I want to fill pores on the top of a mahogany piece I just completed. However on a test piece results were not good – pores turned grey. Here are the details. Sanded to 220, applied a wash coat of shellac (Zinsser seal coat), thinned Pore-O-Pac with mineral spirits and tinted with artists oils, applied to test piece and waited till filler wrinkled up on scraper, scraped off, waited an hour or so and wiped down with a white synthetic pad (followed Peter Gedrys’ method from a FWW article).
After another hour or so pores turned grey – no grey on surface.
What did I do wrong? Thanks
Replies
Filler
Could the pad have made the filler dirty - or shed something into the semi dry filler
SA
possible I guess but the pad was new out of the package. I am going to try another test and I'll use something else - burlap maybe if I can find some in the barn.
Have you observed what happens when a top coat is applied over the pore filler? That may solve your problem. You can try this now on your test pieces, but for the actual piece you need to give oil based pore fillers substantial curing time. I would generally give it a week, if at all possible.
Report back after you have tested with a top coat sample.
You may also discover that the Pore-O-Pac has shrunk so that the surface isn't really smooth after the top coat dries. If this is the case on your test sample, you may need a second coat, applied at least a day or so after the first. Pore fillers with larger proportions of silica tend to shrink less. Examples include Sherwin Williams (though that's available only in gallons) and Old Masters pore fillers.
Yep
I bet it will be fine when the top finish is applied.
You might try using a hair drier or heat gun on very low heat to speed up the curing of the filler JUST FOR THE TEST SAMPLE.
Lots of air flow so it oxidizes and a little warmth to help speed up the chemical change.
I use the white pads quite a lot for other things and have not found any significant shedding.
.
A couple of observations;
If you haven't applied your finish coat yet the pores will have a tendency to look grey. If they still look grey after finishing, you can increase the saturation of color in the filler and make another sample. You may see, though, that the pores assume the proper color after a coat of finish.You're on the right path by making samples first.
Pore o Pac is a cheap cousin to others like S.W. It just happens to be the most common available. A second application of filler will often improve the final appearance from a filling standpoint.
One important point on your steps: don't wait an hour to scrub the surface free of excess with a white pad. If you re-read that step, I scrape first, wait a few minutes (less than 10) and then "erase" what is left on the surface with a white pad. If I come back an hour later, it is to lightly wipe the surface with a cotton rag slightly dampened or charged with mineral spirits. This removes any traces of filler left on the surface. The operative word here is lightly. It's easy to make the rag too wet and pull the filler out of the pores. Often I'll just use a clean, dry rag to do this when all looks well to me.
PG
success
Thanks to all of you for your top coat suggestion. I padded on a few coats of shellac and the grey disappeared.
Peter: I read your article about a week before I actually did the first test piece - clearly my recall was less than total about time intervals. I'm also going to get the sherwin wiliams filler. I spent too many hours on this project to use an inferior product at the crucial finishing stage.
Concerning the S.W. paste filler: It's about $78 per gallon and only available in gallons. If you do go this route ask for a can that is fairly new. They have a code on the cans that they can read for you.
Be sure and mix it extremely well at the start. A mixing paddle on a drill is the way to go.
Another option that Steve mentioned is Modern Masters paste filler. It is probably available in quarts, I don't know as I have not used it. According to what Steve said it has a high proportion of silex in it too. That will make it superior to Pore O Pac.
Good luck and be sure and post some pictures when you're done.
PG
Some times simpler is better
$80 with tax
Product expiration dates
Mixing large quantities that will in all likelyhood be thrown out because you won't use it all.
I don't know man, since you obviously want top quality and you are applying shellac anyway, you may want to just read this
https://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2144
(couldn't be better info. Have you read his book Adventures in Wood Finishing ?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/091880406X/sr=8-1/qid=1323145820/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1323145820&sr=8-1&seller=
A great read even if you aren't a woodworker !)
Do what he says and it is inexspensive, easy, ( but time consuming), and you will have a valuable skill when you are done.
read the article, bought the book used on amazon. Looks like a technique that requires considerable practice but I've got all the stuff so I'm going to give it a try on a test board. We'll see what happens.
A couple of notes on that process:
I never quite understood when he said "you flick a little oil on the surface"
Be sparing with the pumice. I prefer to add a pinch of dry pigment to it to help kill the white, burnt or raw umber or a combination of both depending on color desired.
It does take a fair amount of practice. If your project is fairly small, it's pretty quick once you get the hang of it. Repeating that on a large project will definitely open your eyes. That said it's always good to add another dimension to your regime.
Paste filler will be more straight forward and predictable. On wood with prominent pores a second application is advisable and will go quickly.
Personally, I look at material costs as a very small part of the equation. As a finisher, those costs are minimal when you compare the time spent completing the project. However, time may not be as an important issue for you.
Whatever you do have fun with it from a learning aspect. You can't lose.
Prevents a sticky wicket.
>flick a little oil on the surface<
the oil isn't part of the finish. It doesn't go into the wood or the shellac. It just lays on the surface and helps to keep the "rubber" from grabbing as one glides in for a touch down.
A few drops go a long way. Putting the drops on the bottom of the rubber maybe too much. Later the oily film that keeps floating to the surface is removed in the final steps where one is using pure alcohol on the rubber and no additional shellac so it doesn't grab like it does during the bodying up stage where the alc is rich with shellac.
I suppose if Frank were working today he would use one of those oil sprays to apply the oil like the low cal folks like for cooking.
http://www.amazon.com/Misto-Stainless-Steel-Olive-Sprayer/dp/B002V91TY4/ref=sr_1_4?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1323409372&sr=1-4
Roc,
Thank you for the explanation of flicking oil. With due respect I know what and how oil is used in French polishing. Over my career I've done furniture as well as vertical surfaces in libraries. It pays to be ambidextrous when doing walls or your shoulders get very tired in short order.
Just to throw a wrench into the philosophy: I never use oil. I was fully admonished years ago by the head of the furniture dept at the MFA in Boston to French polish without it and have done it like that ever since. You develop a greater sense of touch without the lubricant that is hard to explain.
Of course a purist will reply "not use oil?? Then it's not french polishing" So be it. I'll stand by my results. It's funny that all the conservators I know do it the same way.
Peter Gedrys
Oil
The oil is best used on the last coat to polish the finish. It won't darken anything at that point. Not sure why the furn dept in Boston rejects the oil -
Peter can you expand on the discipline for banning the oil ?
SA
Westchester,
Not sure what you mean by the oil not darkening anything at the end. The oil is only used to lubricate the the pad. During the final process of "spiriting off" any oil left on the surface is removed and the surface is burnished to a high shine.
There are a variety of methods to fully remove this oil as a final step. George Frank advocates a little Tripoli on the pad, Charles Hayward on the other hand advocates fine chalk. Some just wash it away with naptha. Many ways and philosophies. The old saying of the end justifying the means comes to mind.
The person who counseled me to polish oil free was a Brit. He probably came up through the ranks doing it like that. I thought if it was good enough to sit in a fine museum collection, maybe I should try it. It taught me to have a certain feel for the shellac under the pad.
Finishing, in any fashion, is all a matter of personal taste. You can see by some of the discussions in Knots that anything under the sun seems to go. Some will advocate a wipe on varnish for any and all circumstances. Others are the Poly Police and will scold you for using it. Some come up with concoctions, that in my mind, make no sense from a chemical perspective.
The end justifies the means.
Pete
I agree with all you state - but what I'm trying to figure out is why would the head of a furn dept ban oil ?
Oil darkens wood but a little toward the end of pad polishing - no harm done - am I wrong ?
SA
Westchester,
The oil has nothing to do with darkening the wood in this case. I'm not sure why you're hung up on that point. It's on the surface not in the wood. Plus a basic lubricating oil like paraffin or mineral oil is not a drying oil and won't darken anything. Other oils employed could be as diverse as raw linseed or poppy oil.
He didn't "ban" the oil, he just didn't use it. I assume it was the method he was taught. I've seen polishers doing guitars with a great deal of oil in their method. Probably the way they were taught.
I started out with small amounts of oil in my regime. I rarely if ever do so anymore because I tried it a different way and liked it better. When I teach someone to use a pad and shellac I don't have any oil around. I just get them used to the pull of the shellac on the pad.
They can progress with oil or not as they please. It's all a matter of touch and personal preference.
Darkening
Pete -
I was trying to think of a reason why you don't use oil and now realize it's just not your way of polishing. Oil and wood present problems for finishers - plus darken wood with age and is always hard to remove. Oil used in polishing won't be the same thing as rubbing boiled linseed oil onto unfinished wood but I was still wondering why someone would suggest no oil is an alternative way favored by them for polishing?
In my experience - I could never make the tight circular strokes or turn out of corners without a drop of oil. With oil I have found it possible to pad out a glass like surface without any demarcation. So yes I think we're agreed - different techniques to the same end.
One difference is that I favor the commercial padding polishes over shellac mixes. I had never been able to pad out a finish with shellac as well as when using the store bought finishes.
Thanks for your view Pete - always appreciative to learn new techniques.
SA
Westchester,
Why someone started polishing oil free.... who knows? Maybe to save time. It's nothing new under the sun that's for sure. I will tell you once you feel comfortable without it, you'd be surprised at just how well you can feel the state of the shellac under your pad.
If I had you for an hour in the shop you'd be doing tight corners and circles with confidence (and no oil) This would be with Sealcoat right out of the can too.
Give it a shot and let me know how you do. I'll be willing to bet you normally start out with a pad that is too wet. Try this on a new board; Get your pad charged with shellac and use the typical circular motion. The operational word here is charged not dripping wet. The pad will discharge pretty quickly on raw wood. Recharge and do it again. Once you have shellac on the surface you should land with a light touch and increase pressure as it unloads.
After going around in circles, move into an elongated figure eight and "pull over" those circular marks. Let me know how you do.
An off the subject example to illustrate
>hung up on . . .
Finding out the reason for avoiding the oil<
I can see that. It is a demonstration of professional technique.
For example in bicycle mechanics for removing a tire and replacing it about any book you read or demonstration in a class will have you using "tire levers" to introduce the newbie to the worst case scenario.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN2Qa33Vz2o
Here is the real skinny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNhLPXfd8FM
The narrowest width road tires are just as easy. It is a myth the narrow tires are more difficult.
If it is difficult there are problems with technique, bad rim design, rim strip dimensions etc.
I can practically shake my tires when flat and the wheel nearly falls out of the tire. None of this straining and sweating and blisters. It does not HAVE to be a strength thing.
Those are crap rims even if they cost hundreds of dollars just for the rim ( not including spokes and hub ).
I carry a tire lever with me on the road but only if I need to help some one with crap wheels.
When one KNOWS how, they may not need oil for applying shellac or tire levers to fix a flat on a bicycle.
The first few times they are good crutches to get er done.
The problem with the oil is just that it takes time to clean off.
The problem with tire levers is they tend to pinch a hole in the tube , getting it off and again putting it on, with a very tight fitting rim/tire combo, if one isn't experienced and careful.
Or if using the slide along the rim technique it can easily grab the tube and tear a rip in it.
If you say " that never happens to me" chances are your tire fits on the rim easily, with good technique, and the tire lever is not really needed anyway.
The problem then is it is just more useless paraphernalia.
Of course if one likes using oil or tire levers have fun with them. I do things for no rational reason other than I enjoy it but realize that is what one is doing and don't argue for the NEED for said toy.
Not that you are arguing for the need of oil or not but I see why you were pursuing a REASON why to avoid it.
PS: sorry couldn't get the first link to work. Sorry assed forum thing here. Just cut and paste into your browser.
I am not sure if Frank said this or not but anyway
some one said about french polishing that there is no problem that can't be cured with more alcohol.
Ha, ha . . . not sure if they were saying that with tung in cheek. It is pretty much true about the french polishing ( not that I am a big expert or any thing.
One problem I had that could not really be cured with more alcohol :
I let the cover over the ball of stuff applicator wear to the point it got a little hole in it. Bad thing to do / avoid this / don't keep going if you wear the cover out. What happened to me was I applied kind of a micro squirted line of finish which dried super quick. Getting rid of that bump of a line was a night mare. Even sanding didn't take care of it. I had to scrape it down.
I was using cotton hankie for the cover. Too thin. I switched to real linen cloth and that was fine.
My first project with this technique was a dining table so I didn't know a large surface was a problem. So it wasn't. Or else I figured all that pain was just part of livin". Now with a year of distance between then and now I remember it as a good time. Sort of like how a hundred mile bicycle ride or a marathon, looking back, seems like a "good time " when in actuality, while one is doing it, there is a tendency to ponder the soundness of ones mental structure .
grey pores
Did you use wet or dry sandpaper (grey)
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled