Can anyone speak to the profit margins in woodworking?
I was recently told that the most lucrative side of the biz is in cash and carry i.e. things that can be picked up at a shop and carried away.
After that is framing photos and art.
Hard to believe when a kitchen cabinet job goes for 10k.
Any thoughts?
-bb
Replies
Price out a kitchen cabinet job from materials to labor. I think you'll find that the margins there are fairly slim. $10,000 doesn't sound like much if it cost you $9,999 to provide the product.
So right. And somebody can out bid you if they drop the quote to $9998 and cost is $9998.Then they'll get the job.-bb
I think "woodworking" and "profit margin" are an oxymoron.
Remember, you should never confuse your labor i.e., your rate per hour with profit, they are not the same thing. And I have not seen many custom kitchens that go for $10K that much might do the island, maybe.
There are two flavors of profit, gross profit and net profit.
There is a markup, and there is a margin. One is calculated on the COGS, the other is calculated on the final sale price.
They are four different animals.
They are static, meaning they are a snapshot of a given financial position at a given time, and therefore instantly become history. The only time they stay current for more than an instant is when they represent a financial position at the close of business, and then they only stay current until the next start of business.
The reason I'm saying all this is to make these two points: one, you use the four indicators for different purposes at different times. Therefore, you would need to be more specific about what information you are really seeking, and what specific conclusion you are attempting to arrive at.
The second point is that when someone makes a statement like "the most lucrative side of woodworking is cash and carry..." and so on and so forth, that you just write that source off as useful, because the statement carries so many errors from a business standpoint that it's meaningless.
And finally, a fairly basic business error is to read only one side of the ledger. If you only read the income portion of your statement, you will celebrate when you read that you've made more than a million dollars in income.
Until you read that you've spent three million in expenses.
I suggest you learn some basic accounting, I did it by reading books. I hated doing it, I don't like accounting, but it changed the way I look at business, and was well worth the effort.
Edited 8/25/2009 6:56 pm by Jammersix
-bb,
You asked which is the most lucrative ,
I think you would have to sell a lot of carry out items to make your monthly payments.
A production run item or items that all you make will be sold .
Larger ticket items custom made can fetch a larger paycheck , the $10.000 kitchen can support you for a month , one customer to deal with .
luck to you
dusty
Profits???? in woodworking????
I'm a trim carpenter and punch list guy by trade and do a fair amount of work building custom cabs for bars, built-ins, islands and the like. I wish I could get enough of the cabinetmaking to make a real living off it and charge accordingly. I love doing it and in fact end up working well below my standard hourly rate for trim and punch just to get the opportunity to do some.
If you want to get rich as a cabinet maker my advise is find a very rich woman who likes your work and MARRY her.
"Profits???? in woodworking????"Hmmm. I've got a woodworking business. I also write. And I also work in retail. No money in either of those fields, so I am told. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
<< If you want to get rich as a cabinet maker my advise is find a very rich woman who likes your work and MARRY her.>>
I have heard it said that the hardest way to earn your money is to marry into it. I wouldn't know.
Randy
I've also heard it is as easy to fall in love with a rich woman as a poor one.<< If you want to get rich as a cabinet maker my advise is find a very rich woman who likes your work and MARRY her.>><I have heard it said that the hardest way to earn your money is to marry into it. I wouldn't know.<Randy
The cash and carry market--with the expenses of operating a shop, producing for inventory, and producing items in some ways standardizable, and hence subject to direct competion--perhaps even by industrially produced items just can't be a winner on a wide scale. The exceptions, if there are any, are likely to be found in the high end of studio furniture and objects marketed through high-end galleries. Things too finely made for industrial competition to easily develop. Even there, I'd bet most makers would rather work on commission than sell through the gallery.
Otherwise, woodworkers need to remove themselves from competition by making custom items, things that only happen with the consultation of customer and maker or designer. But these means the woodworker isn't selling products per se he is selling him or her self. That is, in the BS language of business speak, selling solutions. Of course, there are about as many ways to do this as really successful woodworkers.
When I read "cash and carry," I thought of stuff like that sold at places like "Appalachian Spring."
http://www.appalachianspring.com/
wood bowls, wooden cooking implements like spoons and spatulas; jewelry boxes; cutting boards; etc.
I was in one the other day and saw a cutting board that was nothing more than a cleaned up piece of 8/4 walnut (roughly 12 x 16) and they were asking something like $125. Now, the woodworker probably only got a half to a third of that, but even so, that's a pretty handsome profit on a hunk of wood that was maybe $15 from the lumber supplier.
Anyway, I can imagine that if you had a good distribution system - got in at Appalachian Spring and the like - and could pump out small items like this, you make some money. I dunno? Anyone here with direct experience?
Edited 8/26/2009 9:58 am ET by Samson
Making cutting boards is a 'hard way to make an easy living'. No one who sets up a profitable shop did it by 'nickle and diming'. Making money takes money, and real money. Also connections, and building a reputation (deserved or not). Making money is about business, not what you sell. If you think in small potatoes, you will make small potatoes.Definitely, as far as I have seen, the most important aspect in custom work is charisma, and solutions: can you convince people that they want the solution you have come up with? Will they pay for it? Over and over?
