Replies

1. 
   Vibart2 | Apr 29, 2002 12:01am | #1

   You don't say if this saw will be used for business or hobby. So I'll assume it will be used for hobby.

   I am not trying to be hard nosed about where tools are made but the world is getting smaller partly because people don't want to pay the big bucks for a product no matter where it is made. I have some American made tools in my shop as well as some Taiwan made tools. I have a Craftsman Contractors saw which is American made & I set it up properly & it works fine. I have friends that have the Jet Cabinet saw I would jump at the chance to have one if I could afford it. The Jet cabinet saw is a real nice well made saw. Remember you can get a bad product no matter where it is manufactured. Even when I can afford a new Powermatic or Jet Cabinet saw I'll probably purchase a Grizzly G1023SL left tilt Cabinet saw... Why because with the $1200 --- $700 dollars I save I can purchase 1-2 more machines for my home hobby shop I don't need a $1500 -- $2500 saw for hobby wood working.  I'll just bet you we could both make a piece of furniture (if our skills were the same... & I'm not saying either one of us is better than the other.) When the wood comes out of the saw it won't know which saw cut it. When the furniture project is finished ... all skills being the same ... you won't be able to tell whether a Powermatic or a Craftsman saw cut the material. We could even go the great lengths by each cutting 1/2 of the other persons project on our respective saws & the result would be the same.

   Yes I too get great satisfaction having tools. But I get greater satisfaction out of what I can make with those tools.

   I hope what I have written has made sense & made a friend & not an enemy.

   Contrary to popular belief the guy with the most or best toys doesn't win. I don't have anyone to leave them to so I'm not breaking the bank now either. (Just remember we can't take the tools with us when we go, so make something nice to leave behind for someone to remember you by.)

   http://bartswoodshop.freeservers.com/

   Bart

   View Image

1. 
   cudashark | Oct 25, 2013 09:24am | #27

   Not true at all

   I have had Grizzly, Jet and Powermatic table saws and it matters a great deal if you intend to make a square cut regularly. The grizzly has a terrible trunion with a lot of play in it and will edge cut wood with the blade edge requiring you to over cut your wood and then get to a joiner to square it up.

   Unless you are cutting ply...then you will need many other tricks. It makes a great deal of differance. Buy the best you can afford.

   Cheap people are always compairing their results to the best. Be the best....

   Ray

2. 
   TonymanNH | Apr 29, 2002 04:41am | #2

   As far as I can tell, "Made in Taiwan" is (or should not be) a stigma... it all comes down to what level of design, fit, and finish the company (US or otherwise) has contracted for at the factory, and what level of incoming QC, setup, and service they provide here in the states.

   Although PM and Delta still make their large tablesaws, jointers, and planers here, many of their semi-pro tools (things like the 15" surface planer that everyone sells) are made in Taiwan.  In general, Delta, Jet, and Powermatic-branded Taiwanese tools seem to show up with nice motors, nice switches, smooth controls, in decent tune, and with well-written manuals.  You can look at the 'same' 15" planer coming out of what I'm pretty sure is the same factory, but specced by Woodworker's Warehouse for their Reliant brand, and it has a lame motor, rough finish, a flimsy stand, etc.  They ask for something cheaper, and they get it.  Your choice!

   Jet's bigger tools are very well made, and from what I can tell, have been for a long time.  Lately, it looks like their smaller tools are pretty well specified and made also.

   And to make the whole flag-waving (or bashing) thing a little tougher, Jet now owns Powermatic, which I assume now means that Powermatic's quality, availability, and after-sales support will be on par with Jet's again.  IMO, Powermatic had gotten rather flakey in the last year or so before they were bought out.

   One thing I've noticed that the price of the Powermatic 66 has jumped quite a bit since the takeover; Jet seems to be positioning its own tools as Delta-competers, and letting the 66 be the premium product.  IMO, the Jet cabinet saw is great (I have one), so the 66 better be *really* great, since it now sells for a 25% premium over the Jet, which isn't being given away anymore either!

1. 
   lwilliams | Apr 29, 2002 04:14pm | #5

   Go somewhere where you can compare the Jet and Powermatic side-by-side. Ask the sales staff to remove the top so you can look at the trunions and motor mounts. Keep in mind that accurately machined cast iron is expensive and you'll understand the price difference.

1. 
   bill_1010 | Apr 29, 2002 05:15pm | #6

   Larry is right, look at the underside of the PM, Jet and Delta.  The PM is the M1 Abrams tank, while the Jet and Delta is more like a Sherman Tank.

