I have a client that would like me to build her some built-in cabinetry. It will be approximately 13 feet wide and nine feet tall with 24″ deep x 36″ high base cabinets with book cases up to the ceiling. The base cabinets will have a mixture of doors and drawers. This will be built out of most likely birch plywood and poplar face frames (Paint grade). I am trying to determine the cost of this based on the little bit of previous experience that I have. What is a ball park price for this type of cabinetry?
Thanks!
Replies
Jim ,
Pricing is determined by your area to some extent. Different areas of the country have market prices that may vary a bit . Ball park with out knowing all the details or particulars I would say between four thousand and five thousand dollars .The details make the difference , such as the drawer slides , any countertops , cabinet backs ,delivery and installation , crown molding also can be an up - charge .The door style and are the drawer fronts frame and panel ?
I hope this helps a bit , good luck dusty
Understand that most people out there are looking for something for nothing and they actually think they can beat HD or Lowes pricing by going to a custom shop. I got so tired of getting stroked for cabinet work estimates that I adopted the following strategy. I tell them to go to HD and avail themselves of the free design service to figure out what they want. I explain to them my material costs is higher than HD sells complete modular cabinets for so they need to triple the HD price and if they're still interested in custom cabinetry call me. So far I'm 0 for 4 on call-backs which puts me 4 x 20 hrs x $50 hr = $400 ahead which suits me just fine because I'd rather do furniture than boxes.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
Thats not necessairly a bad tack...However there may be a gentler way of approaching it...
I do some one off work for a designer lady. (probably not a pc description). She bills her uphoulsters at $75.00 per hr. When I bill her stuff at $50 she has a tendancy to spit up...(figure of speech)..She has not a clue of what it takes to build stuff...Maybe it would be best to change the way we sell stuff..Ie. x hours at x plus x for maaterials, rather than a price...
I also build high end pool cues, and its very difficult to sell a cue that takes 15 hrs for a lot more than minimum wage...The offshore guys build em with cnc stuff , and idiots, and the consumer doesnt have a clue what really goes into the job...
If someone has an answer I would like to hear it...
Looking at a five year old estimating reference for remodelers for the Kansas City area (definitely mid market) the basic prices NET for unfinished cabinets, installed, is:
Builder grade base: $171 /LF, upper:112 /lf
Premium grade base: $231 /lf, upper: $150 /lf
Top quality base: $290 /lf, upper: 187 /lf
Finishing costs add about 1/4 to 1/3 to the cost, and depend on the type of finish involved.
Lazy susans, pantries, islands and such are all extra.
If you're going to make thigs for money, it might be worth a couple hundred dollars to get a couple of different estimating guides for your area. They are only good for general reference, but they'll get you in the ball park. I have colleagues in the area who get up to $1,000 /lf for super quality custiom designed cabinetry, finished and installed.
Michael R.
20 years ago I did similar office grade cabinets for $100 a LF using stain grade mostly Oak plywood (central USA). Probably need to at least double that now. No great art involved in them - just wham bam thank ya mam kitchenette type cabinets with formica tops.
There were cabinet door manufacturers there that could make inset doors cheaper than I could buy the materials. I doubled the price of the doors to the customer cause I had to call them in, go get them, and hang them (and eat any screw ups in measurements).
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Sorry Woodwiz, that last msg was supposed to be posted to "ALL".
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
John,
Now that's tough love!! LOL I agree completely. I've never made my entire living @ WW but I did it as a supplemental income for a while. The reason it's a hobby only now is exactly what you pointed out. There's always one of two types bugging you;
A. Thinks you should work for minimum wage even though your skills might be one in a thousand.
B. Thinks that because you work with your hands, you're some how "second-class" and should do what ever they want because they're "better"
I realize that there's always:
C. Truly appreciates fine craftsmanship and materials. Willing to pay dearly for the small details that make a wooden piece approach fine art. They also may be one in a thousand.
I really admire you folks that can make a living @ ww and still enjoy it!! For me, I fear that doing any type of "production" ww would take all the fun out of it. I'll just be content with doing a piece here and there for family and friends. If someone sees one and wants me to make something and are willing to pay my price and wait until I see fit to finish then ok. If not, oh well!!
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
If they are just looking for run-of-the-mill cabinetry, I'd send them to a place that does that .......they'll get a better price and most likely, quicker service.
If they want high-end built-in and are willing to pay for it....as in raised panel doors with knife hinges....dovetailed drawers without metal slides......hardwood face frames....moldings...blah blah blah then I would consider taking the job on.
I've been told that you can take the price of the material and times it times 4, and this should give you the high end price. Most people times the material times 2 or don't get the job. The luck ones get as musch as material times 3. Good luck!
That formula MAY be applicable to a certain class of cabinetry or furniture but does not apply to truly custom (and high end) work. I have charged $10K for a piece when the materials cost as little as $400. It's all about creativity, labor, and service.
this is a very interesting topic to me, I hope it continues. as mentioned earlier, there are 2 types of customers, one who thinks you should be working for minimum wage, and the other who appreciates high end work. I find myself over the years becoming increasingly short tempered with the first group. I mean, if your buying a car or a TV you generally look at all aspects, quality, reliability, reputation, other peoples experiences etc. why don't these people do the same when they are looking for cabinetry?
I don't want to turn this into a discussion about bad clients, but it seems for ever good client who want quality and is willing to pay for it, there are 30 bad clients who want you to beat home depots prices because you have less overhead. what's up with that? I find I waste a lot of time with tire kickers who have a ridiculous price in their head and freak out when I tell them my price. maybe it has something to do with all of those "remodel your whole house for $20 in 8 hours" TV shows. I think I'm ranting.
Custom Cabinetry and Furniture
http://www.BartlettWoodworking.com
gecko ,
I know how you feel about the tire kickers. I have learned to pre - qualify most potential clients by asking them a few pointed questions. The response they give generally tells me if they are willing or even in the market for the type of work that I produce .As far as the 3 or 4 times material pricing , this in some cases can be used as a guide to move up or down depending on the particulars .IMHO the 3 or 4 times rule may be better suited to carpenter type of jobs . I know many professional wood workers and none that I know use that formula for cabinetry or furniture work .Most of us have formula based on footage , say based on Red Oak pricing as a middle ground . Then factoring up grade cost say for Cherry or White Maple . I charge per door and per drawer on top of the footage prices .Also door style and type of drawer systems . I try and not waste much time with any DIY types as they are not my market . Nor are the ones that say they want good quality but a lower end price , that does not happen the way I see it . A person can take a $10.00 piece of material and spend 100 hours or so carving a masterpiece , so the rule will not always apply.Furniture is much more difficult to bid accurately , as opposed to basic case work .The materials are not that much more but the time may be double . We need to be paid for our design and engineering time we put in .On more than one occasion I have spent as much time thinking and planning as building the piece .Bidding is an art that largely is trial and error , there is no one answer for all . As a professional we have paid our dues if you will , and deserve to be paid what we are worth .Think about it , many a Doctor or attorney or other white collars earn 6 figures and more , but may not be able to do what we can , thus making our skills valuable .
dusty
I'm going to extend the rant about the "remodel your house for $20 in 8 hours" comment. I was watching one of those shows the other day. The designers were sitting around planning what "wonderful" creations "they" were going to "build". The host asks " how much is that going to run" the guy goes $75.00 for an occasional table . The other one chimes in for a big wall unit "oh mines going to be about $150 to $200."
They then show them making 3 cuts with a skill saw, a few brads and one stroke with a paint brush in 1.5 minutes.
Hmmm I wonder...
Am I pretty enough for TV?
Well , I am a bit late in this discussion, But all you have to sell is your TIME....And there are 2000 hours a year in saleable time.(40 hrs /week for 50 weeks) So the price should be your annual overhead plus how much you want to make a year divided by 2000,as rate per hour, plus materials, and their acquisition costs.The big thing is estimating how much time it is going to take you. You also have to assume that you are not going to bill 2000 hours a year, so you need to divide by some number less than 2000. Overhead is rent, comp, utilities truck etc. and amorization of equipment.
I have a client who is very reasonable guy. To enhance his kitchen remodel experience, I took him to the lumber yard where we selected the tiger maple for his kitchen cabinets, board by board. When we got home, I took him through the steps it takes to turn rough sawn lumber into cabinet grade material:
1. Put a clean edge on each side on the table saw;
2. Jointed one face to make it flat; (took about 10 passes). Showed him the tear-out.
3. Ran the board through the thickness planer; (many more passes, still with some tear-out)
4. Hit the board with the sander, starting with 120 grit through 220 grit (120, 150, 180, 220) (I'll probably use my drum sander for this step of the production process)
5. Wiped on some gel varnish to bring out the character of the wood. Sent the varnished piece home with him to show his wife. The architect saw the sample and send me a note saying how glad she is that I'm on the project.
Once people understand how much work, machinery and skill is involved in producing nay, revealing, the true beauty of the wood, they become wonderful clients who will not only pay for the privelidge of having such beautiful material in their homes, but also become active partners in the process.
Communication is the key.
Lofton,
I have done similar things with clients to get them more involved in the design process. A visit to the shop; laying out a non-critical radius on the end of a table so they can decide. Showing them several finishes. They do become good clients that way. Nice story.
AlanAlan
http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com
The only thing I'd add to that is 2,000 hours is too much. For an employee it might be the right number, but a business owner is going to spend at least 500 to 750 hours per year on non-billable work, such as giving presentations, sending out bills, doing marketing, and all that goes along with running a business. If you budgeted 1,500 for actual work you'd still end up working 2,500 hours for the year, I bet.
Of course, you are correct. I was speaking in general terms. If, perhaps, something you build is elaborate, requires a lot of time, or is a combination of these factors, notwithstanding the general rule that I posited in my previous post, you may adjust your cost appropriately. This, again, is merely a general rule, or starting point, if you will. It is, ultimately, up to the builder to put a value on what they have or will produce. Artistic value should certainly be considered and not underated or trivialized in any way!
Edited 5/10/2004 9:21 pm ET by Big Poppa
Sorry Big Poppa but I'm going to continue to disagree. The 4X "rule" is not a starting point or a general rule of thumb. Material costs, or an accurate estimate, is a starting place, because that is a real number. To suggest that one simply apply a factor of four is totally wrong. One's total cost shouldn't be "adusted" from an inaccurate estimate.
I don't know where you came up with your rule, but I have read it here on this forum in the past. I also am aware of first seeing it in a FWW article back in the 80"s when I was a relative beginner in the business. I made the mistake of trying to use it then and that gave me nothing but trouble. I couldn't reconcile how my time/cost reality was so out of sync with the "experts" advice in the magazine. Finally, I learned to trust myself and charge what I knew to be right. So the bottom line is, I believe, the rule you are proposing is misleading and harmful. This is especially so to someone (a beginner?) who is struggling to put a price tag on their work.
You state that the 4x rule is neither a starting point nor a general rule. And it may very well not be for you. And that is ok. But for most of my peers and myself the 4 x rule or variations thereof have been and continue to be an excellent starting point for us. You state that material cost or an accurate estimate is a starting place (an estimate, by the way, may or may not fluctuate and, therefore, affect accuracy depending on say the price of wood for example). Anyhow, I couldn't agree with you more. That is exactly what we take into consideration when we use the "rule" that works for us. It is a real number--the material cost--times 2, 3, or 4. Then we make adjustments from this real number equation for a variety of reasons (difficulty, time, fluctuation in lumber costs, etc.). I'm aware that one can't come up with an estimate in a vacuum. Everyone should consider the cost of materials, difficulty level, and time among other things when giving an estimate. I would imagine that it is fairly obvious to most anyone that the number is not set in stone. It is as close a approximation to the final cost prior to finalizing the cost with your client.
As far as where I came up with this "rule", it is common knowledge.I can't take the credit for it. Keep in mind though that this rule does not take into account pieces that are elaborate or extensive in time consumtion. This is where, to paraphrase you, one must trust in themselves and charge what they consider to be right for them . I'm sorry that it gave you nothing but trouble. Why you were so "out of sync with the experts" is beyond me.
Look, I'm not advocating that anyone use this rule. I was merely responding to a post and stated what worked for many of my peers as well as myself. Anyone who does work has to use what works for them. Everyone should do exactly what you advocate--trust in themselves and charge what they consider to be right for them. As far as it being harmful, I'm not quite sure as to what you consider harmful. But anyone who uses or attempts to use this rule and is harmed is doing so at his or her own risk. I am absolved of any guilt. (he he)
At http://www.cabinetmakingonline.com ( I think thats the address) Danny Proulx every year does a extensive priceing survey of actual projects accross the country and compares cost and gives you the actual price charged for the project. Try checking him out.
Darkworksite4:
El americano pasado hacia fuera ase la bandera
My mistake I checked and its http://www.cabinetmakeronline.com I hopes this helps.
Darkworksite4:
El americano pasado hacia fuera ase la bandera
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