Problems with hand cut Dovetails, this is the first time that I have ever made dovetails, in the past few days thats all I have been doing is practice, practice, practice and more practice, but I just can’t seem to get to fit right. I could use some help.
I am in the process of making a H/D work bench, and these dovetails would be on the face plate ( sort-a-speak ) of the work bench. 1 1/2 hard maple.
Sparky 2006
Replies
It takes a good bit of practice to consistently be able to form well fitting DTs right from the saw. Here is a bit of cheat that I readily admit I still use when working on a piece where only a perfect fit will do:
The key aspect of this is that you are marking everyline with a knife blade and are paring with a chisel to every finished surface. So you need not be perfect with the saw - indeed you want to stay slightly (as slightly as you comfortably can) in the waste.
1. Use a wheel marking gauge to mark the base lines on all boards to be joined. The wheel will cut a line.
2. Use a dovetail marker or bevel gauge/try or combination square combination and marking knife to carefully mark out all the edges of your tails. It's important to mark both sides so that the sides of the tails are square to the faces of the board once pared - i.e., you need a reference on both sides to and the top to inform your paring.
3. Cut with your saw of choice, close to, but not on the lines. Chisel out the bulk of the waste, again leaving a slight extra for later paring. That is, the chisel's flat back should be like 1/64 or so from the line you wheel gauge marked.
4. Now use your sharpest appropriate sized bench chisels to carefully remove teh extra down to the knife lines on all sides. In the end grain at the base you only need to worry about the outside edges at the faces and can slightly undercut the rest.
5. Clamp the pin board in your vise with the end to be cut as pins sticking up the thickness of the tail board (using a board the same thickness as the tail board as a gauge) Now put the tail board over the gauge board in position to mark the pins. Use a knife and carefully mark the end grain. Then take the board out of the vise (or reposition it in the vise) to allow you to use a knife and your square to mark/continue the lines on the face sides of the board.
6. Again saw in the waste leaving your knife lines to guide your paring. Chop out the waste again and again leave some meat to pare. Now par down to and just bare take the knife lines.
If you've marked and pared carefully, your DTs should fit snugly with no gaps.
Hard maple is not very forgiving (unlike soft woods it will not compress to allow mistakes) so some slight adjustments here and there with the chisel to relieve tight spots might be necessary. Go slow. Better to remove too little and try again than too much.
Hope this helps.
Thanks Samson !! I will give your suggestions a try, the way you laid it out it looks simple. Right now I will try anything.
Thanks again Sparky 2006
"3. Cut with your saw of choice, close to, but not on the lines. Chisel out the bulk of the waste, again leaving a slight extra for later paring. That is, the chisel's flat back should be like 1/64 or so from the line you wheel gauge marked.
4. Now use your sharpest appropriate sized bench chisels to carefully remove teh extra down to the knife lines on all sides. In the end grain at the base you only need to worry about the outside edges at the faces and can slightly undercut the rest."
Samson, I've never understood the logic of the general methodology with this kind of advice. It simply doesn't make any sense to me to mark a precise line and then deliberately not cut to it with the saw.
All this does is increase the work. First you hack away roughly with a saw somewhere in the general vicinity of the line. Then you fiddle about with a chisel to get to it! And this is done on both the tails and the pins, at least some of which are needlessly double marked!
Surely the point of saws and chisels is that the user develops the skill to use both to cut accurately to precisely defined lines? Practice brings with it increased accuracy and speed. I think it's better to develop this ability rather than fight shy of it by never committing to accurately cutting to a line.
In the methodolgy you're espousing it seems to me that what you're doing is increasing the time required to do the job, perhaps adding as much as 50 or 70%.
You're not the first I've seen offer up this kind of advice, and you surely won't be the last, but I find it odd. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
You will note that I began my response by saying that the method I was about to describe was not optimal and was a "cheat." And yes it takes half again longer to make DTs this way. If you are a hobbiest, however, time is usually not at a premium. And sure, practicing until you can saw perfectly is better in the long run, but what if you're like Sparky and want to build a bench NOW? Should you delay all projects involving DTs until you've worked for months to acquire the sawing skills necessary or instead just form the parts with a very controlable chisel as opposed to a a saw you don't yet control reliably?
Feel free to look down on those, like me, who have not yet practiced to the point where I am 100% perfect at sawing square and to the line and therefor will sometimes resort ot his method. If I'm cutting a DT'd carcass in fine wood (I'd rather not waste), I will use this method so that the prominent dovetails are assured to be gap free. A little extra time is a small price to pay.
Samson, I suppose from my lofty position I can barely see that far down to realise what's going on with you guys scrabbling around in the lower reaches of the furniture making spectrum. (Now before you go getting all knicker twisted about my sense of aloofness and superiority, that was said very much tongue in cheek, and meant to be humorous.)
Explained as you did (in the post I'm responding to) I can see where you're coming from to ensure getting a satisfactory result and understand your cautious approach. As long as it works for you in the circumstances you describe that's okay.
Yet I'm still reluctant to encourage the learners I teach to emulate the dovetail paring method you described. The reason for that is I generally find a learner that hasn't yet got the skill to saw accurately to a line can't chisel accurately to a line either. The two skills, in my experience, go hand in hand.
For that reason I encourage learners to stretch themselves and develop the skill necessarry before tackling work too ambitious for them to handle. It's alright barely keeping your head above water, but drowning's not much fun, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
I tend to agree with you Richard, but I can understand Samson's POV as well.A few observations:1. One of the problems with Samson's approach is the very real possibility that the beginner will NEVER progress to the point of sawing square to the line if he/she always bails by leaving some cheat space to chisel out. It can become a self fulfilling prophecy.2. One of the things that I learned is how to really think through what must be done perfectly... and what must be done nearly so. When I saw a DT from the datum face, I make very certain that I am spot on, the back side face, perhaps not so much. I'd like to say that I can do both perfectly- and hopefully will some day- but I comfort myself by knowing that the joint will still be strong and my shortcomings will not be seen. Sawing the tails absolutely square so my transfer marks on the tails will be accurate is key, other things not so much. I find if I focus on the one or two things of each step that are truly essential, I am more likely to get a result that I like. For the beginner, everything seems difficult- partly because everything seems equally (and highly) important.3. I find that marking up some poplar scraps and doing a half a dozen practice cuts helps me when I start cutting a DT. A few practice swings never hurts before stepping up to the plate (err... wicket).4. Most of us don't like the thought that our early efforts with their mistakes will haunt us... end tables in the living room, chests in the bedroom, etc. So when I was starting out, I practiced making pieces for my shop. I learned to hand chop M&Ts for a cutting table (out of spruce 2x4s), my first dovetails are in the carcass of a shop cabinet well above eye level... I didn't butcher any fine hardwoods doing it, but I learned a lot, and I wryly spend much of my time gazing at my mishapen efforts while I attempt to do better on the furniture that goes upstairs...Just my 2p,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
First, you make excellent points about recognizing what parts are crucial for cosmetics. The same is true for all joints really.
Second, about this:
One of the problems with Samson's approach is the very real possibility that the beginner will NEVER progress to the point of sawing square to the line if he/she always bails by leaving some cheat space to chisel out. It can become a self fulfilling prophecy.
If this occurs in the case of a hobbiest, so what? Is there something more valid about handcut dovetails arrived at through the deft use of a saw and those arrived at through the deft use of a chisel? The chisel may be slower, but if time is immaterial, so what. Do the two look different? Is strength of the joint affected?
Moreover, when making half blind DT's, tons of deft chisel work is required for the pins, is it not? Deft chisel work is also required for the baselines of through DTs. You don't saw those do you? At best then, the saw is merely defining the glue faces of the tails and pins. Moreover, I hear even the best sawers occassionally have to do a little paring to adjust a fit. In short, how far away from each other are the two methods in the first place?
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for skilled sawing, and try like hell to get better and better. But it's not my life's work and so I don't get better very fast or get rusty if it's been a couple of projects since DTs were called for.
Edited 3/25/2007 9:32 pm ET by Samson
I am a self taught woodworker, of an amateur way, and don't have a lot of experience in DTs, but I have done some and did a lot of saw and chisel work on my kitchen cabinets, and putting up my window trim and such, and feel that the two work extremely well together. It may be that my saw skills are that lacking, and I don't belive them to be excellent, but I feel much more confident with a quick saw cut, and not very much time with a chisel, to make a nice clean fit. Even an accurate saw cut doesn't seem clean enough for a finish to me. I am not a production wood worker, so my time has a different value .
IMHO
Pedro
<" Is there something more valid about handcut dovetails arrived at through the deft use of a saw and those arrived at through the deft use of a chisel?">It is easier and faster to saw square to the line than to try to get there by degrees with a chisel. If you don't practice it (sawing straight to the line), you'll never get the hang of doing it. Your end result might be similar, but why do it the hard way? BTW, it helps to saw your half-blind DTs well too. I don't think it is all a matter of chiseling. And I agree with the other post, a sharp saw makes a difference. It doesn't take too long to tune up a saw that is not in bad condition.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Personally, I developed the skill of paring to a line before that of cutting to a line. Nevertheless, I agree that the aim should be to saw to a line with dovetails, as opposed to deliberately including both sawing and paring in the process.
In practice I find that many of my sawcuts are sufficient to get there. On other occasions, when the fit is too tight, I can trace this to the saw line not getting close enough to the sharply knifed line I made. Then it is a simple matter to place a chisel on the line and push down, so removing a thin shaving. This paring is easily done since the knifed line is sufficient to guide the cut.
So I draw a distinction between the primary practice and the secondary fine tuning.
A lot of the time the skills needed are the result of repetition and the eventual development of muscle memory. Some of the aids (the LV dovetail sawing guide, my dovetail chiseling guide) around are wonderful tutors and, as a result, I do not look down on them. We Weekend Warriors would not otherwise have the opportunity to develop these motor skills. As some point it will be important to gird your loins, and set aside the training wheels. However, until that time, using a jig to practice is far better than not practicing at all.
Regards from Perth
Derek
derek,
did that last weekend (do you count dovetails like static line jumps before trying freefall?) what I did was try a simple box with very fine pins, not quite a saw kerf because I dont have a small enough chisel to chop out the bottom for the thickness I was using.
Chisel wouldn't fit to pare the sides of the tails so had to rely on the saw. Cheated a bit on the pins. end result about half as good as my normal cautious approach but getting pretty quick by the 4th set. OK for the till in a wooden toy chest - can always be replaced.
Also used the Stanley 45 to cut the grooves for the bottom. Easily faster than the tailed router if you include setup and clean up time. The only problem was that the groves were not stopped so the show through on the outside of the box. I dont have a small enough bit for my stanley 71 for ply drawer bottoms - what are your thoughts on modifying an alen key as a new iron?
dave
Yet I'm still reluctant to encourage the learners I teach to emulate the dovetail paring method you described. The reason for that is I generally find a learner that hasn't yet got the skill to saw accurately to a line can't chisel accurately to a line either. The two skills, in my experience, go hand in hand.
I never thought of paring as terribly difficult, but I may just be naturally gifted when it comes to chiseling. ;-) More seriously, there is a chance I learned more about chiseling well before trying my first dovetail as I have been into sculptural carving (on and off) since my teenage years. Maybe I take carving type skills for granted as they seem second nature to me at this point. I don't mean to sound conceited, but merely to say I never thought of the "two skills to go hand in hand" as you say, and this may be why.
I think one thing needs to be mentioned about sawing dovetails. The saw must be sharp and set properly. The woodworker has the best control over his/her saw and can saw to a line when it is sharp. I have been handed too many saws claimed to be sharp by their owners; the teeth are rounded over or the set is not even. A dull saw wanders in the cut as the owner applies extra pressure to make the cut, and a bent saw will not cut straight. Too many woodworkers try to get one more cut from their saw before the next sharpening.
I learned to sharpen my own saws after I asked my neighbor where I could get my saw sharpened. He handed me his saw set and explained to me how to do it myself. I was 16 years old at the time. I have been sharpening my saws for over 40 years. They need to be resharpened when they will not cut to a line and not after the teeth's cutting edges are rounded over. It also takes less time to resharpen a saw that has not been overused before resharpening. The finish left by the saw has more to do with the condition of the teeth. A fine tooth saw does not guarantee a better finish and a more accurate cut. A sharp saw will cut through the grain and not follow it.
A properly sharpened saw has reduced my work and time spent to make things go together.
It all starts (and for the most part, ends) with clear and careful marking out. After that it's just cutting straight and square lines.
If you are having trouble marking out your tails after cutting pins, try the reverse (cut tails, then mark pins); or vice versa, whichever is the case. Be sure to use the first piece cut (be it tails or pins) to mark out the mating piece.
Once marked, cut to the lines, and be careful to keep cuts straight and square. Then just do this about 100 times and you'll be a pro.
Thanks Pondfish !!! I do not work at the shop on the week ends, I stay home with my dear wife, she has been very sick now for quite some time now. But I will give all of the sugestions a try.
Thanks again to all of you ! Sparky 2006
Sparky
Samson has given you excellent advice.
Dimension your boards carefully (you can't work with anything untrue), mark accurately, and cut as precisely as you can.
There are several strategies and aids in achieving these aims. Below is a link to a jig I made that you may find useful. This one helps keep the baselines square and even. It was published in Popular Woodworking about a year ago.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=16415
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 3/23/2007 11:17 pm ET by derekcohen
Derek !!! I have only posted 2 messages ( questions ) on line until now. But I have read a lot of the postings, and I enjoy your post very much. And I want to thank you very much for your posting.
Sparky 2006
hi derek,
i really have to echo sparky's post and thank you for all of your posts. one question on this last set of jig pics. i like the idea of the square L fence, what is the necessity of the front sliding fence?
thanks, greg
Edited 3/24/2007 4:48 pm ET by gmoney
one question on this last set of jig pics. i like the idea of the square L fence, what is the necessity of the front sliding fence?
Thanks Sparky and Greg.
The sliding front fence acts as a depth stop. Slide the board up against it. Clamp down the fence. Now you can flip over the board and still be paring in line with the other side.
Regards from Perth
Derek
that makes sense. i usually just realign to my scribe mark, but i can see the benefit in speed with your fence.
sparky: I have had my own problems with HC dovetails. So I cheat. It is not really cheating. If there are tools to help me improve my work, I consider that using technology and being smart. So I use a dovetail saw and guide developed and sold by Lee Valley to help me out. Address follows. Hope it helps you out. PMM
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=41718&cat=1,42884
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