I would like to ask for help concerning a topic/question regarding pricing. I know there are all kinds of woodworkers, all over the world, and I don’t want to tick anyone off, but I would like to address this to people who sell their pieces for all or part of their income.
I have attached a photo(with fear and trembling) to show the type of work I am speaking of. If it finally attaches!!!
The problem is, I have been asked by my rep and some designers to lower my prices to deal with the pricing pressure that exists due to the “Chinese Knock-off Market” (please no race stuff not intended just what they are “dealing” with).
HighPoint, NC , Laguna and Vegas say there is a “niche market” for American Made, but it too is very price sensitive. Imagine a niche market in our own country (not the topic).
Anyway, what I would like to hear is what any of you are doing. As an artist/maker are you standing firm or adjusting. I know that price is complicated and I don’t want numbers just your point of view.
I am not posting this the argue the world economic situation or even the plight of the American Furniture Industry over the past decade. I just want to know how are you dealing with this situation.
Thank You
Coach B
ps for attachment see pricing pressure 2
I followed the instructions for attaching…oh well…try this?
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=36854.1
Edited 7/17/2007 8:42 pm ET by CoachB
Edited 7/17/2007 8:44 pm ET by CoachB
Edited 7/17/2007 8:46 pm ET by CoachB
Edited 7/17/2007 8:54 pm ET by CoachB
Edited 7/18/2007 5:20 pm ET by CoachB
Edited 7/18/2007 5:23 pm ET by CoachB
Edited 7/18/2007 5:24 pm ET by CoachB
Edited 7/18/2007 5:26 pm ET by CoachB
Edited 7/18/2007 5:26 pm ET by CoachB
Replies
I suppose if there are other designer/makers in your area, then they could possibly be your competition. I could care less what a piece from China or Mexico goes for. If that is what they want then by all means go and get it.
I just set my price according to what I have in a piece. Unless it is somewhat unusual or a particularly challenging design then I add some more $ for the better/unique designs.
I don't really haggle about price. I just tell the customer that this is what it costs and let them decide. They are more than welcome to get other bids or just say no.
I do however educate them about the construction techniques I use and grain matching techniques for glue ups and so on.
I have found it better to set the price and then let the customer decide. If you come down, then most folks see that as a weakness and will try and exploit it to its fullest potential. Of course that is all part of the business. However if they say "Well Jack only wants $x.xx for the same piece." I tell them go see Jack then.
I have only changed my pricing for two customers and only because they were repeat business and steady business as well.
J.P.
JP I know this is going off topic but how do you make the sides of that Bombay chest? Are those steam bent?
Thanks,
They are sawn from a solid piece 3" thick. I laid out the curve on the edge of the piece then cut kerf marks abou 1/16" from the line and used a chisel to break off the blocks and faired it all in with planes,spokeshaves and scrapers.I'll look for some photos of the process if you are interested.J.P.
I would be interested in that. Every time I see a chest like that I ask myself the same question. I thought maybe it was a veneer trick or something. Yours is one of the best designs I have ever seen.
Thanks,
It may take a while for me to dig up the photos.Here's a link to the process on the SAPFM website.http://www.sapfm.org/eInterview/davis/splash.htmlJ.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
Thanx,
Do you ever build on speculation into galleries or showrooms? I understand working for commission this speculation side is new. You are exactly right when working in that enviornment.
appreciate the input
Coach B
Yes I have had pieces in a gallery. And no, I did not lower my price. It is up to the gallery owner to sell the piece. You need to give them all the pertinent information as to how it is made and what makes it unique. The reason you pay commission to someone is for them to sell your furniture.If the only response from the rep/owner is to lower your price then I suggest you look around for better representation or ask the owner what is selling. Then you can possibly tailor some pieces for that specific market and hopefully sell something.It's a two way street. The rep needs to give feedback on who is looking at what and just what it is that is selling. However that does not mean that your pricing structure is wrong. Possibly you are in the wrong spot or even the wrong market.I would wait it out. How long have your pieces been in the gallery? Also how long have they been there before the rep asked you to lower the price?Also you should ask the gallery what are they doing to market the work. Do you see ads in the local papers? Do they regularly schedule openings featuring new work?There is more to this story. If you could fill in a little more information as to the gallery location and what their inventory is then that may help formulate a better answer.Good question regardless.J.P.
Great response...I am feeling better the more I read...this will be our second year in Vegas and last year the rep firm sold squat...we have been holding on being new to this type of work..(15years straight on commissioned customs).
You and the other responders are echoing our gut feelings but I try not to jump without checking first.