There aren't any.
bb,
Your question is either of academic interest only, or it's misleading. There may be statistics somewhere about the profitability of various branches of woodworking, but they are quite irrelevant to any particular case unless you are about to invest in a multi-million dollar venture on a national scale. (And in that case I'd suggest you get some serious financial advice). On a personal level, it's all about where you are located, and what kind of niche you can develop for your business. I can tell you from my own experience that in certain circumstances doing custom kitchens can be quite profitable, while a cash-and-carry business can bankrupt you fast. For a small business, it all depends...
Most small workshops do not correctly understand what it is that they are actually selling. Superficially, my shop makes kitchens. But actually, we are selling the experience of working with us to create a custom kitchen. There's a huge difference. And because it's all personal, there's no statistics that can accurately reflect the potential profitability.
Maybe you should redefine what it is you really want to know.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
This question, or very similar, crops up from time to time, and always gets a run because it's a topic many of us have an interest in, and an opinion about.
I've 'made a living' as a bespoke furniture maker, although I'm now a recreational woodworker.
There are some key insights:
- not many of us can make a good living just from the craft of working wood
- many of the pros sustain their craft with teaching, or another salary, or a working spouse
- you are selling a skill, solutions; not a product. This is about you, much more than what you make
- there are as many approaches as there are woodworkers - but there are some business fundamentals (outlined well in earlier responses in this string) that no-one can hide from
- If you are competing with 'China', or even your friend down the road, you're on a hiding to nothing - 'competition' and 'craft' are fundamentally incompatible.
Dinner time
Malcolm
blades,
Years ago, I had an epiphany of sorts. I realised that the most common way for artists to succeed was to do something once, then sell it over and over again. Think of a painter who creates a landscape, then sells 1000 prints of that landscape, or a sculptor who has multiple bronzes cast of his work. Unfortunately, not too many folks seem to want a picture of a chest of drawers, so a woodworker must make them over and over to sell them over and over. What is the solution?
That's why teaching is becoming so popular. The woodworking teacher can create a product (curriculum) and sell it to a classroom of students, over and over.
Ray
Ray
You hit the nail right on the head. For the last 3-4 years, I have made as much "take home" pay from classes and weekend builds than I have made from the 3 large commissions I have made for customers wanting that exact replica. It hurts when a guy charges 90/hr to wire a shop and I have never seen 40/hr to build a custom rifle. Profit... its a little blurry.
Dan
Edited 9/12/2009 8:07 am ET by danmart
Dan,
I am sorry to hear that you can't make some real money doing those fantastic custom rifles of yours. Someone is making money on rifle stocks. I visit Dunlap Woodcrafts every few months. The website is:http://www.dunlapwoodcrafts.com/They specialize in exquisite wood, especially gun blanks. Earlier this year, I was there and the owner said that they grade their curly maple into seven grades, and they had never had a top grade blank before, but they did that night. He showed it to me. GORGEOUS. The price for the blank was $1000!!!!!!A year ago, I was at Dunlap and they were just finishing packing up an order which they were shipping to Italy --- 1400 rifle blanks!!!!Maybe it is the woodsellers who are making the money on rifle??? :-)I have never looked into purchasing a custom rifle stock, but I would guess that $5000 would not be too much for a nice one. I have no idea of what they sell for.One thing is for sure, I'd rather have one of your custom rifles than a Maloof rocking chair. Using that as a guide, your rifles should be above $20,000.Good luck.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"One thing is for sure, I'd rather have one of your custom rifles than a Maloof rocking chair. Using that as a guide, your rifles should be above $20,000."Mel, you can't have just one. You need the rocking chair on your porch and the rifle to keep you company like they do in the movies.This is a very interesting discussion.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I'll take the rocker, nothing against Dan .
Tom.
Tom,
Have you seen Dan's gunstocks?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Yes, they are works of art, he is a master of his craft. I have also seen and sat in a few Maloof chairs as well as. Apples to oranges.
Dan and Sam both transform utility into art, They are artists and I am a wannabe.
Tom.
