Hello,
Does anybody here have any experience with the “Precision Sharpening System”, or PSS1, from M-Power?
It seems like a very good deal (comparing with the price of stand-alone diamond stones plus jig), and a practical way of sharpening chisels and plane irons without too much fuss…Unfortunalty…cannot be used for scrapers at the same time…
Thanks.
Replies
I ain't familiar with it. I use the scarey sharp methodology, which is translatable from plane blades to scraper blades. This methodology has been around for at least 20 years now. It is commonly acknbowledged by users as one of the most economical systems, at least as economical as it is practical, as it is as utilitatiran on site as it is in the shop.
I used it today, to sharpen everything from 5 1/2's 90's , skew rabbets, block planes of every sort and indeed scraper blades. Methinks it was close to 15 planes in total, 10 scrapers
My cost was maybe 20 cents if you pushed me on it, but really I just bundled up the sandpaper and put it back on the shelf. I didn't have to toss more than a few sheets of "already used" paper out.
Oh did I mention that I also scoured the bottoms and sides of maybe 5 planes which were new to me and needed rehabbing.
I suppose the "stand alone diamond jig plus stones" might be one way to go if you can afford it. OTOH, you may just plug "scarey sharp" into yer googliator and see what comes up wheaupon you will no doubt cogitate on the substantial cost differential between marketed sharpening systems and the scarey sharp methodology.
Make yur own decisions....I made mine about a decade ago and ain't looked back since.
Eric in Cowtown
It seems that by the time you buy the multitude of sandpaper grits that are needed (and that potentially many times over a few years), glass plate or granite slab, plus a necessary jig to hold the blades at the right angle, you're almost right up there at the same type of cost and with, seemingly, more effort and hassle. I'll figure this out, but thanks for mentioning that method. I'm trying to find the best method while keeping as low a cost as possible (including in the long run) and minimizing the time spent cajoling tools and maximizing the time spent making things, which is pretty scarce.
Have you looked at this system?
http://www.tormek.com
It's expensive to start with because of the various jigs for various tools, but the edge it gives is surgically sharp. You remove very little metal each time so tools, particularly small chisels last much longer. Also because it uses water there is no danger of sparks and fires in woodchips. Good for the insurance!
J
ah, it's unfortunately far, far beyond my means...
I purchased one of these. I haven't been very happy with it for plane blades which is what I purchased it for. The stones are small and the blade only contacts a small area of the stones which makes me think it will wear out quickly in that one area. The design of the carrier makes it very hard to modulate the pressure between the iron and the stones and, IMO, near impossible to make lighter passes on the fine stone. It also only sharpen's 25° and 30° bevels.
Overall I'd say it wasn't what it claims to be. It's one of those "miracle devices" that a sales rep at a trade show can make look easy and effective in a controlled environment but once you get it home it fails to perform.
I've been much happier with a 8" DMT 325/1200 duo-stone for re-edging and a fine waterstone for polishing, using a Veritas honing guide for angles. Together these cost about 2x the M-power system but will last a long time, has more flexibility and side by side produces a better edge.
The only thing I now use the M-power device for is chisels and only because it's easier to align a narrow chisel perpendicular to the stone surface than it is with my honing guide and since it cost $75 I figure I better use it for something. I also don't really do any precision chisel work so I don't need them "crazy sharp".
Thanks! That's exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for on this thing. I was also concerned byt he size of the stone and the fact that on top of that only a narrow area of the would be used. Spending 2x much is not an option though, but there are still enough options available...
Take a look at waterstones. You could get 3 waterstones and a honing guide for close to $75. You'll spend more time keeping them flat than a diamond, but you can add that later when budget allows. Having spend a little too much money on sharpening tools lately I have to say that waterstones have a lot of bang for the buck if you're ok with flattening.I spent 20 minutes chatting with a salesman at Japan Woodworker which is dangerously close to my home, and settled on this "system" for about $275 after several trips back and forth and a lot of reading. A Veritas Sharpening System.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=33001&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1an 8" x 3" 150 grit solid diamond DMT for grinding new bevels (instead of a bench grinder, I prefer slow and by hand over a machine)
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=45.769.2&dept_id=13103
was $65 purchased at the store.a 325/1200 8" DMT two-sided stone for general use.
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=45.018.2&dept_id=13103a #12000 Kitayama Super Polishing Water Stone for finishing.
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=01.099.10&dept_id=13118I flatten the waterstone on 220 wet/dry paper on a 24" x 4" granite countertop scrap I picked up for $5 at a salvage yard. Everything is lubricated and washed with good old tap water and the granite slap bridges the width of my shop/laundry sink so clean-up is a breeze. I work right over the sink. If I had to do it over on a budget I'd go with all waterstones. The diamond plates are fast, long lasting and don't require flattening but they are a expensive. i just don't like oilstones myself.
Edited 3/7/2006 7:26 pm by Elliott Aldrich
Thanks for the tips and links. Will look into these different options.
Don't forget the time value of money. Money spent now is worth more than money you spend in the future. Even if ten years from now the total expenditure from the scry sharp method is the same as the system you're looking at, the actual cost to you would be much less.
While I agree with what you are saying on spending money now versus later, I think the premise that the sand paper method will cost me less money upfront is not true. After looking into it, checking out the price of sand paper, the number of different grits I'll need for the method to work, and probably the amount of sheets that will be required over just the first few weeks (short term) to keep chisels and a few planes/scrapers sharp after I start *really* using them, added to that the hassle of having to find a flat piece of glass (not easy to find those things around here) or find/buy some flat slab of granite, while it probably won't cost 75 dollars, will not be that cheap either...After looking into this for the past few hours I think I found my starting solution. I don't really need to do any real coarse work from the start, so I think I will start with one of the dual sided EZE-LAP stones with 600/1200 grit sides, an inexpensive jig to get the bevel right, and go from there. Cheaper than my initial idea and then I can add stones for extra grits if I feel the need for it.
I use the scary sharp method and have found you only need three grits (I use 400, 800, and 2000 wet/dry sand paper), which can be had at Walmart for under ten dollars. This should be enough to last you a couple of years unless you set out to really abuse your tools. Contrary to what most say, all glass is now made using the float method. I picked up an odd size piece from the local glazier for $5.00. It's as flat as my straight edge. I do also use the Veritas MKII sharpening jig, but others do it freehand.I'm not trying to sell you on my method. Use what you feel best about. But I want to make sure you're not overestimating the initial costs.
The way you're starting is going to work well and as you said, you can add stones as you go. However, I don't know how many sheets of sandpaper you're thinking about to make that a more expensive method. If someone uses 220, 600, 1200, 2500 and maybe one finer grit paper, most of them can be found for $.49 per sheet. I got a pack of self adhesive sheets (small ones) at Rockler and they were 1200, 2500 and I think, 4000 grit- cost about $7, IIRC. My 18" granite tile was $15.95 at a building supply liquidator and my honing guide was $12. If I have $45 into everything I have and have used, I would be surprised. Oh, yeah- I bought a few packs of emery cloth sheets at 3 sheets/$2.95 for heavy rust removal and initial flattening of planes. So far, I have flattened a block plane, a #4, a #7, a #40 scub, a #80 scraper, a #75 rabbet (and the Millers Falls equivalent) and cleaned up all of the chipbreakers, lever caps, sides and honed all of the irons, plus the iron and chipbreaker for a wooden coffin plane. I still have a lot of paper left over and won't run out very soon. Once the irons are sharpened and honed initially with the coarser grits, touching them up only takes a few passes on the fine paper. The main thing to watch on water stones is their tendency to wear and if not flattened religiously, whatever edge is being honed won't be absolutely straight. OTOH, with the recommendation that the edge of most irons be curved slightly, it's not the end of the world, is it? For jointing boards, it's critical, but for the face, total flatness is like a holy grail.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Thanks. Have no doubt, I'll be thinking this over until the very minute when I will be actually buying something, so it can still evolve, even though going for the reversible stone (diamond, so no issue with flatness and no watery mess) seems to be the way that makes me most comfortable right now. The fastest and best way I can keep my tools performing right without spending too much is best for me. The process is really not important but how much time I can dedicate to the actual woodworking and the amount of guess-work that I can get rid of in the process.
Actually, the water isn't very messy since not much is needed. I'll be making a tray for mine, but at 18", it'll be better than the original 12" tile I bought (for $6). I would wear a mask if honing dry since the dust is super fine. Re: honing guides- the Eclpise guide (~$14, silver paint or powdercoat) holds the blade by the side edges and works for 2 3/8" on down to <1/4". It also has a smaller roller so rocking it to add a bit of curvature to the iron is possible, unlike anything with a roller that's wider than the guide width. I saw quite a few of these guides used at the WoodWorking show last month, including at the Lie-Nielsen booth. It works well, it's cheap, you can add camber and is available all over- what's not to like?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
It looks like the Eclipse guide is not made anymore...Is it the same as this one?http://woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=3114
That's the one. They also have it on the Lie-Nielsen site. Rockler sells it, etc. I see it all over the 'net.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
In the case of water stones, which single (dual sided) stone would be the most useful to start with. Norton has 220/1000 and 1000/4000. I do not expect to have any big/coarse work or fixing to do from the start, just keeping things sharp and flat. I bought a set of chisels that the previous owner sharpened extremely well, and the planes and scrapers will be clean also to start with, although will need sharpening.
For what its worth...
I started with a 1000/4000 stone. It did a decent job. But I had trouble keeping it flat, as I had nothing to flatten it against... In the end I bought a second stone 1000 grit. I used it to flaten the other stone. Of course there are lots of ways to flatten a stone, I choose this method as I planned to 'upgrade' my fine grit stone anyway.
I now use two 1000 grit stones and an 8000 grit. I flatten the the stones by rubbing the faces against each other. I believe that this is the method Rob Cosman uses.
If your blades are already in good condition, I'd go for the 1000/4000 grit. Norton is a good brand of stone. I'd look into getting a honing guide as well, they run from $10 - $$$$...
Good luck.
Based on all the feedback from the helpful people here and my research, and what I felt I'd be comfortable with, I did place an order a couple hours ago for the 1000/4000 norton stone, a honing guide (the one we discussed earlier), and other things I'd need such as a good file etc.I think that was the way to go for me. I figured I will probably need a way to flatten the stone after a while based on what I read so I'll look at my options then, which will probably be to buy a second stone, or dual sided stone with extra grits based on what I will figure I need, either coarser of finer. So thanks everyone for the feedback and great tips and info.
Yep, LeChuck really could be right. After all what he said was based on a careful analysis. Scarey sharp seems to be so horrendously expensive that only the best woodworkers can afford to use it. I shall hopefully be paying through the nose to use it for it the rest of my life. Eric
My first post was to ask information and feedback about the PSS. I don't see the point in arguing over methods.
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