You have been a great help
Nice websie...I am considering moving from Calif to Tenn...somewhere around the Bristol area. I know a lot of good woodworking goes on in your part of the country, but I can't find wood sources close on WoodFinder.
Will I have a problem or will I have to bring it in from Ohio or somewhere?
Thanx
Coach B
I don't know too much about the Bristol area. My wife is from Knoxville TN so the most I know about Bristol is driving through on 81. They do have a NASCAR race there too, if your into that sort of thing.As far as your work is concerned. It appears to be a little more traditional. That type of work will sell better when it is in a gallery with similar work. If the gallery has a mix of contemporary and traditional pieces, most folks look past the traditional pieces because they seem to be familiar. If a piece is more unique or of an original design, that seems to draw more attention in the gallery setting. It's hard to say without seeing the space and their inventory and how it is displayed.Anyway hold on to your price.J.P.
Be very careful about dropping your prices. I had a designer ask me to lower a price quite a few yrs ago. I told them I would lower my price if they would lower their percentage markup. Neither of us would budge on our stance and I no longer do work with this designer.
I really don't understand their thinking, you should not be even close to competing with Import furniture on price or the quality issue. Better yet, ask your rep and designer why they aren't pushing your work moreso than the import pieces. I know it's tough. Availability and pricing are hard to overcome. Maybe you need to do a better job of selling yourself.
Pricing is always an issue, even for those with virtually unlimited funds. So I try to give what can't be bought at a furniture store, a unique piece especially made for that individual.
Try to convince your rep and designers that they need to believe in what you do. If they believe that, they will convince their client to spend that extra and wait for a special piece.
Just a few ramblings from my 30+ yrs repairing and making furniture.
Yours is a very interesting question.
Most around here are likely to say "my price is my price is my price", but I don't think it is always as simple as that.
I don't know anything about the nature of your work, but I am guessing it is close enough to production work (as opposed to completely unique, one-of-a-kind pieces) that your clients are able to buy reasonably similar pieces from off-shore producers.
If so, I think you have basically two choices.
First, you could do what the big corporations do: rigorously examine every cost cutting measure available to you -- in terms of materials, techniques you are presently using, etc. Maybe it's time to invest in that $25M CNC machine if it means a huge jump in productivity for you.
Second, you could concede defeat to the mass producers, and shift your efforts to another niche; this can be very difficult unless you are both perceptive and aggressive about marketing your wares.
I think you're in a tough spot, and the only advice I feel completely comfortable in offering is don't stand still.
Good luck.................
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I am talking about one of a kind heirloom stuff that I am selling on speculation into showrooms, galleries and through a rep .....and your dead on I am in a tuff spot...it takes quite awhile to get your money back.
Is it possible for a designer to draw a furniture design and have 1 or a pair made for them in China or Mexico in some reasonable time frame with expectations of consistent custom quality similar to yours? Unless they can do that, what is happening to prices of factory furniture shouldn't have a heck of a lot of difference on prices for high end custom furniture, and you have some clients wanting to play games.
CoachB,
I'm a part timer. And I don't deal with designers. There's lot more experianced folks here who know more about this that I do.. But here's my $0.02 on the issue.
When a customer says that my price (on a kitchen for example) is too high for them, and asks about lowering the price, my answer is... I charge based on the work and materials they chose. I charge a very fair price per hour, and I don't control the cost of materials. So if the cost is above their budget, lets look at different material, or change the design. I basically tell them they are setting the price, not me, based on the work they chose to have done. I might suggest saving $$ by dovetailing only the front of the drawers, and dattoing the backs, or choosing a different wood.
I don't lower my prices to get the job. I reduce the work to fit their price range. But I make it clear to the customer that I will not do low quallity work to get their price, or use poor quallity materials. Only reduce the amount of work.
Nikkiwood had a good point. You may not need to spend 25K on a new CNC machine. But if you feel your buisness can be improved (price or profit) by investing in different equipment/methods/suppliers, it's worth thinking about.
Good luck,
GRW
GRW -
I'm my own designer, and I make the same points to prospective customers. During the first conversation with a prospective customer, I also ask them how much shopping they've already done and why they haven't just bought something. Their response guides the rest of the conversation.
If they haven't done much shopping, I tell them that they really should since I can't compete (pricewise) with a production operation. Most of these folks disappear, but a few have called back and were ready to accept the idea that custom work costs more.
Those who have done quite a bit of shopping are usually pre-sold on the idea that it's going to cost more to get what they want.
One of my all-time favorites was the guy who called and said that he wanted some cheap cabinets made and that he wanted them in a hurry. I immediately replied that I didn't make cheap cabinets because Home Depot and Ikea had already cornered that market so he should just go to them. There was a long silence and then he started laughing. We chatted for a few minutes about the differences between custom and production shops and he said that he would check Ikea.
I never heard from again, but a few months later I built an entertainment center for one of his friends. Apparently, I made quite an impression on him. - lol
Hey Coach B
Here's a track back to your piece:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=36854.1
And I'll second (or third) the opinions stating to not drop your prices due to import pressure. Unless imports are doing tansu work in tiger maple.... None that I've seen are doing that....
I think you've already received some very solid advice on your question. I don't agree with Nikkiwood's comments, but I don't believe she looked at your piece. You're clearly not in competition with the imports, so it's not fair to compare yourself to them.
Keep up the good work!
Glen
Thank you for your help and kind comments.
Coach,
I used to have an antique clock business. When I set up my tables at a show/sale, I would have one table of clocks with a sign on it, which said "Each clock on this table has been reduced by $3000".It is amazing how many people came up to me and asked how I could afford to do that.I told them it was easy. If I want/need $400 for the clock, I mark it $3400, and give you $3000 off. They would look puzzled. I got many responses along the line of: Isn't that dishonest?Of course, my response was, "How can it be dishonest if I tell you that is what I am doing?"Of course, at such shows/sales, most of the people just talk. The buyers are generally much more knowledgeable, and understand that I was just doing something to cause people to come and look at my wares.I am not sure exactly how this relates to your original question, but I wanted to say it anyway.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,I don't know if it's ever made it into your local laws, but there are some places that say you can't advertise "so much off" unless you actually sell at the higher prices. Just marking something at $3400, putting a line though it and writing NOW $400 can get you in trouble. Sort of like the "store closing sales" that go on for years and years.
H in H,
It was a long time ago (1970). I wouldn't think of doing such a thing now.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
You're right some of the larger retailers got their hands slapped and were told it's not alright to say 65% off or 65% off list price , it is more better to say 65% off of our everyday prices .
As you suggest , who has ever sold at the list price ?
dusty
Hi Coach B ,
I did see the photo and the piece certainly looks to be a fine example of what your capable of . Honestly can you mass produce that piece or one similar ?
( That would be like saying this new rep has a line of Maloof knock off rockers from Overseas, they are only $375.00 , there is no way in sweet heaven the two products will be the same .)
What volume of production may have much to do with an answer of price .
If you are making 500 pieces per order or if you are making 1 or 2 at a time will partly determine the price you can get .When you see a truck load of cabinets that look the same the perceived value may be different than if there is only one .
For custom work made to order the shipping and lead time to obtain the work from China would be prohibitive in reality especially for a single piece , it's hard enough sometimes communicating with our clients when they are in the same town .
Depending on your shops capacity there will be a limit to the volume of your production or the point of diminished return . Example : you can make and sell 1 piece for $1,000 and 5 pieces for $850 maybe 20 pieces at $750 at a certain point you will no longer realize any cost cuts past a certain amount normally .
Custom work made by a craftsman from start to finish imo can not be mass duplicated , a cheap facsimile yes , if the client really does not care about the real quality of a piece then as far as I am concerned we are not a good match , by it from the big box stores not from a custom maker .
I was taught when asked can it be done for less money to see how the design and components involved can be lessened , "would you like to finish that piece yourself Mrs. Smith ? we can change the door style or use Cherry instead of Teak and so on . More times then not they say we want you to do the whole thing right .
regards dusty
Edited 7/18/2007 4:08 pm ET by oldusty
I enjoyed your comments, thank you.
PS love the attitude!
Coach
You need to define your business. A manufacturing business must be cost competitive (and it is hard to be cost competitive with $2 per wages) at some defined quality level. Manufacturing businesses make big numbers of the same product with the result that there can be significant benefits in automation, buying large quantities of materials, etc.
If you are not running a manufacturing company, then you must sell on design, quality, or some other attribute that seperates you from the crowd. Picasso does not need to be price competitive.
Bill
He died before he sold anything as well. Just kidding...it is speculation side of our business that is getting the pressure.
Your comments were right on...much appreciated.
Holy cow!....after just reading your first post and not seeing the pic I was going to say I sure wouldn't do it. Then I saw the picture! Now I suggest you say no, then speculate on their parentage.
Designers, though talented in the profession, are essentially just middlemen in a products market. They don't just charge for their design services and deliver products at cost - they double dip and profit on the products.
