Processing panels with 20″ planer
I am a one man shop and build cabinets and doors. I am considering buying a entry level G1033x 20″ shelix planer to reduce my panel processing time (from rough lumber to final thicknessed laminated panel). I would face and edge joint my lumber, glue up panels, and finally plane to final thicknes. I am thinking of a shelix to eliminate tearout and help if I glue in a board with reverse grain. I’m looking for feedback on using this technique. A couple questions are:
what size dust collector (will a decicated 1hp work)?
can snipe be pretty much eliminated?
how does shelix deal with reverse grain?
how do carbide knives deal with dried glue (TBIII)?
should boards be same thickness before laminating?
how do Grizzly’s spiral cutterheads compare with competition?
should I be considering a industrial planer with segmented chip breakers?
Note: I am using shelix as reference to carbide spiral cutterheads in general.
Thanks,
Nathan
Replies
Dear Nathan,
I have do not have a planer with a Shelix, nor do I process materials in the manner that you suggest, but I have a jointer (6") with the afore mentioned cutterhead and can comment upon its performance.
First of all I think that your approach is sound and that you will find the Shelix to be a pleasant change. My experience is at a commercial level, where time is money and therefore I don't want to be fooling around with blade setting. I have also found the Byrd indexes to be VERY sharp (Careful!) and almost unbelievably tough. I have jointed plywood, composite decking, painted materials, all stuff that you shouldn't do along with Ipe, Brazilian Cherry, Oak, maple, bla, bla, bla............ the usual suspects. I think that you will find that the shelix head lives up to its advertising, (unlike most things). It is quieter, reduces tearout, will cut through glue and what not. I have had mine now for six or seven years and have rotated mabe 10 of the indexes with no replacements yet. Byrd is also a top notch company to deal with. I had some questions and they put in touch with the owner who spent a good half an hour or so answering my questions.
Nothing but happy here.
Best,
John
I think I'll have to look at one of those cutterheads for my DJ20 when it comes time to change blades!Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I spent a lot of years working in shops with heavy duty equipment. In addition to gang rip saws, HF glue tables and a large planer, we had widebelt sanders. With the widebelt, you could glue up rough panels and not have to worry about grain direction, tearout from the planer, etc. Now I work in a small home shop. I don't need to process 100's of panels a day and I can't afford the large equipment, the space and electricity to run it. I simply had to stop thinking in that manner. A large planer isn't going to solve all the problems in gluing up in the rough. You are bound to need 22" panels, sometimes. If you are not a production shop, you probably want to put out a better panel.
There are a lot of things that I now do differently than I would in a large shop. In many cases, I get a much better product. Planing the lumber before glue up allows better color matching, gives a flat surface that you can register on the jointer and allows you to see grain direction more easily. It also puts a lot less strain on the planer, reduces maintenence and eliminates issues like snipe and tearout. It's just a matter of how you do the glue up to keep panels flat.
Some years ago, I bought a large Performax sander, hoping that could help with sanding out panels and other work. At the time, it was the only game in town. It proved to be a disaster. Now there are other choices. If I needed to do lots of panels in my work, I would look for a better sander before upgrading my planer. There are all kinds of models, new and used in a wide range of prices, buy or lease.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Can you elaborate on your experience with the Performax? I had considered drum sanders, such as the Performax, but aren't sold yet based on the varied opinions that I hear. Currently I plane the boards to final thickness then laminate the panels. Following I belt sand (4x24) and ROS (6"). The process works well, but takes time. I was thinking that a larger planer (currently 12" lunchbox) would allow me to prep the wood, maybe a couple passes to get within 1/8", then laminate, followed by the planing the entire panel to thickness. The spiral cutter would ensure that I don't get tearout.
I pretty much agree with Hammer1. I spent 35 years in factories and small custom shops and have done panels every way you can do them.
