I have a question about squares. I have always in the past used a carpenters speed square when checking for squareness and Miter angle (45). I have been reading that this is not the best tool since it may have a low accuracy tolerance. I visited my local wood crafters today and noticed a variety of squares with greatly varying cost. I know the reputation of Starrett squares, but they are very expensive. I looked at the Incra squares and they are pricey but look very beefy. I also noticed Starrett combination squares. Would it be better to get the seperate 90 & 45 squares, or get a combination square? Input appreciated.
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Replies
bones,
Get them all. That's what I did. I have a Starrett combination square, two try squares, an engineers' try square, a Stanley Odd Jobs, and one of those Japanese squares with a long hook base and both ninety degree and forty-five degree sides.
Excessive? Maybe. In my own defense, I didn't buy them all. Some were presents, a couple were door prizes, and I inherited one or two.
I use all my squares from time to time. I find useful things for all of them to do. But the one I reach for most often is my Starrett combination square. I keep checking it, expecting it someday to go out of kilter, but so far it's right on the dot. With the primitive tools and ability I have for checking such things, the Starrett is as accurate as my engineers' square.
Alan
FWW did an article on combination squares in 2002; you can probably find it on-line or in the archives of Knots. I have a Starrett combination 12", 6", hook rule (excellent buy!!), and a 12" bench square. Since acquiring these (two gifts, two e-bay purchases) I gave my other squares to my son-in-law. If you can afford it, buy the best.Dan T.
The one serious conviction that a man should have is that nothing is to be taken too seriously.
Nicholas Butler (1862 - 1947)
Get one good square like a Starrett combination or machinist's square and use it to check and tune up all of the other squares. Keep the good one in a drawer and only bring it out for testing, never use it for day to day work.
Even good quality squares go off from the banging around they get in the shop, so after a while they can't be trusted either. By having one pampered square you'll always have a quick reference for checking the other tools. This is how it is done in machine shops and it's the only way to guarantee accuracy.
John W.
Edited 4/2/2004 6:06 pm ET by JohnW
Edited 4/2/2004 7:27 pm ET by JohnW
Amen to checking the squares. I just retired my favorite two squares. Maybe favorite because I learned with them and inherited them from my father.
When I compared all the squares and drafting triangles, they agreed except these two old units, and those two were off about the amount that I found my last joints off.
My wife wants me to build a display case for them. I was thinking more of a burial.
________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
Charlie,
If the squares are still solid, that is there isn't any looseness between the stock and the blade, they can almost always be restored to good as new squareness fairly easily. What type of squares are they?
If you don't want to do the work yourself, I'll true them up for you, for no charge, if you'll ship them to my shop. Tools with that kind of heritage shouldn't be retired if they can be restored.
John W.
They are Stanley, made in USA, probably vintage 1940-42 (when my father came to the USA and got married). And they are in pretty tough shape.View Image
Thanks for your offer, but are you sure you want to make an offer like that? The shadow box may be the best solution!
The 6 inch square was what he gave me to play with as a toddler to keep me out of his hair as he worked... and I am now 61. So I know that they have had a rough life.
If there is a straightforward method (like shimming the brass on the handles), I am trainable.
________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
Charlie,
Unless you can remove the blades from the stock, those types of squares are a bit harder to restore than all metal ones but it still isn't all that difficult. The basic approach to restoring squares like the two you have would be as follows:
Presuming that the wood is solid and the brass faces are solidly attached, the first thing to do is to flatten one side of the wooden stock by rubbing it lightly on sandpaper that's lying on a flat surface. You don't have to remove every nick and gouge in the wood just get most of the surface flat. The smooth side of the stock will now be your reference surface for checking the squareness of the brass faces to the sides of the stock. You can also sand down the opposite side of the stock, but decide which side will be used as a reference surface and always use that side when truing up the brass faces.
If you place a straight edge on the trued up wooden side it should be parallel to the steel blade. If the blade isn't reasonably parallel, first check that the blade isn't bent where it comes out of the stock. If it is bent, it can usually be straightened by hand. If the blade is straight you may need to further sand the side to get it parallel to the surface of the blade.
Next you need to get the inside brass face flat and square to the sides of the wooden stock. Because you have to work into an inside corner, this is the hardest part of the job. If the inside face is heavily worn or damaged, the square may not be worth the time and trouble of trying to salvage it or it might at least need to have a new brass face attached.