And to suggest that knock-offs of any origin could be used as a reasonable alternative to the kind of work you do is absurd. First of all, you're making completely original pieces and no exact knock-off exists. And obviously you're geared toward a high end market that would be sensetive to lesser qauility.
I believe they are simply using a common tactic to fatten their wallets.
Regarding galleries, I've had my work in two. The first place was a complete mistake n my part. I was just happy to have my work IN one since it was an affirmation that I could do good work. But it was in a large formerly industrial building that had been converted to house lots of individual artists workshops. And not in a particularily good part of Minneapolis. As naive as I was at the time I agreed to a $20 fee per month to have it there. After visiting the building a few times to check out other people's work I noticed that there was virtually never anyone walking the halls on any of the 4 floors. I then realized that it was not the type of place anyone would go to to actually shop/purchase. Out it came.
Now I have 2 pieces in a gallery about a mile from my house, and it's in a large neighborhood that still has a strong sense of community within itself. And in a high traffic area.
At least in the Twin Cities, 40% for the gallery seems the norm, so it's a big hit. I don't look at it as a venue for making serious profits, because the gallery usually limits the number of pieces of any one artist. I see it as an advertising opportunity. I still advertise myself within the area.
The other big items with galleries is referral work. The gallery takes a percentage. The one I'm in now is only 10% - the lowest I've found. Another a mile away was 20% and I even ran into a dellusional gallery owner who wanted 40%!
I usually drop by once before I even talk to the owner to see what kind of work and prices they have. There's only 2 pure woodworking galleries that I know of in the Twin Cities - the one I was in and a cooperative operation of a few woodworkers. Very few of the "standard" type galleries have wood items of any size - mostly things like boxes, turnings, etc.
Thanx mucho....loved your comments..my wife and I sitting here cheering what you guys are saying...we are new to the speculation side (fifteen years custom work commission) and our gut told us the same thing...time to shoot the rep and the gallery....and move on.
I was once made an offer to show my work. The deal was no commissions, no fees. The paperwork came through as 33% commission on all sales. I passed.
---
But this about you ...
I looked at the curly maple chest. The most important issue: 2 or 3 drawers stood out as not matching.
Perhaps your dealer is no longer happy with the work you are doing. Ask what you can do to make your work more appropriate for his clients.
This is a typical problem with Tiger Maple..if you look old books or at the work of Glen Huey and others you can see the same type of thing. The temptations is to go really dark...I decided it to use real wood not veneer and let the tones go through
When doing the project I consulted with Jeff Jewitt on the phone and email and sent him a picture afterwards...he thought for going light that was a good job.
So I did my best to over come that...and made a decision after council.
Thanx for your comments.
If you are making a perfect prototype, then the price stands or should go up! Ask how many at a time they are going to buy and will all be the same? Mass production is the only way to reduce cost per item. Look at kitchen cabinets, any slight change is size adds 50% to the cost cause now its custom! Your cabinet is very special and looks it too. Replacing with a mass produced copy? yea right
Thank you for helping us make our decsion...your comments were very kind.
Hi Coach,
I'm not sure that I can add much more than has already been said but I'm going to give it a try.
Your work is truly inspiring and motivational to me. If you think about it, we all have access to the works of Krenov, Frid, Nakashima, Ray Pine, Klaus, Lowe, Raffan, Kirby; my God the list goes on for what seems like forever. None of these folks worked in a factory that I know of. And we all admire and are inspired by their contributions.
What's all that worth?
You've taken all that has been offered and added your own skill and patience on top of it all! I think you might just be underpaid!
By the way, who's CoachA (the wife)?
Best Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thank you very much and I appreciate the insight. You are right about those other people....they paved the way for all us hacks...
I coached football in Highschool and College and we always had the Head Coach and then there were the other guys...the wife is the Head Coach and I get to chalk the field.
Coach, I agree with the other posters. Your work can't be compared to Chinese furniture which is made with MDF or particleboard and veneers. They are making faux furniture. When you see an ad for an entire room of furniture for $1299, you know that it is not the same thing that you're making.
Not everyone will appreciate the difference or be able to afford to pay for handmade quality, but there are people out there that will. If you explain why your product is different, you will be able to find customers. All of us buy stuff and then throw it out and replace it...it's part of our consumer society. It's nice to have something with real value that lasts for generations and reflects the work of a craftsman instead of guy on the production line of a factory.
Jim
Dear Coach:
As a newbie hobbyist I have enjoyed the knots forum as I have found it a great way to learn many things. While I will never be more than just someone who "fools" around to relieve stress form my day job, I thought I might offer a perspective as a consumer.
First, hold the line on your prices - you know what you're worth and you should not sell yourself short. I have been very blessed in my life and as result my wife has had the opportunity to use designers occasionally over the last thirty-four years. The best ones know quality and value and believe me, the customer pays for it. They point out the quality and always make sure the customer understands that they are making an investment in a piece that their children and grandchildren will eventually appreciate.
Second, I was blessed to grow up surrounded by many wonderful antiques that had belonged to my ancestors. Today I appreciate them more than ever, as they provide not only link with my past, but a source of inspiration in my hobby. The value of some of these pieces today is astounding and I am very thankful that my ancestors had the good sense to purchase quality. Of course, these were new at the time and usually served some functional purpose. My children have now come to love them as much as my wife and I do and that brings a great sense of satisfaction.
Lastly, (and I apologize for being long winded) find a better customer. Based on the photo, you shouldn't have to compete with cheaply made knockoffs. There are plenty of people who are willing to pay for quality and design.
I wish you much luck and success!
Great post...speaking of being blessed...it is nice to be discussing this as a problem....I really don't have a problem compared to the real problems that people face so thanx for the perspective and the comments.
I read your first post and scanned the others. I don't see enough info to know exactly what your business model is. What is your typical client? Do you generally sell through a designer, dealer, architect, or direst to the customer? The "pressure from imports" problem is total BS. Unless you are literally selling the same style and product as them, then you should quit doing that. I have NO competition from imports. Heck I don't even have competition from local cabinet shops. The things that I make cannot be purchased anywhere. Judging by the piece you showed us your are in the same category.
There are two furniture/ custom architectural work business models that I have seen. One (probably most common) is the "I make my own unique designs for others to buy" and the other is "I will make what you need to suit the client and their tastes".
The first business model is usually relegated to the craft/art show and second tier gallery market. You have to produce quantity and sell low. For every hundred of this group there is one Maloof who can make what he wants and sell it for a premium, but that is the rare example. This can be a very good fit for many who do not like dealing with the customers demands or the designers whims and the deadlines and logistics of the architectural market. You can make what you want and sell how you want..... But you will not be able to earn the premiums that a architectural shop does.
The second business model will have people (usually professionals) coming to you with work to bid on. They will have specific parameters regarding function, style and sometimes construction details. These constraints are not generally negotiable. You can still apply your flavor or creativity to the work, the over all proportion, scale, design and finish will reflect your eye, but you cannot deviate too for from the client's request. The client will have demands that can seem unreasonable and sometimes personalities will clash, but they are the ones paying you. The good thing about this model???? MONEY. I earn far more on the commissioned piece than the "built to sell" piece. Last year I built a simple conference table from mostly particle board, maple and nice Walnut veneers and we agreed on $5,000! (a good deal for them) The table took me 3 weeks (I wasn't in a hurry) and there was around $700 in materials. I didn't have to deliver or install. More recently I designed and built an amazing hall table that is absolutely perfect in proportion and symmetry. It is not one of those kitschy woodworkers specials (lots of glaring bright figure with perfect crisp edges) but an inspired design with broad appeal. I spent several months working on it when I could; I probably have 500 hours in it counting the lengthy design time. The best offer I have received and the estimate of a local gallery for its selling price is $1,800. Not bad for a simple hall table, but I have made no money on it.
Imagine one project with tremendous effort in design and execution, another that was easy enough most amature wood workers would not be interested in it at all. Yet the conference table was far more profitable. The ONLY reason for this is that one was made and then peddled to the market in hopes of finding an interested buyer, and with the other the client came to me with the need.
My observation/experience dosent allow me to tell you what the value of your work is. The truth is your work is worth what the market dictates. You choice is weather you are going to sell product to the market, or services to a interested client.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Good stuff. I have 15 yrs in model two and am trying the Maloof thing in number one. As you say we are in the Vegas gift and trade show coming up at the end of this month...That is where the pressure comes from....
We are realizing that our rep dosen't know/care enough to follow through with the designers and people he needs to. They are there and he needs to break through....instead he is showing his ignorence.
We posted to double check our feelings on the subject and you guys came through.
Thanx
I haven't used a Rep, and i'm not against it, but I think there is a benifit to YOUR name being on the invoice and in the clients address book instead of some rep who has several carftspeople on a string. My experience has been that it only takes one of the "right jobs" to get a lot of exposure.
Maybe you need to look at direct marketing and faze out the rep. Once the rep sees what is happening he will either step it up and get you more work (profitable work) or he will ditch you.
Good luck.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Vegas this coming week will be his last...getting all the pieces home and my wife who is a well known designer says she wants to rep for me...pretty cool
All the checks and invoices do have my name on them...I assured him he wanted the commission but not the order follow or responsibility.
I really would like to see if the stuff I like to build will sell or at least stir up some interest. All your comments have been right on the money and have really helped us solidify or efforts.
thanx
Coach b
I really wish you all the best. I have to admit that I talk the business a lot better than I walk it. But I am improving day by day. Your experiences are an inspiration for us.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
This is a very complicated topic; not at all sure that there is a right answer; but here is my take:
We are in the manufacuring business selling high end furniture. In my opinion, every other manufacturer is your competition. And I don't mean just furniture. The consumer, even the affluent ones, has x amount of dollars to spend on home furnishings. The product you sell must offer value for price. Your customer must come to the conclusion that your product is worth the money you ask for it; they also must come to the conclusion that they cannot purchase that product or a similar product for a better price. I think that many of us ignore the importance of price. I also think that many of us ignore the the "middle-high end consumer" and concentrate on the affluent customer. The percentage of customers in affluent market is extremely limited.
An example: the shaker wall clock which seems to be everywhere. I have seen it priced from $190.00 to $1000.00. What is the consumer going to do? Unless there are hugely significant differences which are important to the customer between the two, they are going to purchase the $190.00 clock.
I don't claim to have the answers. All I claim are two things: 1. PRICE is important, and 2. I would like to see us broaden our market to include the non-affluent consumer who appreciates hand made furniture. PMM
There is one factor that seems to be implicit but not explicitly in this discussion. That is the need to educate the consumer. Typically the only metric a consumer can use to differentiate between well made and poorly made is whether particle board is visible on the back of the piece and whether or not it has dovetailed drawers (in the front).
To pay of the extra value they need to see the extra value, whether it is a better quality of wood, of finish, of details, of construction. IF they can't see it they won't pay for it.
I am continuously amazed that the price premiums that people pay for built-in cabinets and kitchen work. In my area, people will spent 20K plus for a small built in structure but are less willing to blindly sign a check for a 5K curly maple piece which has 3x the materials and 5x the labor. My theory (for what it is worth) is that they can't see the difference between the 1K piece at crate and barrel and the 5K custom piece. They do know that they can't buy the piece they want for this area of their house off the shelf and need to have it made custom.
When discussing price, educating the customer on the differences and what the increased price is getting them. If it isn't worth it to them, they won't pay for it. I liked the discussion from one thread on telling the customer that they are setting the price, not the craftsman.
On the other hand, there are features of a piece that have higher returns. Small inlays, stringing, beads, bandings, pinned mortises, are in labor content a small %age of the total labor in a piece but seem to raise the relative value of the piece (i.e., the margins on the increased detail is fairly high). These the customer can see on your piece and aren't showing up as frequently in the mass market. Another example is the lack of "curves" in production work.
The current manufacturing equipment used to mass produce has limitations in the shapes, textures, and details it can produce . Finding and exploiting those differences can highlight the relative differences between mass and custom as well.
Both you and PMMatty put the icing on the cake. I hadn't wanted to blurt out what about the customer who would really like to have this but can't go through a designer and would never think of going to a individual craftsman in fear of whatever they fear.
Case in point, I got a source for doing small production runs on one of my pieces from one or our industries well know guys(took a shot and emailed him). The piece that I had put a $1800 price tag on he wouldn't consider building for under $3000 a copy.
I don't have that cliental and not sure how to get there, but he thought the piece was. But I've always been the guy on vacation and saw a great piece and said someday maybe I could afford that...ect..
I would like to build 8-12 pieces a year and average $2500-3000 each. That would supplement my upcoming retirement and give me something to do....and if I want that really nice piece now....I just make it.
Thank you both great advice and we are taking it.
Coach B
Edited 7/22/2007 2:13 pm ET by CoachB
"In my opinion, every other manufacturer is your competition. And I don't mean just furniture."I completely disagree with this statement. I've been making custom furniture and furnishings now for over 25 years.... one man shop, high end, everything is commissioned. I've never made a sale that was impulsive. People seek me out when they want something that only I can make. I have no competition.
He wasn't refering to the custum furniture market specifically but the fact that we are competeing for a piece of the client's pie. If a customer is going to spend money on their home there are a lot of options for them. Read his post again and you see he is talking about a larger view than the "my stuff is better than the stuff at the local furniture store" position. Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
My position is exactly as mudman explained. No need to embellish his statements. You have competition, whether you want to accept that or not. That competetion is for every disposable dollar that a consumer has to spend on virtually anything. A crazy example: "do I spend my extra (disposable) money on sapwoods beautiful, unique furniture or do I spend 2 weeks in Aruba". It is all about the consumers perception of value for money spent. PMM
pmmatty,Obviously there is quite a bit of difference between a $190.00 clock and a $1000.00 clock. If the person shopping for the clock doesn't already recognize the difference then they are not going to be a customer of a studio furniture maker, they will be a customer of Ikea or Walmart. So the comparison is so totally irrelevent that it does not make any sense. Let's see, I would imagine that the $190.00 clock has a picture of wood laminated to a mdf core and I'm sure it would have a quartz movement, and would be assembled in a fast production version of brads and glue, without meaningful joinery.On the other hand the $1000.00 version would be made from select hardwoods, selected and matched by an experienced eye. It would most assuredly have a mechanical movement which most probably would cost close to the $190.00 price tag of the other clock. The joinery would be executed with the finest detail. The finish would be applied in several carefully done steps, and it would probably have antigue glass in the bonnet section, and would have a custom dial face.These two clocks might have a similar physical size but any comparison ends there. They are in fact two entirely different things. One has a direct connection to a individual person and the other has a direct connection to China. There is no competition between the two items.Ron BreseIf you're too open minded your brains will fall out.
Of course you can find custom woodworkers in China that are at least equivalent to any custom woodworker in the US.
Of course you will have to travel a bit further than your neighborhood Wallmart, Ikea, or Pier 1 Import Store.
In my limited experience you will not find these folks at your standard Hong Kong, Shanghai or Guangzhou export agency either.
I tend to believe that it is quite feasible to find a Chinese hand crafted $1,000 clock for around 元2,000.
Chris
You just described the difference to YOU. You, and certaintly any of the members of this forum, percieve that the price variation reflects the joinery and materials. But there are very, very few clients who care enough to pay the difference. I have been doing this long enough and I have met a lot of others like us at trade, art and craft shows to know that joinery dosen't sell product. It is only woodworkers who marvel at the sculpted joinery of a Maloof rocker, the collector sees the lines, breaks, use of tone and shape that define the styling of the piece. At industry shows it is only the garage wood wooker that likes to go on and on about mortise and tennon or the burr angle on their scraper. The buyers and designers comment on the aestetics, the composition, and the character of the piece. The most they say about the joinery or machining details is "Very clean work" and "It looks like it will hold up nicely"
I have yet to win someone over by expounding on the virtues of my construction techniques. I finally learned that I sould not even stress it more than a cursory statement that I use "heirloom quality joinery". If they want to know more they ask, and then they usually change the subject after 3 minutes of my joinery schpeil. The Reason that clients (99% of the time, but 100% of the time in my experience) will buy the $2,000 clock is that it has a more interesting design and it was made for them by me. They don't really care how it was made, just that it was made buy the guy in front of them.
I used to bring samples of joinery details to a client to sell them on my superior construction. I finally realised that they would, without fail, look at the finish not the joinery. Now I bring finish samples to show them and just mention the construction details by saying that "I use glued traditional joinery that does not rely on nails and screws to hold things togather".
Please don't think that I am bashing the joinery infatuated weekend wood worker, I ofter see their work on this forum and in the magazine. I know that I have never made anything like that, and probably never will. But I focus on the value to the client that the other poster refered to; specifically the design, finish, character, and longetivity. The reason I focus an those points is because that is what the client sees.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Mudman,I am not a joinery infatuated weekend woodworker, in fact I have been doing commissioned furniture pieces full time for 15 years now. The point I was trying to make was not just about joinery and materials, and it had nothing to do with how one presents their work to the potential client. It was merely to describe that any comparison between the two items is absurd. Anyone that would even begin to compare a $190.00 massed produced (most likely imported from a manufacturing facility in China) to a $1000.00 dollar bench made piece done by a skilled craftsmen, is not a viable client for a studio furniture craftsman. Ron BreseIf you're too open minded your brains will fall out.
That goes without saying. But the compairison is there regaurdless. It sounds like you know where I am coming from. We have to sell a srevice, a product, and a feeling at the same time. I often hear crafts people lament that they cant sell their wares because the import market and if only the buyers knew how well my stuff is made..... The reality is that the it has nothing to do with that.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Mudman and Olddusty,The age range of my cutomers is 50 to 70, this age group still recognizes the economics of buying something they will never have to replace. However the younger age group of potential clients has grown up in a disposable society. It started with electronics that were so attractively priced that it was easier to replace something than to repair it, now this mind set has found it's way into furniture and cabinetry. People actually buy things knowing that they will have to replace it at a future date, and they go with the idea of "Oh well I'll be tired of it and will want something new at that point." Fortunately as they age they get tired of the constant shopping and at this point will want something that has lasting value, that's when guys like us step up to the plate. The unfortunate side of this is that it reduces the number of potential clients that are available to artisan's like ourselves at any given time.Ron BreseIf you're too open minded your brains will fall out.
Thats an interesting observation. I find that 50 is the upper end of my clientele. Granted I Mostly build cabinetry, not furniture. I can't say how long my clients will keep my work but I suspect that if they have it custom made they will keep it. Where are you located? Do you have the wealthy 30 year old MBA/ management types there like we do here in Dallas, TX?Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Mudman,My shop is located about 60 miles south of Atlanta, Ga. The difference in our clients may be due to the fact that I am almost exclusively furniture and hand tools. We have the wealthy 30 something MBA types but they seem to be spending their money on BMWs.Ronhttp://www.breseplane.comIf you're too open minded your brains will fall out.
Bimmers, yes. But they also like their hame theaters and the wife ,of course, needs a 800 sqft. kitchen with a massive island and comercial appliances! If I can get them to comision a desk or dining table all the better.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Hi Ron & Mudman ,
Both of you have valid points and are correct . We first need to agree the diy types are typically not our clients so immediately we have a different breed or level of shoppers .
Like I said in an earlier post a $300 China version of a Maloofian rocker is in no way the same . For the folks that can't see the difference the cheaper priced is the way to go . Not everyone wants or cares about our quality level of work .
I have mostly done case work to earn a living with some furniture pieces now and then as the demand surfaced . I have never built a piece and then tried to sell , only custom jobs that I know are sold , I think there is a difference .
Honestly except a few times with kitchen cabinet shoppers who asked if the drawers get dove tailed a Client has never asked about the joinery I use .
I do try and take the time to educate my clients about the differences in materials and hardware and finish , I don't compare my products to others , usually they have seen my work or have been referred or can see a job in progress . All they want to know is when I can do the job .
Some folks are not impatient and many realize that it is not unusual to wait for custom work , I think many expect a wait .
regards dusty
pmmatty wrote,(I don't claim to have the answers. All I claim are two things: 1. PRICE is important, and 2. I would like to see us broaden our market to include the non-affluent consumer who appreciates hand made furniture. PMM)pmmatty do you have any ideas about how to include the non-affluent consumer ?, without working for less than minimum wage in the process. If we pay ourselves a decent wage to do the work and we use exceptional materials, the sum of these things comes up to a price that is typically out of the middle income price range for a given object. At the end of the day if we can't make a decent wage for doing this then we're better off doing something else.This is why some of the best work being produced today is being done by hobbiest type woodworkers. As professionals we may be a bit more efficient at accomplishing task and we may be a bit better tooled up for the processes, however the bottom line is how many hours can we put into something, the hobbiest does not have this limitation on the hours they spend on a given project.When asked by someone how long it takes to build a piece, my answer is "as long as it takes to do it right". However if I misjudge how long it will take, that reduces my hourly rate, and once I give someone a price that extra time is an unrecoverable expense. Now if I reduce the time I am willing to spend that effects the quality of the product and then I am compromising what is supposed to set my work apart from the manufactured pieces.When you start exploring ways to compete then you find yourselves coming up with solutions that compromise quality in a big way, and some of the solutions will put you in a position to put the quality of your product in the hands of someone else. One can use veneered sheets goods to cut material and labor cost on making sides panels for case goods, however as soon as you take this step the quality of your product now lies in the hands of the plywood manufacturer. If a piece delaminates and you have to remake the piece, the folks you buy the plywood from will only offer the replace the plywood, let's see the cost of the labor, finishing supplies, and other solid stock materials versus the cost of one sheet of plywood, who's taking the gamble here? Not to mention the fact that your reputation for producing a quality product will have suffered a major hit.It's hard to be all things to all people, I think you either have to decide to be a furniture manufacturer that produces in mass and sells financing or you have to be a high quality commissioned furniture maker that makes really exceptional things one at at time. I've been doing this for 15 years and I've not found a way to make great works of wood cheaper without compromising quality of product.Now don't take the intent of this post as a "it can't be done pronouncement" if other's have ideas that have past me by then I would really be interested in learning about them.RonIf you're too open minded your brains will fall out.
Edited 7/26/2007 10:49 am ET by Ronaway
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled