Replies

1. 
   dgreen | Sep 04, 2008 07:22am | #1

   Are you saying the panel is a loose fit in the groove?

    

    

   ................................................

   You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.

   Jack London

1. 
   stpatrick | Sep 04, 2008 07:39am | #2

   No, I have not yet cut the panel. The slop is in the fit between the groove cut on the stile and the end cut on the rail.  When i fit the  old stuff and the new i noticed the slop, thus i used the micrometer to measure the difference. Perplexed that the new groove was wider even though i used the same bit, i started checking everything i could think of . . . . . . and the only thing i could find was a slight elevation difference on the insert plate, which i adjusted upwards a tad. My other thought was that maybe the older one dried out in the last 6 months, but it still fits the bit perfectly, so i ruled that out as a possibility.

    

   i hope that is clearer. thank you, patrick

   Edited 9/4/2008 12:50 am by stpatrick

2. 
   jvk | Sep 04, 2008 12:03pm | #3

   Possibly if you run it thru in several passes, you are applying more/less pressure holding the piece down causing varying heights. Perhaps the piece is bowed.  Are your bits "fixed" or do you assemble them w/ shims.  You do want about 5/1000 space for glue. trimjim

1. 
   stpatrick | Sep 04, 2008 05:35pm | #5

   Jim, i noticed the problem when i did a test fit after running the shorter rails (14 and 17 inches in lenght) using the same technique, same push sticks, etc.

   I did make 2 passes, 1st at half depth and 2nd at full, but i do not see a scarf line in either sidewall of the groove.

   I think Frank may have been watching me . . . .

   Edited 9/4/2008 10:37 am by stpatrick

2. 
   Frank Vucolo | Sep 04, 2008 04:54pm | #4

   It is possible that the 'spindle' (actually the vertical line created by the shaft of the bit) is not at exactly 90 degrees to the table, and/or the router mount is not stable causing too much vibration.

   Perhaps the shaft is even bent slightly? Is it 1/4 or 1/2 shaft?

   Any of these things can cause that slot cutter to start working like a wobble dado in a table saw, making a wider cut.

   Another possibility is that you have the cope cutter misadjusted. Rather than the groove being too wide, you may be cutting the stub tenon part to thin? Have you disassembled the bit and reassembled it? Did you get the shims back in the right place?

   Measure the distance from the groove to the back of the stile (about 1/8 or so) then measure the distance from the stub tenon to the back of the rail. That measurement should be exactly the same and the profile cut on the front of the joint should match exactly. You may need a shim between the bearing and the slit cutter on the cope setup.

   Every time I have to disassemble these sets to do a glass application, I cringe and take detailed notes with drawings to make sure I get all the shims back in the right places for solid doors.

    

   Good luck,

   Frank  

1. 
   stpatrick | Sep 04, 2008 05:57pm | #6

   Darn, you are good!

   I hadn't thought of checking the vertical 90degree of the shaft/router in the table from front to back, but that wobble effect is what i was thinking when i found the insert plate slightly lower on the infeed side.  But, any suggestion on how i check for vertical? I guess i could chuck a dowel into the router to give me enough lenght to put a square on it . . . . any other thoughts???

   My set has  the one-half inch shaft.

   Ouch, you've got me there; to trim the drawer fronts for the bath vanity i took the top cutter off, and thought i paid attention to reassembly, but apparently didn't trust myself because i stuck a note in the bit box (reminding me to check fit the assembly), but even though it was only 6 months ago i am fuzzy on the details of why i doubted myself (yeah, obvious now). When checking i noted the top bearing did not spin because i put the washer on the wrong side. BUT even if that was off, wouldn't it  misalign the slot rather than make it too wide??

   Frank, another thought that came to me is how do i know if the bearings in the router allow the shaft to wobble? It is  a PC7518(?) that came in the Rosseau table when i bought it from a guy in town. When the bit is in and tight i do not feel any wiggle, but i am not sure that is a real test of function.

   I really appreciate your time and insight. Thank you, Patrick

1. 
   Frank Vucolo | Sep 04, 2008 08:59pm | #7

   Patrick,

   I guess i could chuck a dowel into the router to give me enough lenght to put a square on it . . . . any other thoughts???

   I have a steel rod (about 3/8 and about 10" long) that I use in my drill press and router table for set-up. If you use a wooden dowel, you might not get as accurate a result (it may not be straight, wood might crush disproportionately in the collet.)

   When checking i noted the top bearing did not spin because i put the washer on the wrong side. BUT even if that was off, wouldn't it  misalign the slot rather than make it too wide??

