Replies

1. 
   Alan | Nov 15, 2003 02:58am | #1

   Wanda,

   Water in any form will almost always "raise the grain" and create the fuzzies you describe.  Many first-rate finishers routinely dampen raw wood to deliberately raise the grain for them to sand off.  They tell me it makes for a smoother surface and a better finish.  So far as I know (and I don't know much) there's no option but to sand them off.  The good news is that 180 or 220 paper or so will do the job.

   Whether you will need to re-stain it, of course, depends on what it looks like after you've sanded off the raised fibers.  Fortunately enough, water based concoctions generally penetrate very well, so it may not be necessary to even out the stain.

   I don't know about water based finishes on pine--or on anything else, I avoid water-based stuff.  The best blotch preventer I know is shellac.  I routinely use a thin coat of shellac on pine, cherry, and anything else I'm afraid might stain unevenly.

   Alan

1. 
   HenryVIII | Nov 15, 2003 06:33am | #2

   Wanda,

   Unlike Alan, I use waterborne stains, dyes, and finishes almost exclusively.  It has been my experience that raising the grain before you apply the stain/dye is the only way to go.  I use a pretty damp cloth and wipe down the piece after the final sanding step.  This removes any sanding dust and raises the grain.  Wait until the water dries and then take some fine sandpaper and VERY GENTLY sand off only the raised "hairs".  If you sand too much, when the stain/dye is applied, the grain will pop up again and look like my chin late in the day.

   Also, MinWax makes a "pre-stain wood conditioner" for water borne stains that is wondermous.  I use it on pine or any other wood that tends to blotch.  I also use it on the end grain of dovetailed carcases.  It works very well, it's cheap, and it's easy to use.

   Hope this was some help,

   Enery

1. 
   Wanda200 | Nov 15, 2003 05:41pm | #3

   Hi,

   Thanks for the tips. I'll try giving the nightstand a very light sanding with 220 grit paper to remove the raised wood fibers. You're right about the stain penatrating deeper than the oil based stain.  I've decided that the nightstand doesn't need another coat of stain. But it does need to be sanded before I apply the finish coat. Is it ok to use a tac cloth to get rid of the dust particles before applying the Polyurethane? MiniWax Polyurethane is ok to apply over waterbased stains I hope.

   I think the next time I decide to stain I'm going to use shellac so I don't have to worry about blothcing. I'm lucky that I didn't end up with serioius blotching. better to be safe than sorry.  I think sometimes it would be a lot easier to stain the pieces before assembling the final project. trying to apply stain evenly on vertical and horizontal pieces is tricky. More stain ends up pooling in the corners.

   Wanda

1. 
   HenryVIII | Nov 16, 2003 04:37am | #5

   I'm assuming you plan to use water borne polyurethane.  In that case DON'T use tack cloth to pick up the dust.  Tack cloths are good, but only for oil - based stains and finishes.

   I don't think you will have any success with oil based polyurethane over water borne stain, either.  The only place I know of that you can get by with mixing solvents is with house paints.  Water borne latex will go over oil based primers, but that's the only time I'm sure you can get by with it.

   One of the reasons I use water borne products is that they dry quickly.  I do woodwork as a business, and among other things I need is to get the stuff finished and out the door in a reasonable time.  I can spray a coat of water borne polyurethane MinWax or other, and it is dry before anything can get on it and stick to the finish.  I can do two or three coats of poly in an afternoon, and deliver the piece 24 hours after the final coat.

   I'm currently doing a job on some buggy wheels (don't ask...) and using oil based stain and spar polyurethane.  According to the stain directions, I have to wait min. 4 hours to put another coat of stain, and 24 hours for the poly.  The manufacturer recommends 3 coats, with 12 hours between coats, which means I can't get the finish applied in fewer than two days.  With waterborne, I have to wait 12 hours between staining and poly, but I can get 3 coats of poly on in 1 day.

   Hope this helps.

1. 
   Clay | Nov 18, 2003 05:35am | #7

   "I don't think you will have any success with oil based polyurethane over water borne stain, either.  The only place I know of that you can get by with mixing solvents is with house paints.  Water borne latex will go over oil based primers, but that's the only time I'm sure you can get by with it." <<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

   I have used oil based polyurethanes over water stains regularly for many years with consistent success.  I "mix solvents" on many if not most jobs.  Of course when a water stain is dried there is no solvent present.  I assure you that they are used constantly under both oil and water based finishes of every sort imaginable.  If anything I would reccommend sealing with an oil based product before topcoating with waterborne finishes to avoid reactivating the water stain.  Even that is a minor concern though.  I use water based products over oil based products all the time too (not water stains though ... they are only for bare wood surfaces).

2. 
   HenryVIII | Nov 18, 2003 05:57am | #8

   Clay,

   Thanks for the info.  I didn't know, and had had no reason to try it out.  I spray nearly everything with a compressor powered HVLP sprayer, and have had no problem with the water borne poly reactivating the stain.  It helps to put on a thin coat first and then begin the build up.

   I'm understanding that you have put water borne stains, then a solvent based sealer, then water borne poly top coat, is that right ?  That seems to me to be an extra step (read "extra time and expense") that I haven't found necessary.  Of course, I'm not doing production runs, only one or two at a time.  The extra time for the solvent based sealer to dry would be my biggest problem.

   Thanks again for teaching me something new today.

3. 
   Clay | Nov 18, 2003 06:14am | #9

   I don't use a sealer just go straight over the water stains with polyurethane.  They have no problems adhering to the waterstained surfaces.  There is no resist problem ... if anything waterstained surfaces are thirsty.  if you are using water borne stains that is different.  They are water borne suspensions of oil based products.  Again though there will not likely be any problems using polyurethanes over them (assuming that you have allowed sufficient time for good drying).  I have even often used polyurethanes for topcoating acrylic faux painting on walls.  I am currently having a little honeymoon with "Breakthrough" (water based) for this use though.

4. 
   Wanda200 | Nov 20, 2003 03:13am | #10

   Hi Guys,

   Thanks Alan for the info on shellac.  Just thought I'd pass this along to Clay and Enery the eighth.... I had no problem applying the Polyurethane over the waterbased stain. Looks pretty good actually. The only problem I encountered were dust "nibs"/ specks settling on the finish coat. I guess the only way to avoid that would be to spray on the finish.  A completely dust proof room wouldn't be half bad either. I was careful to vacuum the room but that doesn't seem to help. There is still dust lingering around the shop.  The nightstand looks much better now that it has 2 coats of polyurethane applied to it.  Didn't look too great when I applied the first coat of  colonial maple waterbased stain. I wasn't sure if I could live with that colour. It sure had a very  orange tone to it. But after the first application of poly the colour was transformed. It really highlighted the grain in the wood.  I'm quite pleased with the final results. And had I used shellac / woodconditioner before staining I'd be 100% pleased with finished product. 

   I've got so much to learn when it comes to finishing furniture. But you can only learn by doing. It's fun to experiment with different finishes and stains. 

   Thanks again for all your imput

   Wanda200b

5. 
   Clay | Nov 20, 2003 07:30am | #11

   I am glad that it worked out for you Wanda.  When you are working on your next project try to save a piece (or two) of wood or ply that matches the project material and is sanded the same way for a trial sample.  That will enable you to correct most mistakes before you start finishing the project piece.

6. 
   Alan | Nov 22, 2003 01:53am | #12

   Wanda,

   Those specks and nibs and nits are practically unavoidable when using any sort of varnish, oil or poly.  For metaphysical reasons that arose with the making of the cosmos, dust is attracted to freshly varnished surface like Clinton to interns.  I've never been able to avoid them, no matter how carefully I swept, dusted and vacuumed, and how much I sprinkled the floors and misted the air.

   The only way to get rid of them is by rubbing out the varnish.  To do that....nah!  Never mind.  We've already caused you too much work.

   Alan

7. 
   Wanda200 | Nov 22, 2003 10:19pm | #13

   Hi Alan,

   Actually the "nibs", dust specks were not too bad this time around. The surface came out very smooth. I was amazed.

   I have a question for you guys concerning shellac. I just finished reading an article on shellac in the Dec issue of Finewoodworking.  After talking to a friend of mine who sells antique furniture for a living and does a lot of refinishing work I'm more confused than ever. He told me that shellac doesn't have the durability of other finishes. Nor does it enhance the beauty of antique furniture. I was advised not to waste my time with shellac. He uses lacquer. I'v seen his work and I'd have to agree lacquer really brings a piece of antique furniture to life. looks spectacular!!!!!! This man  does wonderful finishing work.   I guess everyone has their own preference when it comes to finishing. He also advised me to stay away from waterbased stains.   So now I'm wondering what's really better .....   Shellac or Laquer. I've got one expert from Finewoodworking who favours using shellac and one expert who wouldn't use it at all.

   one other thing..... I asked him about applying a thin coating of shellac over pine to help prevent blotching. He said if I wanted to stain the pine applying a coating of shellac would seal the wood and the stain wouldn't penetrate. I found that kind of hard to believe since I just finished reading an article on How to prevent Blotching when staining highly figured woods like pine and cherry which are notorious for blotching. The article advised applying a thin coating of shellac #2 cut  before staining to prevent blotching.  who's right and who's wrong??????????????? 

   Wanda

8. 
   Alan | Nov 24, 2003 01:55am | #14

   Wanda,

   I think you need another wood finishing friend.

   Shellac was the usual finish for about everything not too long ago.  The beautiful antiques we all salivate over in museums and expensive antique shops are likely finished with shellac.  I'm sure we've all seen a French polished piece and wished we knew how.  But then your friend would say the shellac didn't do anything to enhance the beauty of those items--presumably even the French polished stuff.  He also would denounce the pieces I've made that are finished with shellac and wax that I rather like.  (No wonder I think you need another friend.)

   As to who's right about using shellac to prevent blotching, well...they both are.  If you use store-bought shellac straight out of the can, usually a three pound cut, any stain will be fighting the orange color of the shellac, and not be able to penetrate very much.  But a thin coat of shellac, a one or one-half pound cut, will prevent blotching but the wood will still take a stain.  The stain will not be quite as dark, or red, or golden or whatever, as it would be on raw wood, but that's actually a good thing.  After you've put on one coat of stain you can apply another wash coat of shellac and put on another coat of stain (you can do this with the store-bought shellac too, of course).  You need not use the same color stain the second time.  The two stains will not mix and turn muddy as they would without the barrier coat of shellac between them.  This allows you to produce some very deep and wonderful colors.  Also, you can get different "colors" of shellac, which can act as the first layer of color.

   I don't know about lacquer on top of shellac.  I don't use lacquer; if I use a film finish over shellac I always use varnish.   Lacquer has a "too plastic" look for me--as does poly and varnish that hasn't been rubbed out.  Poly is much better than it used to be, but it still looks green to me, and is difficult or impossible to rub out (hard to rub out, plastic appearance, green:  STRIKE THREE!  You're outta dere!)

   Alan (once again going on WAY too long)

9. 
   Tao | Nov 24, 2003 05:22am | #15

   To elaborate on Alan's answer, most furniture from the 19th Century up through the 1920's was finished with shellac, in one form or another.  I am right now repairing the french polish finish on a rosewood piano made in the 1860's.  The finish is in great shape except where someone set a plant on the top and let it leak for months.  I guarantee a nitrocellulose lacquer would have sustained identical damage, or worse.  The only real disadvantage shellac has is resistance to alcohol, which is poor.  I have a side table in my house that was made around 1740, and the shellac finish is still excellent, although I can't say exactly when it was applied.  There was a great craze for French polishing in the Mid 19th century.

   On the other hand, I see a lot of kitchens finished with cheap nitro lacquer that has failed in less than five years.  A lot of it depends on the quality of material and the application.  The biggest advantage of lacquer is speed.  It is usually sprayed, and dries quickly.  Usually looks good, too, and some formulations are very durable, although all nitrocellulose lacquers yellow quite a bit..

   I hope your friend who refinishes antiques with lacquer confines himself to industrially made pieces that were originally finished with lacquer, or which are so common that originality doesn't factor into value.  With a piece of any value, I try to repair or restore the original finish, rather than refinish with an inappropriate material.

   Not many finishes are intrinsically "better" than others.   It depends on what characteristics are desired.  Catalyzed finishes, for example, are extremely durable, but hard to repair, and even harder to refinish.  "Oil" finishes aren't very durable, but they give a certain look that many people like, and they are easy to repair.  I use lots of different finshes, depending on what's most appropriate.

   Decide what characteristics you want, and what application method you have available to you, and the appropriate finish will become apparent pretty quickly.  Get ahold of Bob Flexner's "Understanding Wood Finishes" and a couple of Jeff Jewitt's finishing books.  They'll steer you straight from the start.  And avoid the advice of people who say there's only one "best" method.  They are usually ignorant hacks.

   The only finish that I never use is oil based poly.  Can't stand the look, it dries ti slow, and doesn't have any traits that aren't matched by other materials that look better and are easier to apply.  But that's personal opinion.

   Michael R

10. 
    Wanda200 | Nov 30, 2003 03:01am | #16

    Hi,

    You guys have given me a lot to think about. LOL  I have a piece of antique furniture probably dating back to around 1920. I"m not sure. It's a vanity with a mirrow. 6 drawers and one middle drawer with brass handles on the drawers. Very attractive piece that would look real nice in the bedroom. The antique dealer said it would cost $500.00 to refinish. I'm thinking I might attempt to refinish it myself. Where would I begin.

    Do I strip it down to the bare wood with an antique wood stripper? The top of the vanity has a waterstain and the finish is crinkled. The finish that's on it is worn. I think this particular piece is made of mahogony. I'm no expert on Wood species so I'm not sure.

    Would it be best to refinish the entire piece? I think it's beyond just touch ups here and there. How should I go about refinishing this piece of furniture?????? Help please.

    Wanda

    PS... I've heard of Jeff Jewitt, I'd love to have one of his books. Better yet I need to attend a seminar on woodfinishing. Shame we don't have any classes like that where I live. Bob Flexner's book would also be great to have.

2. 
   Wanda200 | Nov 15, 2003 05:54pm | #4

   Hi Alan,

   Do you have a particular preference when it comes to brand names. I think the next time I do any staining I'm going to brush on shellac.  What's the best type of shellac to use on Pine? I was reading an article last night about how to apply shellac. it used a #2 shellac mixed with 2 parts shellac and 1 part denatured alcohol. Does shellac work the same way as  woodconditioner? ( what are the differences between a shellac and a woodconditioner?) Can you apply a wax finish over shellac?

   If you wanted you could  use shellac without having to apply a topcoat of poly, couldn't you? The only good thing about using waterbased stains is the low  odour. Think I'll stick with using oil based stains for now. They are so easy to apply. Guess it's just what I'm used to. The miniwax oil based stain I used on my last project looked really great. It's always good to try new things.

   Wanda

1. 
   Alan | Nov 17, 2003 03:12am | #6

   Wanda,

   I don't think brands mean anything with shellac.  Shellac is shellac.  The only thing I would advise is for you to mix your own.  Pre-mixed shellac--the kind you would get at your local paint store--has a shelf life.  Six months is about the limit for mixed shellac.  Too old and it won't dry hard, if it dries at all.

   Buy shellac flakes and mix it yourself.  Shellac flakes will outlast the human race; the stuff never goes bad.  You also have a choice of several "colors" of shellac:  it comes in everything from nearly clear to a deep, dark chocolate brown.

   You mix dry shellac with denatured alcohol in various proportions.  A "three pound cut" (what you probably will find at the store) is the ratio of three pounds of shellac flakes to one gallon of alcohol.  Mixing your own you can make only the amount you need, in the "cut" you need.  For a first, anti-blotching coat I generally mix up about a one pound cut--or even a one-half pound cut.  After that I generally mix up about a two pound cut.

   As for putting an oil based poly over water based dye...Beats me.  So long as the dye is completely dry I don't know why it would matter.  But I'm certainly not an expert.  As for poly...well...if you can't say anything nice...

   Alan