I am expecting shipment within the next 5-7 days on a new PM 2000. I have been notified that it is in transit.
I need suggestions for the power cord. I understand it will have a short cord with no plug. I want the cord on the saw to be short and bring the power to the saw by a 220 extension. That means I will have to have a male at the saw, a mail and female on the cord, and a female at the wall outlet. The outlet is 50 amp single phase.
I would like the extension cord to be as pliable as possible as I will unplug it from time to time and would like to be able to roll it up and hang it on the wall.
My dryer has a three pronged plug and the wire has three separate wires fused together. It is pliable and must have stranded wire rather then solid one piece wire. I will wanbt to use 12 guage wire.
I would like to hear from ones experienced in wiring setups similar to what I have described. I looked at Lowes and they do not have any 12 guage wire that is not very rigid.
I need suggestions on the wire and the plugs.
Replies
I would recommend Type SO cord for your extension cord. The rubbber jacket and fine stranding is much more flexible and abrasion resistant than the applicance cord on your dryer which is not intended for use as portable cord. Most big box stores have it in bulk.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
use 2 wire w/ ground stranded wire not solid...it looks like an extension cord and you can buy it by the foot pretty much any place they sell bulk wire(i've seen it at both Lowe's and Home Depot on the big rotating spool caddy they have)...i would use 10ga in lieu of 12 ga...
Make sure you buy plugs and outlets rated for the appropriate amperage...also a bad idea to use the same plug format as your 110v circuits...don't laugh, i've seen people do it and just mark them 220...
I went to Lowes today and found some stranded 10 guage wire. My saw is rated for under 15 amps so I purchased the outlets and plugs which were rated 20 guage.
My multibraker is rated 50 amps and the man at Lowes said that it would not be smart to run a 50 amp to the 20 guage wire. he saie the thare could be overload on the wire and the braker would not trip and eventually would be a fire hazzard.
Do you concur that I need to change the braker to 20 amp?
Holy crap, I can't beleive some of the answers you are getting here.
First it never hurts to have heavier wire. I like to make up cords out of 10ga, so that they are ok regardless of what machine I plug them into.
Second the purpose of a breaker is not to protect the device that is plugged into the circuit, but to protect the circuit itself, the panel, the electrical service, and the house.
the breakers for 220 are commonly all 2-Lug breakers (they have two handles joined together) this is so that it picks up both hot legs in the panel.
I would concur that a 50amp breaker should not be used, it is too much for this application also you might need to run 8 or even 6 ga wire (depending on the length of the run) to support that 50 amp breaker (not for the saw, but if you actually intended to plug in a device that would draw 50 amps). with a 30 amp circuit you should have 10ga wire to your recepticle (again depending on the length of run, but i always run 220 in 10 ga).
use an outlet and plugs rated the same as your breaker, so in this case a 30amp outlet and plugs.
if you put the 30 amp breaker in your panel, have 10ga wire running from the panel to a 30amp recepticle, run a 10ga extension cord with 30 amp 220v connectors and put the matching connector on your table saw YOU SHOULD HAVE NO PROBLEMS.....I discussed this at length with both electricians and electrical engineers when i wired my shop
you will be fine with this setup.
cscwem says:
if you put the 30 amp breaker in your panel, have 10ga wire running from the panel to a 30amp recepticle, run a 10ga extension cord with 30 amp 220v connectors and put the matching connector on your table saw YOU SHOULD HAVE NO PROBLEMS.....I discussed this at length with both electricians and electrical engineers when i wired my shop
you will be fine with this setup.
This is the answer that the little old lady would want. This is the answer Coolbreeze wanted.
I have the 220 30 amp braker in my braker box. I am going to use a 20 amp plug to attach to the wall where the wire is stubbed. I am going to put a matching male 20 amp plug on the end of my 10 guage extension wire so I can plug the cord into the wall. I am going to put a 20 amp female plug at the other end( machine end) of the extension cord. I am going to put a matching male 20 amp plug on the end of the cord running from my PM switch box.
Seems simple. Did I get it right?
No, this is not correct. As was stated previously, you cannot put the 20-amp outlet on your 30-amp circuit. As DavidCockey suggested, you can put a 20-amp breaker on the circuit and be fine.
Is it legal to use 20-amp outlets on a 30-amp circuit? No.
Will your house blow up if you do install 20-amp outlets on a 30-amp circuit? No.
If I had a 30-amp circuit in the wall, and a 20-amp outlet in my hand, would I install the outlet on the circuit? Don’t ask, and I won’t have to lie.
Rick,
I think I get your drift with that last statement. It would not be hard for me to change the braker to 20 amps. I just have to get motivated by the actual need to do so.
Thanks for your input.
Cool
in reality with a 30 amp circuit and 20 amp outlets as long as you do not plug in anything that draws more than 20 amps you would not have a problem...
is it good practice???...NO, because there is nothing to keep someone from plugging in something that draws the higher amperage....(except there should be different plugs on 20 amp and 30 amp devices)
but unless a machine draws more amperage than the outlet is rated for there is little chance of a problem...
Thanks cscwem, I have already installed the 20 amp wall plug. I have also installed the male and female plugs onto the cord. I am just waiting for my PM 2000.
BTY, I have also ordered a WWII. I chose it over the Freud Premier Fusion. The choice came down to the fact that I can get Forrest to sharpen the blade. I have the Chopmaster and is is superb.
C.B.: If you don't mind me answering a question you put to Mr. Rick; how about your insurance coverage in case something ever does go wrong? Keeping all the plugs, breakers, wire sizes straight makes sense, it is not there just to sell parts and tell people what to do. All you have to do is swap out the breaker to a twenty or fifteen amp two pole using the wire that is already in the wall. The cord you bought is 10ga? If so it is way more then adequate. Fourteen gauge would have done fine, don't listen to rumors about voltage drop, it won't come into the picture at these short distances.
Duke"... Buy the best and only cry once.........
Duke,
First, there is/will be no problem with insurance. My career was 30 years as state marketing manager for a major P&C insurance company. Also, I live in a rural area of Mississippi and the politicians have not been able to sell the idea of codes for rural areas. All cities have codes.
Having said the above, I do not want to have my 5500 sf home to burn. The 816 sf shop is part of the 5500 and is built into the house like a second garage. I would not sell all I have for anywhere near what it is insured for and I do have adequate coverage.
The reason for the post is that from a logical standpoint, no problem can occur running the juice down the line in the manner as I have it now. That is 30a from the braker to the plug, 20a (through an overkill 10 guage wire) from the plug to the machinw which will have a short cord which is the cord provided by PM.
You are absolutely right. It is relatively simple to change out the 30A braker to a 20 and I just may still do it.
"Coaches who listen to the fans soon will be sitting with the fans" Bobby Knight
C.B.: OK man, do as you like. I wouldn't do it that way but what you are contemplating is not anything wild, just slightly outside accepted practice and code.
Good Luck, get back to us all if you need anything else. Duke"... Buy the best and only cry once.........
There is a standard format for 220 volt, 20 amp plugs and sockets. It's similar to the common 110 volt, 10 amp format except the flat blades are rotated a quarter of a turn so they line up with each other.
C.B.: First of all congrats on the new saw. Now electric wise do not use a 30 amp circuit for a 20 amp (class) machine. You are playing with fire, literally. Unless you are abandoning the drier you will need another circuit. 15 or 20 amp 220 volt circuit is what you need. Which ever the manufacturer states in the book or on the nameplate is what is required per the NEC. A 12/3 or 14/3 extension cord is all that is needed. They can be found sometimes or can be made up as needed. You cannot use romex, if I get the meaning of your mentioning "stiffness" or "rigidity". The cable you want is SO or SJO. I also recommend buying industrial quality cord connector and cord cap (plug). Duke, retired electrician
"... Buy the best and only cry once.........
Duke (the retired electrician)
The 220 service to my shop does not involve my dryer or anything else. When my electrician wired the shop, he stubed the outlet because I did not have a 220 machine to run. The braker (50 amp) servicing that line is a side-by-side braker (twins) and the on/off switch is bridged. The braker I bought today is like that except it is a 30 amp braker. The man told me that it would work. However, I am always sceptical of the big box workers expertise. Do they make a 15 amp braker to service 220? I have 13 and 20 amp 110's. If so, are they made up side by side like the 30 I bought today?
