I searched the forum but can’t find any posts on Poplar plywood. My local lumber yard carries it along with Birch and others. Salesman said it is nearly as good as Birch (same number of layers) but significantly cheaper. I am build cabinets and bench in my garage and would like more info on Poplar plywood.
Thanks,
bit
Edited 8/29/2003 2:58:35 PM ET by Bitman
Replies
Bit, first of all, I'm curious as to whether this "poplar" plywood is actually yellow poplar or possibly aspen. If it is being touted as a birch substitute based on similar appearance, it is probably actually aspen, since yellow poplar has a very different greenish pigmentation.
In either case though, neither aspen or yellow poplar are as dense as the hard birch species used in cabinet grade birch plywoods. They would tend to dent a little easier than birch...But structurally, I doubt if their would be any serious differences in the strength of any of these plywoods...since it is only the face veneers that normally distinguish them. With the exception of the imported Baltic birch plywoods, which tend to be pure birch and are manufactured with high ply counts, the core veneers in our domestic cabinet plywoods are typically made up of other less expensive species, anyway; often even aspen or yellow poplar.
If your project involves the making of rather utilitarian cupboards, etc...and doesn't place a high priority on the figure and color of authentic birch...I'd let your wallet coax you into the less expensive option.
I have some 4/4 ? birch in the shop I picked up a longggg time ago. Whenever I pick it up I am surprised at it's density and close grain. Reminds me of maple.
Originally I was going to make a set of wood clamps out of it.
Now where's that piece of wood I sat down????
I have some 4/4 ? birch in the shop I picked up a longggg time ago. Whenever I pick it up I am surprised at it's density and close grain. Reminds me of maple.
Yes, it does look very much like Maple. Yellow Birch in particular looks like Maple, albeit a bit more yellow. I am told that both Yellow and Baltic Birch are commonly used Maple substitutes.
At my job I'm most of the way thru finishing a bunch of solid and plywood Birch (mostly Baltic, but with some Yellow Birch too) fixtures for a visitors center in northern Alaska. It's all getting just a clear finish with no stain. It's a very tough, dense wood that looks more like the eastern Maples than does our much browner Western Maple, IMO. Very attractive looking stuff... Particularly the solid stock. The Birch lumber seems to take the finish better in that it builds faster on the solid stock.
Regards,
Kevin
>>"The Birch lumber seems to take the finish better in that it builds faster on the solid stock."<<
This is an especially insightful observation, Kevin. Yelow birch is a much denser species than is the Baltic birch used in these imported plywoods. The European species is much more like our softer paper birch (AKA canoe birch, or northern birch.) It will drink more of the finish top coat before it builds to a smooth surface, but the final look will be pretty much the same.
The problems come in when you mix these species in a piece that will be stained. The greater porosity of the softer birch has to be taken into consideration, either by giving it a pre-stain sealer coat, or by doctoring the harder birch in some way. I've gotten away with just leaving the solid stock, harder birch a little more coarsely sanded so that it traps more pigment, but on a few occasions I've had to come back and restain it with an adjusted (slightly darkened) touch-up stain...Mixing species can have its pitfalls.
Yelow birch is a much denser species than is the Baltic birch used in these imported plywoods. The European species is much more like our softer paper birch (AKA canoe birch, or northern birch.) It will drink more of the finish top coat before it builds to a smooth surface, but the final look will be pretty much the same.
I didn't know that about Yellow Birch. What's interesting is that even the solid Baltic Birch seems to finish out nicer than the ply. We're using solid stock of both species, but only the Baltic in the ply. Do you think perhaps it comes from a different region... perhaps somewhere colder? I've heard it referred to as "Russian" Birch. The visitor's center we're doing the work for is supposed to be done with native species as much as possible. Going into the project I had assumed that the Baltic (aka Russian) Birch grows within the region... perhaps on the Russian side of the pond?
Regards,
Kevin
I don't know, Kevin. Veneer logs are usually steamed or soaked to make them pliable and easier to peel, while the solid stock wouldn't be. That could affect the wood's porosity a little I suppose. There are some denser birches native to the Orient, but the European birch is very much like our paper birch.
The two most common species used for birch face veneers over here are yellow birch and sweet birch (Betula lenta.) The latter usually has a warmer more amber color, somewhat like hard maple. When cut to expose its "flame grain", deep in the heartwood and/or around branches, it's very pretty. Yellow birch has a more chalky grayish tone and a drier feel.
As for variation in density due to climate, I'm sure it matters a little...but most of the density differences in the birches are based on genetics. Paper birch has a very northerly range and is still substantially lighter than either yellow or sweet birch...or even the most southerly species; river birch. Wood density within the birch family (Betulaceae) spans a very wide range. Ironwood (Eastern hop hornbeam) is a birch as is western red alder...So, the densities within the family range from that of aspen or softer to that of the hickories. It's an interesting family, with far more variation than most woodworkers appreciate.
The two most common species used for birch face veneers over here are yellow birch and sweet birch (Betula lenta.) The latter usually has a warmer more amber color, somewhat like hard maple. When cut to expose its "flame grain", deep in the heartwood and/or around branches, it's very pretty. Yellow birch has a more chalky grayish tone and a drier feel.
Hmmm... I'd sure like to see side-by-side examples of Yellow Birch and Sweet Birch. The reason is that from your descriptions here, I'm wondering about the designation of the solid stock that we've been using (on the visitor's center) as Yellow Birch. The stuff we have looks very white, kinda like hard Maple, when it's just sanded. But, when finished with the catalyzed vinyl specified by the architect, it looks distinctly warm and yellowish, as opposed to the grayish tone you've described for the Yellow 'Birch here. Whatever it is that we're using, it matches a sample that we have from the flooring contractor on the job who did all the flooring in "Yellow" Birch. Although... I will say that my initial impression of the flooring sample was that it looked like it had either a light yellow dye or, more likely, a slightly yellowish-tinted clear finish on it. Could it be that the hardwood supplier that our Project Manager showed the sample to has sold us Sweet Birch because it's a better match? All I really know is what I've been told at work combined with what I can see is the difference between the "Yellow" Birch and the Baltic Birch that I've put a clear finish on. The Baltic is decidedly browner and darker, although it's sapwood really isn't all that different looking than the "Yellow" Birch except that it's not as yellow.
Speaking of the diversity of the Birch family... the Hazelnut tree is also a member of the Birch family according to what I've read. I've got some Hazelnut wood drying at work and it visually looks very more like Apple wood than it does any of the Birch that I've worked with.
Regards,
Kevin
Kevin
Sweet Birch, or Black Birch as it is also called, has a very distinct wintergreen like scent to it when cut. The smell will remind you of root beer or birch beer. The twigs when green have a root beer flavor to them.
RichThe Professional Termite
Ah... well, that seals the deal. This stuff definitely doesn't smell any different than the Baltic Birch as far as I can tell.
Regards,
Kevin
>>"Speaking of the diversity of the Birch family... the Hazelnut tree is also a member of the Birch family according to what I've read. I've got some Hazelnut wood drying at work and it visually looks very more like Apple wood than it does any of the Birch that I've worked with."<<
I've worked with hazelnut a few times, but only experimentally. It's a shame it doesn't grow large enough to be an important timber. The wood is a little coarser textured and figured than are most birches and it has a nice, very light, creamy tan color. Nice shaping characteristics, too.
Hazelnut is also interesting from the paleobotany perspective, in that it is a nut producer and betrays the fact that the birches are actually distant kin to the walnuts and beech/chestnut/oak. Looking at most modern birches, I suspect it would be easier to conclude that they were more allied to the willows and aspens, or possibly witch-hazel, but that doesn't appear to be the case...Interesting trivia, although it drifts off topic.
Edited 9/2/2003 9:59:49 AM ET by Jon Arno
For shop cabs would MDO be a consideration?
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
>>"For shop cabs would MDO be a consideration?"<<
I don't know, Imerc. I don't mean to speak for Bit, but personally, there are limits to my cheapness. I don't like either partical board or the fiber boards for anything. In my experience, these manufactured panels don't seem to have as much linear integrity and tend to go swayback, especially on weight bearing horizontal surfaces, unless they are carefully supported. Also, they don't hold fasteners as well. You can get fasteners designed for the purpose (or so I've heard), but ordinary screws chew them up.
...But then I'm partial to real wood and also somewhat technologically backward in my approach to cabinetmaking. :O)
Edited 8/29/2003 4:27:16 PM ET by Jon Arno
Edited 8/29/2003 4:33:09 PM ET by Jon Arno
MDO is the stuff that is used for road side signs.
It ranks up there with tough.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
MDO (medium density overlay) refers to a cveneer made of paper and melimine. It does not refer to the core. The prduct can be fiber core or plywood.
Bitman ,
My question to you is how much cheaper is Poplar than Birch ? There may be very little difference in actual price . Perhaps Fir ply wood ? It all depends on what you want to end up with .As far as MDO as suggested on an earlier post , MDO stands for medium density overlay and is known as sign board and is primarily used for exterior signs as it is impervious to moisture and de-lamination problems.I would never attempt to challenge Mr.Arno as I respect him as a true authority on the subject of materials and woods way beyond my comprehension, but I believe the post he referred to meant to say MDF , medium density fiberboard primarily used for paint grade work. The painters love it . I can barely lift a full 3/4" sheet by myself .MDO is usually on the spendy side , go for the Birch maybe in a shop grade . good luck
>>"I would never attempt to challenge Mr.Arno as I respect him as a true authority on the subject of materials and woods way beyond my comprehension."<<
Well, Dusty, thanks for the kind words...but you can scratch "materials" off your list of topics for which I'd claim to have any special expertise. It's true I'm old enough to have worked at least once with almost every synthetic panel they've invented since the end of World War II...but that's as far as my expertise goes...and I'm still looking for one I like.
...Maybe this MDO sign board is a winner. I've used MDF and a coated form called melamine (sp?), but not MDO, at least not sold to me by that name....Wonder how many blades to the sheet it takes to cut one of those in half?
Edited 8/29/2003 11:40:36 PM ET by Jon Arno
Mr.Arno ,
MDO is often times 7 ply in 12" and 9 ply in 3/4" , all I have seen is veneer core and in a Fir plywood with a tough brown paper skin on the faces . It cuts just like a regular Fir or Birch plywood with no unusual wear or tear to saw blades . I have been a reader of FWW since its birth , It seems I have read many articles that you have contributed . Thank you for your eagerness to help in the field that has been a way of life and a career for me and many others .I have only recently started participating in this Knots forum , but I really enjoy the opportunity to share experiences and knowledge with this fine and diversified group of woodworkers . Even after 25 or 30 years of professional cabinetry and furniture work I try to learn something new every day . We must keep an open mind and continue to grow . Thanks for the post dusty
p/s. the main difference from melamine and MDF is the size of the particles in the core ,MDF is made of what is called wood flour and is very fine powdery dust,unlike the standard particle board core of melamine .
Check out C (stain grade) or D-2 (paint grade) Maple ply. Probably cheaper than the birch, and takes paint great. One side on the C is usually good enough for staining and/or a clear finish.
Thanks for all of the replies. I can get the 4X8X3/4 Birch for $35 and the Poplar (sounds like it is Aspen) for $25 a sheet. I too prefer to stay away from the manufactured stuff.
Thanks again,
bit
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