   Yes, the slot would be misaligned, but the same size. What I was referring to was the cope bit. Your original post presumes the slot is too wide and resulting in the slop. I suggest that your slot may be fine, but your stub tenon is too narrow. The width of the stub tenon is the result of the width of the bearing and any shims between the bearing and profile cutter on one side, and the bearing and slot cutter on the other side.

   Everything being adjusted properly, there is no variable for the slot on the stick bit - the slot cutter cuts the slot at the width of the cutter's edge. The stub tenon on the cope part is not cut - it is the void between the profile edge and the slot cutting edge and can be adjusted, within limits, with shims.

   do i know if the bearings in the router allow the shaft to wobble? It is  a PC7518(?) that came in the Rosseau table when i bought it from a guy in town. When the bit is in and tight i do not feel any wiggle, but i am not sure that is a real test of function.

   I suppose that could happen and - though I've never had this problem and never tried it -  you could use a dial indicator to check it. But if you got one satisfactory set from that router and have been adjusting the table and disassembling the cutters I think the problem lies with the table/cutters and not the router. However, it you were not the one who mounted this router, I'd take it apart and make sure the router is properly mounted to the plate, that all the screws are tight and that someone didn't do something hokey with washers or something.

   One more thing. Have you milled all your stock on a thickness planer so that everything is the same thickness? That is a must to get things perfect.

   If you did thickness your stock, did you remember to cut off the sniped ends?

   I know a lot of people swear that they get no snipe or very little snipe, and want to belive that, but this is one of the situations where any snipe at all is going to impact the results in a negative fashion.

   Hope this helps,

   Frank

1. 
   stpatrick | Sep 04, 2008 09:26pm | #8

   Frank, yes it helps and gives me some guidance on where to go next.

   Yes, i did thickness plane it all on a dc 380 15 inch, but did not   yet trim the edges . . . . i left them a little long in case i had chipping/blowout . . . but i am measuring the groove width mid lenght.

   It is the groove, not the stub tennon . . . since that cutter i did NOT take apart, and i am using the old stub tennon for fit and comparison.

   The other rails and stiles (for the vanity) were done with a different router and different table, so these are the first for me on this one.  I bought the table and fence for $100 and the guy said i could keep the router that was already mounted on it, so i looked underneath . . . . how could i refuse a pc 7518 3and 1/4 horse . .  . .

    I think i will unmount the router  and recheck the angle, mounts, etc.

   The Rousseau table has 6 threaded inserts on the bottom of the cutout, one in each corner and 1 one mid-point on each long side. They are used to level the plate holding the router.  2 of them seem to be toast (not working). i went to their website but couldn't find a parts list.  Anyone know where i can find 2 replacements??

   Edited 9/4/2008 2:48 pm by stpatrick

2. 
   stpatrick | Sep 07, 2008 04:22am | #9

   Frank, thanks again for the input.  I spent soem time today taking the router out of the table, off the base plate, etc.  It seems that one of the 4 holes drilled into the plate to mount the router is slightly out of square alignment, such that it seems to cause a slight bow or hump in the center of the phenolic when the screw gets tightened and causes a "pinching" type motion. It also seems to explain why the center insert was so difficult to snap in and out.  I widened the holes a bit and then took a flat file to the top insert plate and center ring.  Still have not been able to get 2 of the 6 leveling screws to work, so am shimming . . . .     .for now.

    

   I still have to get  a steel shaft to check 90 degree vertical.

   Edited 9/6/2008 9:23 pm by stpatrick

1. 
   Frank Vucolo | Sep 07, 2008 10:41pm | #10

   Sounds like you have the problem surrounded!

   Let us know how it turns out in the end.

2. 
   stpatrick | Sep 15, 2008 06:10pm | #11

   Frank, dgreen, and all others:

   Thanks again for the comments and insight. I spent some time this weekend reassembling the router and table, got things flattened out, adjusted well, etc and still was not happy with the cut.  I again took the cutter apart and started inspecting the shims (very thin) again, when viola', I realized that I had put the top washer (ie, 3 or 4 times thicker than a shim) between the cutters, and instead of the washer I had put a shim between the top cutter and the guide bearing.  After reassembling in the correct order . . . . it suddenly works great and fits snug.

   Moral of the venture: 1)Take copious notes if i ever again take a cutter apart;  2) Always check the set-up of equipment i acquire, rather than ASSuming it is okay; and 3) Make test cuts and check the fit BEFORE cutting half of the stock.

   Thank you again, Patrick