The wire I bought ($48) says CCI SUPREME 105 AGW 3/C SJE00W E54884 (UL) 300V -60C TO 105C CSA LL3953 SJT00W (TPE) -50C TO 105C FT2 WATER RESISTANT. the wire(s) in the cord are strands rather than wires. It has the feel of a heavy extension cord
I would hope to be able to use this wire since it was cut to length and cast me $48.
My question would be how it could hurt the machine. It seems to me that 14 guage on the 3 hp motor would be on the margin to handle the amps. I do not heve the manufacturers specs yet as the machine is yet to be delivered.
Does a 220 braker come in 15 amps?
CoolBreeze: The wire description you gave is fine:"junior" heavy service cord with oil and weather resistance. You didn't mention the wire gauge, though. The wire doesn't have to match the breaker unless it is hard wired: ie no plug or receptacle, permnenently connected to the wall. As I said 12 or 14 gauge would be fine, 10 would work but be overkill and more expensive. Also harder to connect to cap and connector properly. As far as the breaker goes you can always put a smaller breaker on larger wire, as long as the lugs on the breaker will accept the wire. It does not work the other way around. The size of the breaker determines the size of the circuit, not the wire gauge. Two pole breakers are available in 15, 20 amp and other ratings. The breaker provides overload protection (o/l) for a machine that does not have its own o/l in the manual or auto starter. That is why the breaker should be rated as the manufacturer states.
Also RickChristopherson's <!----><!----> advice is always good but there is much "poor" electrical advice around. Be careful. Duke"... Buy the best and only cry once.........
Now electric wise do not use a 30 amp circuit for a 20 amp (class) machine. You are playing with fire, literally.
Can you explain this please? How does running a 20 amp or smaller saw on a 30 amp circut constitute "playing with fire"?
Mr. Cocky,
Installing a 15 or 20 amp outlet on a 30 amp circuit is a violation of the NEC. While it is permissible to install the 15-amp tool on the 30 amp circuit, most people that overrate their circuits do not properly rate the outlet. The original poster will have a harder time locating a NEMA 6-30 outlet at the home center versus the more common 6-15 or 6-20 outlet.So even though Duke's advise on the 30-amp circuit is a little more grave than necessary, it is nonetheless on the right track. As the original poster has already stated, he purchased 20-amp outlets. These cannot be installed on a 30-amp circuit.
Edited 2/8/2007 2:51 am ET by RickChristopherson
I assume an alternative would be replacing the 30 amp breaker with a 20 amp breaker and installing a 20 amp outlet.
As far as I'm aware the code allows the wire to be larger gauge than required.
David: Sorry for the confusion: I meant the receptacle needs to match the breaker on a 30 amp circuit. At full load a utilization device, NEC speak for a machine or anything using power, that pulls the full 30 amp short term or at 80% of that long term would overheat 15 or 20 amp devices.
Duke"... Buy the best and only cry once.........
Now I am thoroughly confused. I have been to three goat ropings and two county fairs, but I will be able to untangle my two barain cells:-)
I already have 10 guage wire. That wire will conduct the electricity from the wall plug to the machine plug. From the machine plug to the motor will be the wire that Powermatic provides and obviously will be the size recommended by PM. I will have about 25 feet of the 10 guage wire. In my mind, I thought this would work the same as a 100w bulb plugged into a 20 amp 110 circuit. The bulb only uses the amount needed. this may be a good example of "think long, think wrong".
I need a straight up answer. If my shop is already wired for single phase 220 that is served by a 30 amp braker, could I plug in and safely run my PM 2000?
Gotta tell this story: A frail old lady went into a store to buy a heater. The salesman started to explain the benefits of the machine. He started by talking about British Thermal Units. Then he started esplaining how the thermalcoupler worked when the old lady put her hand on the salesman's arm and asked, "mister, just tell me, will it keep me warm".
That is where I am:-)
Get the heaviest extension cord you can find- I bought mine at HD and cut the ends off, hardwired it inside the saw's switch box and put a twist-lock plug on the other end. The cord is rated higher than my saw will draw, it's 10 AWG stranded and yellow with a black tracer. I cut off about 15' to use for the saw and hang it coiled up on the the splitter bar coming out the back. 6 years and absolutely no problems with the cord or the inspector. I unplug it when I'm not using the saw so nobody will walk up and turn the saw on. The plug is rated for at least 35A 240V and the receptical is on it's own circuit. .
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled