Replies

1. 
   RANGERP75R | Jul 14, 2003 08:22am | #1

   eric

      The LM72R010 is a 24 tooth flat designed for efficient ripping. I have one an it does just that for me. Rip a little wider and take it to the jointer.

      If you do not have a jointer (guessing you do if you have a PM 66), or you just want to eliminate the jointer step you probably should have got the new Freud LM74R010 30 tooth blade made to give the much smoother cut up to 4/4 stock.
   Regards.... sarge..jt

2. 
   RANGERP75R | Jul 14, 2003 08:27am | #2

   eric

      Opps.. Missed something. I get relatively smooth cuts, even though I don't consider them glue ready. If you are getting burning, there's a problem. If the marks are just extreme, check alignment, then slow an speed up your feed rate to see if that will help. Check your splitter alignment also.

   sarge..jt

1. 
   emaillard | Jul 14, 2003 06:32pm | #4

   Sarge,

   Thanks for the tip, I will check the splitter tonight. There is no burning and the marks are not extreme. Maybe my expectations were too high. The results are already better than the combo blade I got with the saw but I was expecting the "mirror finish" advertised. I am quite new to woodworking and I learn by trial-and-error...

   Eric

3. 
   forestgirl | Jul 14, 2003 08:57am | #3

   I have the Diablo version of that same blade, and it rips a pretty darned clean line.  Sounds to me like your saw needs tuning.  Don't forget to check the splitter alignment!

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   emaillard | Jul 14, 2003 06:34pm | #5

   Forrest Girl,

   I will check the splitter alignment. I already checked the blade - miter slot alignment. Anything else I should look for?

   Thanks,

   Eric

1. 
   RANGERP75R | Jul 14, 2003 08:03pm | #6

   eric

      Check the blade to rip fence alignment. If you have a framing square, put the L end to the fence an measure to the outside tip of a tooth in the front. Turn the square over an do the same with a tooth tip on the rear of blade. My fence scale is dead -on, but I do this on every set-up.

      The only time I ever had a kick-back was because I goofed from in-attention an had the rear of the fence too close to the blade causing pinch between blade, splitter an fence. The rear of fence can be slightly farther away than the front. This will not cause a mojor problem. But, if closer you got a potential problem not only with a bad cut, but a kick-back issue an that's a no-no.

   sarge..jt

2. 
   forestgirl | Jul 14, 2003 09:00pm | #7

   Only thing I can think of outside of the usual tuning procedures and splitter alignment is to make sure your fence isn't moving during the rip (the back part of the fence).  If it's moving, it should result in a measurable if tiny discrepancy in width between the front (leading) part of the board and the trailing end, and probably some burning.

   I just re-read the Freud blade brochure, and they do present the LU72 as a glue-line rip blade.  I'll drop Charles from Freud a line and see if he can shed some light here.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

4. 
   johnhardy | Jul 14, 2003 09:13pm | #8

   Sounds to me like your fence is set exactly parallel to the blade. Hence the teeth hitting the wood on the way up (far side of the blade) as well as the way down (near side of the blade).

   What I do is set my fence so that the fence toes away from the blade a few thousandths at the rear. This way, the blade only really cuts the wood on the way down. I get glue line rips with my Forrest blade doing this. By the way, this is the way Forrest recommends setting up your saw.

   Rip a piece of hardwood so that you get a piece about 18 inches long and 3 or 4 inches wide. Unplug the saw. If you put that piece between the blade and the fence, and rotate the blade by hand, the teeth are probably slightly scraping the wood on both the near and far sides of the blade. What you want is an adjustment where the wood is not touching the blade on the far side ... a folded dollar bill between the fence and wood should make it touch.

   John

1. 
   Robbie | Jul 14, 2003 09:28pm | #9

   Had a similar problem when I owned a Delta Contractor saw.  Turned out that the arbor flange runout was about .004" - within spec, but just enough to cause some blade marks.  Had the arbor ground perfectly and after that my cuts were pure.

2. 
   forestgirl | Jul 14, 2003 10:49pm | #10

   John, I've seen this recommendation a number of times, but do not follow it.  Why?  Because I often need to move my fence to the other side of the blade for a cut, and if I set my fence rear-out, then it's not going to be functional when moved to the other side.  I've always thought of that particular adjustment to be more of a safety thing than a setting that's necessary for a quality cut.  I maximize safety in other ways -- pushblock, featherboards and/or holdowns.

   Also, when I've had rip-cut problems, adjusting the fence out did no good whatsoever.  It's always been a tune-up problem of one sort or another.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   johnhardy | Jul 15, 2003 01:38am | #11

   Interesting. I've asked the Oldham guy and the Forrest guy at the woodworking shows how they set their saw up (oh ... I also asked the Woodpecker guy the same thing) and the answer I got was to set it up like I described.

   If you need to move the fence to the other side, this is definitely a problem. However, I've never had to do that on my cabinet saw. Is this something that is peculiar to contractor saws? Mine is a left tilt Jet. And I use the Incra TS III fence. I'm locked in to the right side of the blade in more ways than one ... :)

   Oh, and congrats on your engagement. (I was going to reply to that thread, but figured I'd get a two for one and just do it here ... :)

   John

1. 
   forestgirl | Jul 15, 2003 02:55am | #12

   Thanks for the congrats, John.  However <g> if you want to go down in posterity in my scrap book, ya gotta post over there!

   I don't know if I reallly, reallllly need to move the fence over, but there certainly are times when that is the preference for me.  Of course most contractor's saws are right tilt.

   Ooops, I forgot to send Charles that note.  Gotta do it now.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   johnhardy | Jul 15, 2003 03:06am | #14

   Right tilt explains it. For a 90 degree cut, fence on the right. For an angled cut, you move the fence so that the wood doesn't get trapped between the blade and fence (kickback problem).

   That's why I bought the left tilt Jet.

   It'll be interesting to hear what Charles has to say about this. Could you also ask him about the "toe out" philosophy of setting the fence?

   John

2. 
   forestgirl | Jul 15, 2003 05:21am | #15

   I sent him the note awhile ago, but we can trap him in a corner and pummel him with questions when he arrives, LOL!  forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

3. 
   RANGERP75R | Jul 15, 2003 05:22am | #16

   john

      I'm curious to know about that 'toe-out thing also. The only kick-back I ever experienced was having a toe-in caused by my own in-attention resulting in a pinch between the fence an rear rising teeth.

      Inspired by Richard Jones (Sgain Dubh) I built a removable Euro short fence an installed it over my long fence. Then end of the fence only goes to a point about 3/4 of the way from the front of the blade to the center of blade. The cutting is done with the first 5 or 6 downward teeth. The fence extends about an inch beyond where the real cut ends. At that point the back of the stock is released to the area between the rear of the short fence an the long fence it sits on. It cannot twist or bind with the rear of those rear rising teeth at that point, so it is a much tidier affair than pushing the stock all the way past the blade. I do remove it an use the long fence for wide panel cuts.

   Have a good nite an I'm as curious as you are...

   sarge..jt

5. 
   forestgirl | Jul 15, 2003 03:05am | #13

   Eric I just got that note off the Charles from Freud, so hopefully he'll join us by tomorrow.  In the meantime, I'll be bold and ask:  How persnickety were you when you tuned your saw?  Just checking!  Also, not saying that it takes a bunch o' fancy tools either, I don't have anything more than a drafting triangle, my miter gauge and a clamp to do mine with, but the cutting results indicate it's right on.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   emaillard | Jul 15, 2003 07:28am | #17

   Forestgirl,

   I tuned the alignment to get the blade within 0.002" of the miter slot. I checked the harbor flange runout and got 0.0015". Nothing fancy for the measurments: I bought a dial indicator on e-Bay that I clamp to the miter gauge.

   I tried the rip fence both parallel to the miter slot and  John's setting. It seems that I get slightly better results with his, sorry ;-) Since I don't move the fence to the other side of the blade I can live with that.

