Replies

1. 
   user-148830 | Mar 09, 2007 08:44pm | #1

   Hey Joe,

   Well son, get back into the game and show em what you’re made of. I love coach speak.

   It could be a bunch of problems. Let’s start first with your white wood. If it’s very soft, your job just got exponentially more difficult. Soft woods like pine or alder or hemlock or spruce, god
   spruce is so spongy, are actually more difficult to cut cleanly without massive blow out and furry results like you had. So first your chisels have to be razor sharp.

   What I have found improves my cutting is to strop my edges on a leather strop with a honing compound after my honing up to a 6000 grit water stone. I use some pink stuff called Herb’s Yellow Stone. Don’t know if you can find that stuff, but some kind of final stropping compound will take your edge to a new level. Try some.

   When you think your edge is done, take it to a piece of this white wood clamped in a vise. Try shaving off a curl of end grain. With a sharp edge you should be able to do this. If your tools aren’t sharp enough to do this then your chopping will be a labor and the results not so good.

   Another issue that new dovetailers often overlook is that they’re trying to cut precise dovetails for the first time in massively thick material. Give yourself a break. Cut some dovetails in ½" or
   3/8" stock. It’s so much simpler.

   Finally, don’t cut away any of the waste wood in the pin sockets after making your tail cuts. Leave it all behind and start your chopping on your gauge line. Then after a few chopping passes make a clean up cut from the outside of the board and pop off this waste piece. By leaving some wood behind it will help to support a cut made in soft stock. Chop from both faces in towards the middle too. Some blow-out in soft stock is to be expected, but these items will help your results.

   The last option, if all these options just cause more looks to the bench, is to cope or band saw away the waste very close to your gauge line. Then using your razor sharp chisel, just pare the
   wood away, no chopping!

   Good luck. We're counting on you. Coach R

1. 
   Joe Sullivan | Mar 10, 2007 01:05am | #2

   Thanks, coach.  I needed that.  I'll "go the the well" and see if I can pull up enough to make it happen.

   In fact, it was reassuring to hear that the "white wood" whatever it was could be part of the problem.  I have kept running your 5-minute drills, and things are getting better.  However, the wood is spongy and gives to the chisel point. I went with sharper tools and the results were much better, but still furry.  I also did pretty much as you said just now in starting at the line, and results also got much better.  My nine-year old (who watched your video with me) no longer laughs at me. That is a big relief.

   However, my chisels are not pulling plane-style shavings on end grain, so based on what you said, it is back to the sharpening stand with them.

   My thought was that it was a good idea to use cheap construction timber to learn to hand cut tails.  It is starting to look as though if I can master that, the good wood should be much easier.  Kind of like building muscle and endurance by running with leg and hand weights, eh coach?  Or  should I go ahead and mess up come good wood?

1. 
   user-148830 | Mar 12, 2007 09:48pm | #3

   Joe,
   It’s time to take off the gloves, get in the game, show em what you’re made of, it’s show time. I may be running out of sports platitudes, oh, yeah, there’s no I in team. Oops, wrong speech. Number one, I’d go buy a piece of 1x12 pine. Every day, every day, go out to the shop and make practice tail cuts with your dovetail saw on this pine. Mark a gauge line or pencil in a gauge line as you wish across the face of the board. Practice sawing all the way across the full width of this board. Try to make all these tails the same size and the pin sockets the same size. You will be practicing your sawing, sawing straight, sawing straight at an angle, and measuring by eye. Cut a full set of tails, lop em off and do it again the next day. Practice, practice, practice, it’s the only way to get to Wrigley Field. Now as for sharpening, you will truly find that a 6000 grit stone followed by stropping will greatly improve your edge. I hollow grind, start honing on a 1200 grit stone and then bounce up to my 6000. I put on a microbevel raising up the edge of the tool about 5° to put on this very short angle and then flatten the back edge. Do the same thing on your strop and you’ll likely go in the first round if you have a big game. Try some thin stock harder wood as well. You've earned your playing time riding the pines. Best of luck. Coach G

1. 
   Joe Sullivan | Mar 12, 2007 10:05pm | #4

   I'll do it.

   Thanks.

2. 
   picapiedra | Mar 13, 2007 06:53pm | #5

   Hi Gary,

   I just read the communication you had with Joe, and I've been experiencing the same thing.   I have a backsaw that makes quite a thick cut, and I used softwood as well.  I was thinking on buying a dozuki saw and a guide for the dovetail.    Shall I resharpen my current tool or shall I buy an appropiate cutting saw?