   Ive considered the Delta and Jet to be competitors. While the General and PM are more competitors.

   Id buy the Jet over a Delta. And since General introduced a left Tilt cabinet saw its a toss up between the General and PM.  Id lean to the PM but in all reality you cant go wrong with either the Gen or PM.

   Also, Notice the shipping wt of the PM vs the Jet/Delta. THey dont add lead ignots just to make the common carrier happy.  Its somewhere around 150+ lbs of weight difference.  That translates to less vibration and more stability. On teh downside, if you dont have a dedicated home for a heavier saw that means more pushing on your saw to move it around regarless of rollers.

   Edited 4/29/2002 10:22:42 AM ET by BILL_1010

1. 
   sschefer | Apr 29, 2002 06:16pm | #7

   PM is simply Jet Tools upper end line. Its a great saw, but nothing in its class is designed for a high production shop. In the small to medium sized cabinet or furniture shops it or the General will perform admirably. In the home hobbyists shop its probably overkill. A properly tuned Jet Contractors saw with cast iron wings, (adds the weight you need), a high end set of blades and either a Beismeyer or the upper end Jet fence will serve most of us just fine. I have an older PM 66 which I have put into storage until I have room for it in a bigger shop. The one thing we have to remember about stationary tools is that they are best left in one spot.

   The other thing is customer service.. PM and Jet are excellent, which make sense since they are the same company. Delta pretty much stinks but I've heard that General is decent.

   Steve - in Northern California

   Edited 4/29/2002 11:30:29 AM ET by Steve Schefer

3. 
   jeffn7 | Apr 29, 2002 08:13am | #3

   I have a unisaw that is indeed 'made in the USA', and my compliments are to Delta for really great customer support. They worked with me through a lot of problems, owned up to a number of quality assurance problems they were having, and finally ended up shipping me a new saw to replace my problem prone one. Is this is indicative of 'made in the USA', it may make 'made in taiwan' look good comparatively.

   The moral of this story could be that it isn't where the product is made, but the company that is behind it... but I really think that it should be about having a tool that is built right the first time so that you don't have to deal with the company.

1. 
   MikeK50 | Apr 29, 2002 08:48am | #4

   I narrowed my choices down to a Delta Unisaw and the PM 66.  I bought the PM 66 and am glad.  While the Unisaw is a great machine, I appreciate the finer fit and finish on the PM 66.  I have used a Unisaw in my friend's cabinet shop and I have no complaints, but the PM has a nicer feel to it.

   If cost was a serious consideration, the Jet would have been a contender, although the General 350 is a great buy due to the Canadian/US exchange rate.  I'd rate the General on par with the PM, both of which I'd rate higher than the Delta in the overall quality scale.

   You get what you pay for.  The castings and overall fit an finish are fine on the top end machines.  The Jets, Grizzly's and other will still do the job, but I am willing to pay extra to get better quailty, fit and finish in the last table saw I will have to buy.

   Mike

4. 
   HeidiDad | Apr 29, 2002 10:57pm | #8

   My vote goes to PM.  Like someone said they don't add weight just to boost the shipping bill.  I love mine.  Wouldn' trade it for a doz. Jets.  (nothing against Jet)  Its just that PM really is that good.  ( My humble opinion)  If you've got the bucks, go PM.  You won't be sorry.  Space??  Believe it or not, My PM doesn't take up much more room than my old bench top with custom wings.

1. 
   sschefer | Apr 29, 2002 11:06pm | #9

   The one thing we have to remember about stationary tools is that they are best left in one spot.

   I probably didn't make this statement clear enough. I was refering to situations where the saw needs to be moved to allow you to work with other equipment. This is very common in smaller shops like mine and makes the PM66 somewhat impractical.

   Also, if you buy PM you're buying Jets customer service.. This is what really pops PM and Jet over the top in my opinion. Steve - in Northern California

1. 
   jeffn7 | Apr 29, 2002 11:36pm | #10

   I've heard from many that Jet's customer support is excellent, and I also understand that Delta is working to narrow this gap. If my experience is indicative, they are doing a good job. Everytime I called Delta, I was connected with a courteous and very knowledgeable tech support rep who quickly answered my question, or got back to me in a timeframe that was committed to, and most importantly, Delta never hesitated to overnight me a replacement part when I needed it.

   I wouldn't hestitate to buy delta because of customer support questions, in my opinion, they couldn't be doing much more to provide excellent support to their customers.

1. 
   sschefer | Apr 29, 2002 11:46pm | #11

   Thats GREAT news. Delta is a product I've always had great respect for.Steve - in Northern California

2. 
   MikeK50 | May 06, 2002 01:28am | #23

   Steve,

   I bought a 5 HP PM 66 with a 50" Accufence.  Since space is an issue in my two-car garage, I bought 30" fence rails and use it that way.  I have the PM mobile base and I have no problem at all moving it around my shop.

   I'm saving the 50" rails for when I have room, and hopefully will not have to roll it around any more. 

   Note that it is just as easy to roll around with the 50" rails.

   Mike

5. 
   ETG | Apr 30, 2002 10:11pm | #12

   The story behind Powermatic:

   Powermatic was owned by Houdaille Industries, an industrial equipment firm - they made all their machines in Tennessee.  They began to lose market share and in an attempt to make a comeback, launched their Artisian line - machines made off shore.  They continued to lose money, Houdaille dumped them and for a brief period they stopped manufacturing tools.  Then  Walter Meier Holdings, AG (WMH) of Switzerland, bought Powermatic and formed the WMH Tool Group joining other brands  already owned by Meier - Wilton, Performax, Jet, Columbian, WaxMaster, Spectra Tools and Polishmaster.  So in fact Jet did not buy Powermatic but instead joined Jet under the same parent.  FWW did an article on the manufacturing operations of Powermatic, Delta and General probably 10 years ago or so and one key point made was the aging of the castings of all 3 companies.  General and Delta did minimal aging while Powermatic let their castings age 6 months or more.  Metallurgists can argue back and forth about the virtues of aging castings but I suspect Powermatic no longer can afford to age their castings like they used to.

   General, who is based in Drummondville, Ontario also has a broad tool line - not sure if they are privately held or not.  But what is significant is the forming of General International and the introduction of a number of machines now made off shore.  So like Delta and Jet, both Powermatic and General are relying more on off shore components and/or fully assembled products.

   As someone pointed out earlier, you have to really understand a machine and then "dig in" before you buy it - look at the trunions, look at the gearing, the motor mounts, the origin of the motor, etc.  One thing about the Delta Unisaw - they still use American made motors which have a good track record.

   Except for the frills, there is very little change in a good table saw - if anything, some expense (manufacturing cost) has been taken out of the newer machines.  I continue to be pleased with older machines that are much cheaper, definitely have aged castings and would show any obvious faults long before now (like twisting, warpage, etc.).  The more I use my early 50's Delta lathe, the more I'm convinced it's better than the the new machines.  And remember, the person in the tool store is a salesperson and not necessarily your friend - just like buying a car, you have to be totally informed.

1. 
   sschefer | Apr 30, 2002 10:26pm | #13

   Not to contradict, I just an FYI -

   WMH, Walter Meier Holding, AG and the investors in Wilton Tool Company are pleased to announce the merger of the Wilton Tool Company, Chicago, Illinois, with JET Equipment & Tools, Auburn, Washington.

   Founded in 1958, JET Equipment & Tools has grown aggressively in the material handling, metalworking, and woodworking markets. Purchased by WMH in 1988, the company quickly became a leader in the woodworking machinery industry while maintaining a presence in the material handling and metalworking markets. In 1999 JET purchased Performax Products and the Powermatic Corporation. Powermatic¯ woodworking products were first introduced in 1921. In 2001 Wilton Machinery joined JET.

   This merger will complete the fourth acquisition in the past three years for WMH. Heinz Ruegg, President/CEO of WMH states, "WMH is looking to the future to broaden its channels of distribution while greatly expanding the product offering of tools and accessories serving the industrial and consumer marketplace."

   The new company will be named the WMH Tool Group and will be headquarted in Chicago, Illinois. Dennis Jacobson, currently President/CEO of Wilton Tool Company, will serve as President and CEO. The current investors of Wilton Tool Company will remain as minority shareholders. The WMH Tool Group will employ 600 people worldwide and produce annual sales of more than $250 millionSteve - in Northern California

1. 
   ETG | May 01, 2002 04:08pm | #14

   If you sort through what you posted, Jet was owned by Walter Meier and I can assure you Jet did not buy Powermatic - Jet acted as the US vehicle for Walter Meier - Meier finally clarified everything by making it the WMH tool group and shows Jet as it always was - one of several investments in the the US tool market.  You can bet your bippy Walter Meier ultimately calls the shots - they are a very successful firm, not unlike Atlas - Copco who bought Milwaukee.

1. 
   sschefer | May 01, 2002 04:44pm | #15

   You stated - "I can assure you Jet did not buy Powermatic - Jet acted as the US vehicle for Walter Meier" Can you tell me how this process works, I'm very interested to know. Steve - in Northern California

1. 
   ETG | May 01, 2002 05:15pm | #16

   When Jet first hit the scene in the 70's, they heavily copied Delta machines - all the way to the triangle logo copywrited by Delta.  Big law suit, Delta wins, Jet goes back to making low/medium end machines staying just on the brink of legal issues.  Walter Meier bought them in the late 80's and began "cleaning them up'' - probably even a switch to better offshore suppliers.  Meier - not Jet - decides to start adding other investments in the US market - they add Columbian, Powermatic, etc.  Jet is the US entity for Meier to transact all this business - Jet sure doesn't have the money to buy these outfits.  Finally as the stable is getting crowded with a half dozen tool firms, Meier creates a holding entity - the WMH - Tool Group to manage all these firms.  The impression most people have is Jt did all this - not so - it was done under their name for convenience.  Similar situation is Delta and Porter Cable - 2 separate divisions under Pentair.  Pentair decides to consolidate similar functions - purchasing, finished goods distribution, etc. for good management reasons.  All of a sudden, everybody is saying Poeter Cable and Delta have merged or Delta bought out PC.  In reality in my area, the Porter Cable service center has been servicing both PC and Delta for over 15 years in a seamless operation.

   What folks should be concerned about is who is the real owner and what kind of committment they are making to the tool lines.  Meier looks committed and the product is finally showing that.  Pentair is committed - they will straighten out Delta's quality problems.  Atlas Copco is committed to Milwaukee - look at the new router they have launched.  Bosch is committed to Skil and their sister Bosch products.  All of these holding companies are industrial products firms and understand tools.  Unfortunately, Black & Decker is no longer an industrial products company but is a consumer products firm.  That means if the price is right and they can add another appliance firm (like the GE purchase 10 years ago) they will and sell tools if it makes sense.  Their committment is not to industrial products but the fast paced consumer products world.

2. 
   sschefer | May 01, 2002 09:52pm | #17

   Mergers and Aqusitions, how confusing they can be. Do you have an inside track on this information or are you just digging around the net. I've been diggin and the whole thing seems a bit elusive. No SEC filings, etc. Seems to me that with the formation of the holding company, they would have been required to report something. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places.Steve - in Northern California

3. 
   ETG | May 02, 2002 04:31pm | #18

   Steve:

   I sent you an email direct but I was doing so in the middle of a bad storm and I did lose the net for a while - let me know if you got the email - if not, I'll resend.

   Ed Gregg

4. 
   sschefer | May 02, 2002 05:22pm | #19

   Doesn't look like it made it Ed. Steve - in Northern California

5. 
   sschefer | May 03, 2002 11:48pm | #21

   Ed thanks for the email, you're definitely the qualified expert! Have a nice weekend.

   Steve - in Northern California

   Edited 5/3/2002 4:49:23 PM ET by Steve Schefer

6. 
   ETG | May 06, 2002 02:13am | #24

   Steve:

   A nice compliment but I'm no more an expert than the rest of the good folks who trade info on this site.  I still on a steep learning curve - the more I learn about tools/woodworking, the more questions I have and the more I listen, read and research!

7. 
   sschefer | May 06, 2002 07:53am | #25

   Ed... the more I learn the more I realize how little I know...Steve - in Northern California

8. 
   MikeK50 | May 12, 2002 09:13pm | #26

   DITTO!!

9. 
   jeffn7 | May 03, 2002 01:07am | #20

   the SEC regulates publicly traded US companies. In this case, the investors are Swiss (AG is an abbreviation for Aktiengesellschaft, a type of corporation in Switzerland... the other is GmbH) and due to their status as a private company, not regulated by the typical agencies.

   for information on companies, try:

   http://www.hoovers.com

   http://www.thedeal.com

2. 
   kjwells54 | May 04, 2002 08:06pm | #22

   Thanks for the history. Its good to know that Jet is not running the PM show (no dig intended on Jet, its just that there is no conflict of interest). I agree that the older equipment appears to be better built and am going to research the used equipment market before making my final purchase. Basically, I am trying to eliminate buying a machine with little nagging problems. I was on a Delta customer web site and it seemed like the new Delta Unisaws have problems with attaching the fence and other fit problems. The customers were able to fix the problems but thats not the point--they should receive a machine that can be assembled without resorting to drilling and filing to mount the parts.