To file the brass use a file with a safe edge, that is a file with no teeth on the narrow edges so you won't damage the steel blade as you file the brass. You can make a safe file by grinding off the sides of an ordinary file. Using the file is like hand planing, after a while you get a feel for it and you can get a very true surface. As you file, check your progress often with an accurate square. As you file don't overlook the two strips on either side of the blade, they need to be on the same plane as the rest of the brass surface
Once you get the inside face restored, you need to get the outside brass face flat, square to the reference side of the wooden stock, and parallel to the inside face you just finished. Because the blade isn't in the way, this is easier to do either with a file or by rubbing the brass across fine sandpaper on a flat surface. A test square will tell you when you are flat and at right angles to the stock, a dial caliper will be needed to check that the faces are parallel to each other down the length of the stock.
Once the stock has been trued up, squaring the two edges of the blade to the stock is relatively easy. The outside edge of the blade is easy, use a file like a plane and run it down the length of the blade, applying more pressure toward the end that needs to be brought down to square up the blade to the stock. The inside is a little harder to do because of the corner, but using a safe edge file it should only take a few minutes.
This sounds more complicated than it is in practice, usually a square can be trued up in just a few minutes. Your squares, being badly worn may take some time to square up but they are probably repairable.
Again, if you want to, send one or both to me and I'll clean them up for you.
John W.
Does anyone remember that James Krenov use a homemade wooden Hornbeam square. He says it is as square as any square needs to be.Dan T.
The one serious conviction that a man should have is that nothing is to be taken too seriously.
Nicholas Butler (1862 - 1947)
Dan,
You can make anything that isn't actively squirming around square. It's just a question of how long it will stay square and how far out of square it can go before the work suffers. Krenov's wooden square will work just fine as long as it is checked regularly and trued up when needed.
Krenov also did relatively simple pieces of furniture with almost all the joinery cut by hand. If a component was a bit out of square the piece it was joined to was cut to compensate, it's a perfectly legitimate and time honored way to build furniture. However if your cut your joinery on power tools and want to use all the accuracy that you paid for, then being decently square and having the tools to measure it is a good investment.
If you want to really get serious about squareness and reliability, even steel has it's limitations. Starrett will sell you squares made out of granite, a 9" by 12" weighs 23 pounds.
John W.
Edited 4/4/2004 6:47 pm ET by JohnW
bones,
Get good quality engineer square and miter square. Use them adjusting machinery and checking your other squares. Treat them like the holy grail! A good quality combination square can be used for lay-out and treated with great respect. Check it every time it's dropped using the engineer grade tools. Other squares as deemed necessary. One of my favorites is the tiny 2" adjustable square (Brown & Sharpe) that lives in a special flapped and velcroed pocket in my shop apron. Very handy and in use every time I prep. lumber. What the heck---get 'em all!! LOL
Regards,
Mack
"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
I have a bunch of drafting triangles. They seem to be about as clsoe as I can work.
I also have a framing square.
I second the motion on the drafting triagles. I would add and adjustable triangle to the inventory, such as the Stadler brand(German). Those this are amazingly accurate and cost around $15 to $25, depending on size.
Even the most expensive one is worthless after it's dropped on the concrete floor a few times and never calibrated.
Learn how to calibrate them and the Harbor Freight cheapos will also serve:
Tuning Squares and Levels
http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002085&p=
“When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think...that a time is to come when those (heirlooms) will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, ‘See! This our father did for us.’ “ --John Ruskin.
Bones,
Like many other posters, I have accumulated several layout tools over the years. When I'm doing rough framing, I'm happy with my speed square, framing square, chalk line and affordable combination square in my tool belt; they're suitable companions for my waffle-faced framing hammer and Skil saw.
When I'm working in the shop, I keep several precision layout tools at hand, including a 12" Starrett combination square, flexible Japanese carpenter's square (Daiku No Makigane), Bridge City Toolworks brass & rosewood try square, fractional dial calipers, marking knives, a precision engineers square, et al. However, the layout tool I reach for most often is a little 4" Starrett combination square that's always in my shop apron and is well-worn from frequent use.
The only tool purchases I've regretted over the years have been the ones that didn't prove useful; a sentiment I've never expressed with regard to my better tools. If you use your tools half as much as much as I do, I don't think you'll regret buying the best you can afford.
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
As I mentioned in another post somewhere, I just bought these two Starrett combo squares from MSC. Great price, 1-2 day delivery. http://www.mscdirect.com
item #
quantity to be shipped
back ordered quantity
your price
ext. price
86400454
1
0
$38.00
$38.00
Product Description:
Combination Squares - Type: Combination Square Set Number of Pieces: 2 Blade Length: 12 Graduation Style: 4R Graduation: 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64 Finish/Coating: Black Wrinkle
Shipping Detail:
UPS GROUND 2 DAYS from PA
86400595
1
0
$44.00
$44.00
Product Description:
Combination Squares - Type:Cast Square
Shipping Detail:
UPS GROUND 2 DAYS from PA
Thanks for the link. That price beats the **** out of $69. Cool place to browse as well.
bones
What would you consider a "reasonable" price for a steel machinist square within .0010 available in 2", 4", 6" or 9". If you need to be more precise than .0010 then dis-regard the question.
Regards...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
" What would you consider a "reasonable" price for a steel machinist square within .0010 available in 2", 4", 6" or 9". If you need to be more precise than .0010 then dis-regard the question.
I can't answer that question because until recently, I did not know this was an issue. I assumed that square was square. I have made quite a few things, and a lot of times the miters would be off just a hair and now it makes sense.
I don't think I need to got to 10,000'ths, but I will be interested to see how far out my speed square really is. After reading on the subject, I decided to get something that could read 90's & 45's. This would be the two most common angles I would use as a hobbist. I saw the incra's and starretts and read the reviews. As allways, I am just trying to get the best bang for the buck. Thats why I was wondering if a combination square would be a good deal. Woodcrafters had a set with their name stamped on it (2",4", and 6") for $40.00. Those were 90's only. The Incra's were about 42 apiece, and the Starretts were 70 and up. I don't mind paying for a good tool. Maybe I should bite the bullet and get one of each.
Bones,
You only need one precision square as long as you take good care of it and only use it to check the other squares you use for shop work. All squares need to be tested and trued once in a while, not learning how to do this is like not knowing how to sharpen a plane blade, it's basic stuff but rarely covered in books.
For the money, a Starrett combination square would be a good tool, it has both 90 and 45 degrees and a long blade. In addition, Starrett will check and resquare it for you if it did get dropped. Get the less expensive model with the cast iron head rather than the steel version.
Once you have a test square, you can use files or stones to true up all of the other squares in the shop.
John W.
bones
The set you referred to at WoodCraft is Groz and made in India. A set of 3 (2"-4"-6") is $34.95 at Highland Hardware. They also sell them individually. The 6" is $14.99 and 4" $12.99, etc. I bought the set of three with wooden case, but not before I ask one of the Highland boy's to let me borrow their $259 Starrett machinist square from the locked case.
We tested 3 sets of the about 30 they had on display. The claim is to be within .003 square. Assuming the Starrett was indeed square, we didn't find one that deviated from the Starrett more than .002. That's not a great deal off.
I did the same thing with a Japanese mitre square for $8.99. Compared to the Starrett it was off .004. I find it tolerable enough for wood-working.
My bottom line conclusion is I would love to have a Starrett combination squre with the extras. But I have not accumulated all the cabinet clamps I need over a course of 31 years. Over 80 clamps and still always one short. Until I do get that situation nailed down, I will fore-go the Starrett and focus on clamps, planes, etc. that are missing from my line-up.
If I were a machinist, only the best and most accurate. But as a WW the cheap stuff without a world-class name will have to do. I know it's very close as I did my home-work. Off slightly, but nobody has noticed yet! ha.. ha...
Regards...
sarge..jt Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
So how square do you need your tools to be?
When I was a toolmaker ...
My 6" angle plate was flat and square within .0002." My 4" solid square was flat and square within .0001."
I made 8 tables & lowboys this year using a carpenters square. The square legs are out of square by up to 1/6" in the 2-1/2" width. Close enough.
In wood working "square" is a production work term.
My definition of out of square goes like this...
To hide where a shelf is dadoed into the sides of a bookcase (or equivalent) I like to cut a shallow rabbet in the end of the shelf wood, often with a RAS, trimming both sides to reduce the thickness of the shelf from 3/4 (or 23/32 or less) to 1/2 inch. I then make a 1/2 inch rabbet in the sides to receive the shelf. If all goes well, it looks like the tree grew with a shelf in it. But if the saw isn't perfectly square, the cut on the top and bottom of the shelf don't align, and the result looks really ugly. Since I always check square before doing those cuts (it is a RAS), I finally found why they sometimes worked perfectly, and other times... well, those are the squares I may retire.
The other precision point that often is challenged... My mortise and tenon joints were pretty sloppy - "fall out" loose, or "pound them in" tight. Then I got a digital caliper, and found that I could get a pretty consistent 1/128 inch on my table saw (even with a homemade tenon jig). Or in digital terms, roughly .01 inches. Even though the mortise and tenons may change size later, keeping them the same size to those tolerances when I am making them, makes beautiful joints.
So even though woodworking doesn't always require toolmaker tolerances, sometimes close tolerances really seems to help. ________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
Before you go crazy buying squares, you should know that for some jobs you have to go about it a different way. For example, if you're building a cross-cut sled to cut large panels square, there is no square you can buy that will get your fence perfectly square. Instead, you have to create the squareness yourself by cutting two test pieces and flipping them over. I mention this because I did just about go crazy trying to find a perfectly square large square, until I realized there isn't one and you can do the job easily yourself.
Same goes for setting a radial arm saw sqaure and similar tasks.
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