   Thanks,

   Mauricio

1. 
   user-148830 | Mar 14, 2007 12:23am | #6

   Mauricio,
   Check your saw teeth first. If they're filed straight across then you are using a rip saw. But if they're filed at an angle, then you using a crosscut saw, which is probably more likely. Crosscut saws always have more set to the teeth leaving a bigger kerf. If you resharpen your saw, you could take out every other tooth and file your teeth straight across, turning your crosscut saw into a rip saw.
   Lotta work.Go buy a dozuki, one with a replaceable blade, and practice as I advised Joe. You can get good at this stuff only if you practice. And practicing in the shop is the fun part. Good luck. Gary

2. 
   picapiedra | Mar 14, 2007 03:56pm | #7

   Thanks!  I'll follow your advice!

3. 
   Joe Sullivan | Mar 17, 2007 03:31am | #8

   I have been following the coach's drill a few nights a week. Things are getting better, although no one would mistake me for a master. It is fun to see genuine progress, though.One question for Gary if he looks in again, though:Gary:I have a great deal of white oak, some not yet cured. WIll be working with that for years. Are there any special perils or tricks to dovetailing and mortising dry white oak?Joe

4. 
   user-148830 | Mar 21, 2007 07:03pm | #9

   Hi Joe,
   No perils to dry white oak. Other than your chisel edges looking like you've been banging them on concrete. Seriously, you need to increase the honing angle on your chisels to maybe 30 degrees with a 5 degree microbevel. This will make them harder to push but they'll hold up better. And if your tool steel isn't good, then no high angle will help them. Best of luck. Bend your knees, follow through, visualize success. Last words of advice during the time-out. Sincerely,
   Gary

5. 
   Joe Sullivan | Mar 21, 2007 07:06pm | #10

   Thanks, Coach.

    

   J

6. 
   picapiedra | Apr 07, 2007 11:26am | #11

   I just bought the japanese saw.  It´s great!  My cuts are way clean and the kerf is really narrow.   A good tool also makes a big difference!

7. 
   Joe Sullivan | Apr 07, 2007 05:29pm | #12

   Cool.  I also upgraded saws.  I found a pair of pre-owned L-N gents saws, one rip, the other crosscut, at a very attractive discount from new prices.  They cut a very fine kerf, and it does make a difference.

    

   Joe

8. 
   Joe Sullivan | Apr 07, 2007 05:37pm | #13

   Ok, coach, another question. 

   My tails are getting cleaner and better by far, and are reasonably snug.  However, despite clearly and carefully marking the line, and carefully chiseling at the line, I find that I usually have a gap on one side or the other when I fit the pieces together.    Is the chisel itself pushing back behind the line?  For chopping, should I set the chisel some distance in front of the line and then pare back as necessary?

   Still working pine.

   Cheers and thanks

   Joe

9. 
   user-148830 | Apr 10, 2007 06:55pm | #14

   Joe,
   Pine is tough to work, cleanly. That's the key, working it cleanly. It's so soft your tools needs to be super sharp and you need to pay attention to those details you mention: staying on your line and not pushing into them, which in pine will show right up. Remember that your chisel cuts not just by virtue of its sharpness, but also because of a wedging action. Look at it. It's a simple machine: a wedge. And this wedge works by pushing away weak fibers with the bevel of the tool. What also happens when you're chopping is that it moves into the wood as it's wedging it apart. That's one of the reasons that you're seeing gaps in your work. Try it on a piece of scrap. Mark a line, set the chisel off it by a bit, and then whack your chisel hard. It will move towards the line as it goes in. Now I know of one very good woodworker name of Chris Becksvoort who sets his chisel off his line and chops down hard, thus moving the chisel back to it. And he's right on the mark most every time. I find that hard to do. I prefer to stay off the line, do the bulk of my chopping from both sides into the middle and then, with a freshly sharpened tool, chop right down on my line. If I'm close enough with my first cuts, the second cuts will stay right on the line, push away the short grain fibers with ease, and yield me a pretty nice cut, right on my gauge line. Good luck. Keep practicing. You'll get it.
   Gary

10. 
    Joe Sullivan | Apr 10, 2007 07:02pm | #15

    Thanks, Gary.  As with all motor skills no matter how simple, there is a knack you have to get before it works consistently.  I am getting closer.

    Joe

11. 
    user-148830 | Apr 11, 2007 05:40am | #16

    Joe,
    The simplest shot in basketball is the free throw. Nobody guarding you, the same distance and height every time. And yet most players struggle to hit 70%. They think about missing. One of my first Mastery students was a guy who wanted to learn how to cut dovetails well. So he built his kitchen with all hand cut dovetailed cabinets. Then he built all the drawers with hand cut dovetails. I asked him, after he was finished, how he laid his dovetails out. He said, I don't lay them out, I just cut them. You just shoot, you don't think. And the only way there is to practice. No short cuts to this. Have fun. Best, Gary

12. 
    Joe Sullivan | Apr 11, 2007 04:30pm | #17

    It makes perfect sense.  I play (or played basketball), shoot skeet, go ballroom dancing, fly fish, ride horses.  In all cases, the motor skills have to be absorbed to the non-thinking level.  The calculating part of the brain really screws up both the motor part and also the creative/design part.

    Joe