For a small shop I find the best way is to be more careful with glue ups. I typically plane the boards to finish thickness and glue them up so all I have to do is scrape off the glue and sand to remove the planer marks. I find it kind of puzzling that so many people tend to run the glued up panels through a planer. I can glue up a 4'x 8' panel in one shot and it's lined up prefect. I find that having a planer the width of my jointer is all I need. Already I've saved a ton of money in equipment instead of buying a large planer.
A properly adjusted palner will not snipe.
I've also run widebelts, drum sanders and stroke sanders. My first choice for the small shop would be a stroke sander. Much better and far more verstaile than a drum sander and far cheaper. Belt changes are a simple as you can get. Also the finish is superior and pieces off the stoke sander can go right into finishing. Parts off a drum sander must be hand or random orbit sanded before finishing.
I do have quite a bit of experience with Performax. Used to work for a dealer servicing machines and dealt with Performax when they were still owned by the original inventor Bill Green. I used to trouble shoot local Performax owners who didn't have a clue how to run them.
Helical heads are not a complete cure foryour problems. A change in your work process with what you have will yield just as a remarkable change in your product. I highly recommend the stroke sander to your arsenal of tools. It will give the most dramatic improvement in quality and speed to your product. The biggest bang for your buck.
what size dust collector (will a decicated 1hp work)? There should be a cfm chart to tell you what to use. The dust collection folks have that info.
can snipe be pretty much eliminated? Snipe has nothing to do with the cutterhead. Mainly it's having the bedrolls higher than .003" and also an improperly set pressure bar and improperly set feed rolls. Order listed is key to snipe and snipe removal.
how does shelix deal with reverse grain? Helical will be fine with reverse grain as long as the feed is slow. I can run simlars boards through my Rockwell 18" planer because I can slow the feed down more than most planers. I can get tear out on a helical head if I feed to fast.
how do carbide knives deal with dried glue (TBIII)?
should boards be same thickness before laminating? Laminating would be considered a different operation such as bent lamination. Standard panel glue ups work best if all the same thickness.
how do Grizzly's spiral cutterheads compare with competition? Have access to a Northtech and would put it on par with a grizzly. Works fine but I can get tearout if the feed is too fast.
should I be considering a industrial planer with segmented chip breakers? Segmented chip breakers fo along with segmented infeed rolls which is for running multiple boards of different thicknesses through the planer. You are a one man shop. Running boards through willy nilly isn't going to gain you much.
Rick,Could you explain when the stroke sander would be used during the construction process? Presumably you would have to sand the panel before putting it in the frame to get the back of the panel. Would you have to change grits between glueup and final sanding (I currently go to 80 belt to 120g ROS). How often would you change the belts and graphite (every other kitchen, etc.) Would it actually eliminate the need to RO sand? Also, would you sand the door and frames once glued up, if so what about crossgrain on the rails?Cheers,
Nathan
Could you explain when the stroke sander would be used during the construction process? Presumably you would have to sand the panel before putting it in the frame to get the back of the panel. You would sand the back of the panel before assembley. Basically it doesn't change the process. It is just a better more efficient tool.
Would you have to change grits between glueup and final sanding (I currently go to 80 belt to 120g ROS). Belt changes are less than a minute compared to a drum sander. Of course you would change belts. Do all your first pass with 80 grit then resand with 120 grit.
How often would you change the belts and graphite (every other kitchen, etc.)
The graphite lasts many kitchens. You change the belts as needed. They last a long time. Think of it as a giant belt sander but it gives a much nicer finish than a belt sander will.
Would it actually eliminate the need to RO sand? In general yes.
Also, would you sand the door and frames once glued up, if so what about crossgrain on the rails? A light touch with a ROS to fix any scratches would be all that's required.
In every shop that had a widebelt we had at least one stroke sander. One shop had four stroke sander and a widebelt. The widebelt could never repalce the stroke sander. The stoke sander can easily repalce the drum sander. The stroke sander isn't a thicknesser and neither is a drum sander. The drum sander leaves small ripples like a planer which would still have to be random orbit sanded.
I'll second what others have already said. Learn how to glue up your panels so that they are flat right out of the clamps, that way you only need to sand them lightly for cosmetic reasons not to flatten them out, you'll save yourself a lot of time and machinery.
When I glue up a panel I only need to touch it up with a cabinet scraper at the seams and then sand with sandpaper and a block, no power tools at all. I doubt if I spend even 5 minutes per side.
John W.
Hi John, efficiency is the name of the game. I have built hundreds of doors, and, with biscuits, get the panels glued fairly evenly. Even five minutes per side times 50 panels = 8+ hours, and that doesn't include sanding the glued up doors/frames. Right now making the doors is the least efficient component of my cabinet making business. I am weighing my options for either optimizing my time (without making a major investment on tools ($10k)- ie: no wide belt) or subbing out the doors. I really like Rick's suggestion of a stroke sander. I can see spending $2k to cut my total sanding time from 10 min/door to 2-3 minutes. This would be a significant improvement. The other time consuming part of making doors is preparing stock for laminating. Currently process includes rough cutting components (length), face & edge joint, rip second edge, resaw on TS, resaw on 14" BS, plane to final thickness (on 12" benchtop). This is a fairly time consuming process - although faster than taking a 8x 1/16" passes on the planer to go from 1 1/8" to 5/8". Perhaps a planer upgrade is still in order. Anyway, time is money and I am always striving to be more efficient at how I do things.
Less than 10k... Have you looked at these? http://www.grizzley.com/products/24-Wide-Belt-Sander-Platen-Model/G0582I have it's little brother :http://www.grizzley.com/products/15-Wide-Belt-Sander-Open-End-/G9983Good, solid machine IMHOScott W.
First thing I'd do is get rid of the biscuits. That's a time waster right there. I use curved cauls to align my panels and that just uses regular bar clamps and quick clamps and doesn't take any longer to glue up. Streamlining is the key. I've never used biscuits for edge gluing in 35 years.
You should check on subbing out the doors. A door shop should be able to make them cheaper than you can so focus on cabinets and marketing. As long as you give them the right measurements they are responsible. I know lots of shops hate to give up the control.
The stroke sander is a good way to speed up production. I do consider it a way to speed up production. It does take some paractice but what doesn't. It's certainly afforable. I've seen used ones go for scrap metal prices. It will alsodo radius sanding with a j weight belts. We used to do lots of prfile sanding with ours. Profile of raised panels. Sanding the dovetails on drawers. Your only limit is your imagination and practice with the machine to learn the skills to master it.
Rick, what is the thickness and taper of are your cowels (from center to edge)?I think you're right about getting rid of the biscuits. I've found you have to be super careful where you place the biscuits. A couple kitchens back I put them too close to the edge and cut into them when raising the panels. I then nearly wrote off my bit after filling them with epoxy and sawdust and re-routing the epoxy.Also, can you explain how you prepare stock for laminating:
Do you joint full length boards, or cut them into pieces first?
Do you resaw or just hog off material on the planer?
How heavy a cut to you take (I assume you have a floor model planer)?
How do you deal with all the chips (describe your dust collection system)?
Lastly, when assembling doors, do you pin the styles and remove from clamps when still wet?Nathan
They are cauls! Maple cauls 1" x 2" tall x 48" long. Approximate 1/8" radius as long as they are all the same. Make one as a master template. You put the curved edges toward each other. Cauls are worked in pairs. The technique goes back 100 years for veneering with clamps.
Laminating is a different process. You are doing edge or panel glue ups. If you can glue up a longer panel and cut it down into 3 or 4 panels it often saves time. Many times you will have many doors close to the same size.
Resawing adds more time. Stick with stock that's close to thickness or you will have warping issues. It's standard milling practices. No different than most every shop does. I just allow a few extra pieces for warped, twisted. Same procedure for using a lunch box planer or a 20" PM. I plane to finished thickness before gluing up so therefore I don't have to worry about tearout when trying to plane wide panels. It's not efficient or necessary.
You can pin the rails or just have two or three set ups going. In an hour you can take off the clamps. I typically pin the panels in the center of the rails instead of spaceballs.
The other thing I like is loose tenon joinery for the rails and stiles. Slot mortisers save tons of time rather than trying to tenon on the saw. Get one of these before the stroke sander...
http://www.lagunatools.com/platinum3.htm
If you are using cope and stick you can get away without a slot mortiser. It's a great option to reinforce a cope and stick door if rhe door is an oversized pantry door. I've seen enough times where folks have kids and they break the cope and stick joint from abuse.
I've been using the slot mortiser for 25 years long before the Festool Domino. I prefer the stationary machine. Getting rid of biscuits, making flatter panels and a slot mortiser will increase your production the quickest. More than a new planer would ever do so.
Dust system is immaterial wheter you shovel your chips or empty the hopper.
Get rid of the biscuits!!!
Edited 2/20/2008 11:04 am ET by RickL
Do you apply a molding to the inside edges of the door frames, or miter the frames? I use profiled matching cope and stick bits so I don't think floating tenons would work for my style of doors. Perhaps you could explain. How much would you remove per pass on the planer?
http://woodcentral.com/shots/shot52.shtml
Loose tenons certainly can apply or one could use dowels to reinforce the joint. If you use cope and stick it's a way to reinforce the joint. Ever have a kid swing on a large cope and stick pantry door????? It breaks!
You do rough plane, then sticker the wood for a period to acclimate the wood, then finish plane???
If you don't have the time at least try to take off the same amount from each side.
Edited 2/20/2008 1:04 pm ET by RickL
Well, last night I jointed and planed 154 ft of maple, full board lengths. Certainly saves time doing full boards, but my 6" jointer and 12 1/2" lunchbox planer are killing me. The 6" jointer isn't wide enough, went through a set of blades in one night, and doesn't have the power to hog off 1/8" unless the blades are new. The portable planer is slow and can't take off more than 1/16". That's why I am considering a 3hp 15" spiral. Hopefully it can easily take off 1/8" at 12" wide. Nobody has been able to confirm this though. I did build a trash can separator the night before and it works wonders with my 1hp DC. I filled it 8x in 3 hrs with only a couple inches making it into the dust collector. I think with a new jointer and planer I could have cut those 3 hrs in half. Any comments?P.S. I don't rough plane, as you described.
A spiral head takes less power. It should be fine. I don't understand why you don't contact Grizzly or one of the other helical plnaer dealers and find someone local you can go to see one in action and actually run the board through. You need a bigger jointer. Have you considered the Grizzly Combo. Personally I never need a planer any wider than the jointer.
You do realize the carbide inserts last 8-10 times longer than HSS and you have 4 edges. Not too mention less knife changes. Do the math on sharpening savings, knife change labor, etc.
I'm about to rotate the knives on a Northtech helical head planer that's been running for at least 3 years at a local school.
I'll try and hog off as big a cut as possible before I change the knives which won't be until Friday night.
You do want to take off equal amounts of stock on each board to minimize warping later.
Rick is correct. Quit using biscuits. That process takes up a lot of time especially when you have to layout to avoid a biscuit when you raise a panel.
Paul
Nathan,
My advice would be pretty much along the lines of what has already been said.
We plane door panels to final thickness before glue-up, and afterwards run them through a drum sander, taking off about 0.2 mm each side just to clean them up perfectly. (Minimax 20" sander with platten). Before we had this sander we used a stroke sander, and if I were a 1-man shop again I'd definitely go back to that system.
There's been some discussion of stroke sanders lately. Like Rick, I am a devotee of the machine, but because it requires a certain knack and sensitivity it is not a real "production" machine. For a 1-man craftsman shop it is perfect.
Our shop has been using an SCMI 20" thickness planer for some 10 years. This year we had the good fortune to get a 24" monster with replaceable carbide cutters on helix heads (it planes 2 sides at once). I wouldn't get any planer today that did not have this system. Smooth cuts, quiet, long-lasting, and no sharpening. It wins hands down.
Your planer manufacturer should give the recommendation for DC hook up. I can tell you that our 20" SCMI uses a 2HP unit with 5" hoses.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
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