sanding block and mineral spirits as a lubricant. Using an eraser as a sanding block, may seem odd and slow, but it gives a good backing to the sand paper yet conforms to minor variations in the surface. After you achieve a uniformly dull surface with the sand paper, then switch to 4/0 steel wool, dipped in a mixture of mineral oil and mineral spirits. Here again I use a eraser to back up the steel wool. I also, dip the steel wool in a mixture of 4F pumice and rottenstone. This gives a higher sheen than using the steel wool alone.
Molding require great care to avoid rubbing through, so I use only the 600 grit and back the paper with my fingers. The steel wool will conform to the moldings and give an even sheen without too much trouble.
Carved areas can't be rubbed out, so I use a stiff shoe shine brush with oil and pumice sprinkled on it to bring the sheen down to match the flat areas.
The real challenge is knowing how much you can sand without cutting through the finish, and this is quickly ( although not painlessly) learned.
Rob Millard
Well once again, thanks Rob. I have printed all your posts and will tack them to my finishing supply cabinet door for reference.
I greatly appreciate your patience and your time in replying with such useful information.
Its folks like you that keep novices like me interested and forums like this going.
Take care, Brian
PS- Your sofa table is amazing.
Edited 11/29/2003 11:09:12 PM ET by BrianMcG
Brian,
Oil can create a warm glow with a nice sheen (adjustable to your preferences) if you sand it into the wood: this is particularly true when dealing with end grain.
I sand vigorously using silicon carbide abrasive. The elbow grease, abrasive and finishing oil create a slurry that packs the pores and burnishes the surface. I start with 220-grit, wait a day and proceed to 320, wait another day and finish with 400.
Two critical keys: (1) after applying the final coat, wipe off any bleedback about once an hour until fully cured; (2) wait at least 3 days after the final coat of oil and apply a wax containing carnauba - it'll buff to a very high sheen.
Good luck,
Paul
I was thinking about using oil to finish a couple of morris chairs and was wondering how durable the finish will be with the process you described. These chairs wont get heavy use. They are more for show than anything. I've asked this question before but still haven't decided what I'm going to do yet. The chairs are still out getting the cussions made for them so I still have time do decide.
tonyWe already have enough youth, how about a fountain of smarts.
I agree that shellac is probably the best finish, but.......
It is very dificult to apply with a brush, because the alcohol starts to evaporate within about 20 seconds. This is not a user friendly finish. It really should be sprayed, something which I can't do.
At least in my experience with the stuff, if I brush it on, I severly dilute it to about a 1 pound cut. Watch for buildup in the corners, edges etc.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Tony,
A sanded-in oil finish will work very well - unless you have a chair with wide flat arms and plan to set your cocktail on the arm (Maloof rockers are finished with oil). In that case, you'll probably want to sand in only one coat on the arms, followed by a durable film finish such as oil-based varnish. You can achieve a varnished finish with just about the same silky feel as a sanded-in oil finish if you wait until the varnish is well- cured and rub it out thoroughly.
Good luck with your project,Paul
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
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