   Eric

1. 
   charlesm | Jul 15, 2003 03:49pm | #18

   Eric,

   The LM72 is a heavy duty glue line rip blade designed for 3/4" to 2-3/4" stock. I think the term "glue line" may be part of the issue here. Yes, you should check your alignment (my take on this later) and be sure the blade height is about 1/2 tooth above the material but first your expectations have to match the product. We offer several rip blades, all with different intended results. The "best" rip cut comes from the F410 which is similar to the Forest WWII. The ripped edge is burnished smooth, but IME the pores of the wood are closed too tightly to accept glue. This makes the edge great for a finish cut but not for a strong glued panel. The other end of the spectrum is the LM72 which leaves a slightly roughed edge that accepts glue readily and produces a nearly invisible line when clamped and glued but would require secondary work to produce a finish edge. In between is the LM74 which produces a smooth edge and a glue line but is primarily for 1" stock and thinner. Therefore, the edge to expect from the LM72 is not slick (I don't know of any case where this blade has been advertised as such) but also shouldn't have saw marks deeper than a couple of thousandths of an inch and the finish should be consistent along the entire ripped edge. If there are marks at the beginning or end of the cut but not in the middle let me know and I'll give some possible causes but I'll assume that isn't the case. Obviously a defective blade can cause an inferior cut but there are also factors in your control that are possible causes. Alignment is the most common one. First I suggest aligning the blade to the miter slot and then the fence to the blade (not to the slot). This results in a more accurate setting. In theory the fence should be EXACTLY parallel to the blade. Since it is impossible in the real world to be exact, you should err on the side of caution and toe the fence out at the back by a hair (about .002" if you have precision instruments, more if you don't). Next check runout. The blade will have less than .003" and the saw will have a touch so you should verifiy this and expect less than .004" total. Now align the splitter per the saw's manual. Lastly set the blade height so the 1/2 a tooth is abpove the material and feed at a comfortable rate that doesn't load the saw but don't go so slowly that the wood burns (let the saw do the work).

   Sorry to be long-winded but I hope this helps.

   Charles M

   Freud, Inc.

1. 
   emaillard | Jul 15, 2003 07:04pm | #20

   Charles,

   Thanks a lot for your message. It does help a lot. Your explanation of the different models is really enlightening. Without knowing it, it seems I made the right choice since glue-ready is more important for me than the mirror finish. I use hand-planes for that. Anyway, I will proceed to an additional checking of the various alignments. I will also make sure I set the blade height according to your recommendations. BTW, the proper blade height is an issue I have been wondering about for a long time. I was unable to find an answer in the books I checked.  You are right in assuming that the marks are consistent along the edge. Being a beginner woodworker I am sure there is room for improvements in my techniques. I will work on that too.Eric

2. 
   forestgirl | Jul 15, 2003 07:39pm | #23

   Charles' post  has given us details that are never talked about in all the long discussions about glue-line rips and which blade is best.   The initial focus on the meaning of "glue-line" is especially helpful, IMO.

   The "best" rip cut comes from the F410 which is similar to the Forest WWII. The ripped edge is burnished smooth, but IME the pores of the wood are closed too tightly to accept glue. 

     It seems to me that many of us look for a super-smooth surface after ripping, and that's not necessarily the best thing to have.  If we're gluing up boards for a tabletop, there needs to be something for the glue to hold onto.  If ripping for an edge to be then exposed on the final piece, the ultra-smooth cut is in order. 

   I have the Freud Ultimate Crosscut blade, and although it produces a very mirror-like surface, it's not the blade I use when cutting, say, a miter that's then to be glued.  I'd have to sand the darn thing to accept glue.  I do use it when crosscutting, say, slats for a chair, like the one  I made last week.

   Thanks, Charles, for shedding lots o' light on these questions!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

3. 
   emaillard | Jul 21, 2003 11:25pm | #26

   Charles,

   Thanks to your valuable input on the rip blades you got me wondering about the crosscut one I was planing to buy next. I had my mind set on the LU85. I double checked and discovered the LU73. Could you please explain the difference and maybe even point to another one? Also I have the a priori impression that thin-kerf blades are more prone to wobbling. Is this true?

   Thanks,

   Eric

1. 
   charlesm | Jul 22, 2003 03:46pm | #27

   Eric,

   The LU85 is by far the smoothest crosscut blade we offer. In fact, I challenge any blade on the market to do better. The thing that sets it apart is the dual angle side grind. All carbide blade tips have top and side relief angles so they don't drag and burn in the cut. On the LU85 there is a very small area on the side of the teeth next to the face that is not relieved. This burnishes the wood as you cut and literally leaves it glass smooth. The only advantage of the LU73 would be that having less teeth (60 vs. 80) makes it more versatile (1/2" to 2-3/4" range for the LU73 vs. 1/4" to 1-5/8" for the LU85).

   When thin kerf blades were first introduced all blades were made by stamping out blanks from mild steel and they were somewhat susceptible to deflection. Some manufacturers still stamp blades but Freud laser cuts the blades from hardened steel so they are less prone to deflect in the cut.

   Charles M

   Freud, Inc.

2. 
   emaillard | Jul 22, 2003 06:54pm | #28

   Thanks Charles,

   Eric

3. 
   forestgirl | Jul 22, 2003 07:13pm | #29

   Eric, I have the Freud LU85, and the cuts are phenomenal.  So phenomenal, in fact, that the surface needs some roughing-up if it needs to be glued (e.g., miter joint).  No sanding needed though for ends that remain exposed -- gorgeous.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

6. 
   eokie | Jul 15, 2003 03:53pm | #19

   By all means check everything (including your technique/method of pushing stock thru the saw). Blade wobble is highly suspect from what you describe (one of several possible causes). Clamp a small stick to your miter gauge, the end barely touching the side of the blade near the teeth. Slowly rotate the blade and note hi-lo points (and how bad the variance).

   Don't assume a stablizer is "flat", an old set I bought years ago from Grizzly were appreciably off.

   A feather board placed against your stock just prior to the tooth cutting point might help eliminate "pushing" errors you're making as the stock goes through the blade.

   Same can be said about the flatness of your fence (beyond alignment).

   Again, check everything. Assume nothing.

1. 
   emaillard | Jul 15, 2003 07:09pm | #21

   Edokie,

   I will try the featherboard. My technique is probably far from perfect. The fence flatness is one thing I did not check so far. I will look into that. Thanks.

   Eric

2. 
   emaillard | Jul 21, 2003 09:50pm | #24

   Finally this week-end I was able to apply all the checking and tuning suggested. Here is what I found:

   - The stabilizer I was using gives a total runout of 0.007". Since I got a pair I tried the other one and got 0.0035".

   - The rip fence plastic sides are not that flat. I checked both and the right one is better than the left so I switched them.

   - The mounting plate for the splitter that is inside the saw was not square. To get the splitter aligned with the blade I was bending the splitter by forcing the alignment using the back mounting plate. I fixed it. Now the splitter is aligned and straight.

    The test cuts are better. Still some marks but very light. All that's left to improve is my technique...

   Thanks again to all of you for all the help

   Eric

1. 
   BG | Jul 21, 2003 10:20pm | #25

   Eric,

   I've lurking around your thread to see what I could learn....lots.  My shop fox classic, I believe, is a lot like your PM fense.  On mine there are two set screws for adjusting the fense lead...both screws need to be adjusted the same amount in a direction to either open or close the lead.  I have mine set slight open for the right side of the blade....and turn both screws a 180 degree when I move the fense to the left side of the blade....this I got from the Shop Fox manual.

   Lastly, I'm not sure this will help the burning, one last thing to check.  Put the blade at 45 degree angle and measure right miter slot to blade at both the front and back of blade by rotating the tooth of the blade....this will tell you if your table needs shiming or not. 

7. 
   BlakeW | Jul 15, 2003 07:15pm | #22

   Eric,I wonder if it's a T/S issue.I too have the 64A with a brand new Forrest WW2 and I have yet to rid myself of the saw marks.I've tried another Forrest(and various other brands)and to no avail.If you figure it out,please drop me a line.Thanks!

   Blake