Tom,
From one wannabee to another,
I agree.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Chris,
I was thinking about you while reading this thread. I don't know anyone who wants it more than you do. I hope you find an approach that works. What Ray said, and what Dan said, however, cannot be dismissed. So what are the alternatives? :-)Maybe there are big bucks in high-end kitchens? I wonder what Old Dusty has to say?Have you thought about switching from woodworking to tool making? Mike Wentzloff and Larry Williams can't keep up with demand. Possibly there are big bucks in making presentation boxes for expensive tools. Ask Derek. There could be big bucks in writing woodworking humor. Ask Ray.Possibly there are big bucks in buying a bouffant shirt from a bygone era, and writing in the area of old time woodworking. Ask Adam. I don't think there are big bucks in carving. Lee Grindinger left a successful carving career to get into international money trading.My belief that the biggest money to be made in woodworking is in the making and selling of "pen turning kits". You can buy a few large planks of nice wood, and turn them into tens of thousands of pen blanks. The metal pen parts kits come from the orient and can be bought in mass quantities for peanuts. One could open a large number of small kiosks in shopping centers and sell this pen turning kits. The profit potential is ENORMOUS. :-)Also I am thinking of doing a take-off on the "personal trainer" profession, and starting a "personal woodworker" company, which for $150/hr, will send a top-notch woodworker to a person's home shop to give private woodworking help and advice. I hope some of these ideas are helpful or entertaining to you.Mel Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
This is funny Mel but it comes from my personal experiences building longrifles and windsors: more people are looking for a chair to sit down on than rifles to admire and fire. That's not to poke fun at anyone. Back in the days of the "Golden Age of Longrifles" people NEEDED a good rifle to live. I/we look back at the surviving rifles with admiration and romance and forget that they were the most important tool for a man putting food on the table on the frontier. Additionally, it's worth stating: the rifles I build are usually styled after the rifles built for some "Fat Rat" who never used his-- he just had his fancy rifle above the mantle for his friends to envy. Sound like some folks you know?
Its a crazy business but its what it is. Back to work.
later
I'm not an expert on crossing the hobby to pro line... but there are many things to consider in the move.
After reading the news of Maloof's passing and Krenov's recent passing I find a common thread in some successful artists: the wife's job kept the lights on for a good period of time and she didn't object to the lack of funds. Its a bit of an over simplification but I think it is important to point out.
In my case, I have not seen or felt the demand for my work was strong enough to "quit the day time job" and hang the full time sign. Part-time is better than no time or going back to making pieces for my mother-in-law.
later
Dan,
your posts always display wisdom(knowledge) based on experience and person insight. I believe this topic of how to make money in woodworking is the most elusive topic ever covered on Knots. I find your work on rifle stocks to be inspirational.
Mel
ps I love your chairs tooMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
dan,
Supply and demand. Wonder if sparky is still asking 90/hr now that building has slowed way down? On the other hand, we don't have to worry about business getting slow, as it is business as usual...
Don't forget that old chestnut about the benefits of being a craftsman/having such a rare talent/being your own boss, which can't be quantified by crass measures such as $$
Cheers,
Ray
Greetings Ray ,
Some of my pals used to say how cool it was that I was self employed , yup I could take off and go fishing er whatever whenever I want.
I told them when you are self employed you only have to work a half a day,,,,,, yeah , any 12 hours you choose .
some of the best solutions come to me at like 3 a.m.
regards dusty, from qswo
Ray,
I'm self employed and do enjoy the benefits, but I must say my boss is a real arse.
Hope things are well with you...
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
dg,
I'm sure you've seen the story of the labor organizer who came into the cabinet shop and asked for the boss. After quizzing him on the salaried and hourly wage employees' hours and benefits, the union guy says, "Now, is there anyone else who works here that you haven't told me about?"
"Well, there's one other guy. He's here for 4 or 5 hours after everyone else leaves, he cleans up, and puts things away. Then he's running errands early in the am before anybody else arrives. He unloads the lumber trucks, shovels shavings, cleans the restroom, and empties the dust collector. Stays late two or three nites a month with the paperwork. I pay him with a bottle of bourbon and a case of beer once in a while." "That's the guy I've been looking for! Where is he now?"
"You're looking at him."
Ray
Ray.
"Supply and demand."Can't demand be created?There was no demand for a Xerox machine before it was invented.
There was no demand for the Lexus before it was created.Local "Pizza Huts" need to sell pizzas. The national Pizza Hut organization's job is to do the advertising necessary to create the demand so that people want Pizza Hut pizzas more than Dominos pizzas.Holtey and Marcou and Tom Lie-Nielsen and Rob Lee make expensive planes. Folks like Charlesworth and Derek Cohen and others do their best to create a demand for these boutique planes.I would like to see FWW as an organization get into the creation of "demand" for high end furniture. THey could do it just like the current Dance Competitions on TV has created a CRAZE for dance lessons, dance shows, etc. Now, FWW helps create a market for tools for woodworkers to buy. Why don't they sponsor national and regional competitions and shows? This would create more woodworkers and thus a bigger demand for FWW and Taunton products. Why don't Woodworking schools such as Boston's North Bennett Street School, and the Marc Adams school, etc etc etc teach courses in "creating and fostering and nurturing people to commission furniture". Why don't we focus on the "creation of demand"? I didn't say it was easy. Besides it isn't my idea. I got it from David Savage who helped create a network of fine furniture makers in Great Britain and Ireland who help one another!!!! Interesting idea. Fine woodworkers who consider themselves not as competitors for a few customers, but as a group who create increasing demand.I think here in the US, woodworkers think of themselves more as "lone wolves" than as collaborators in creating demand.Have fun.
Mel (always the agent provocateur)Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,Nice imagination, but "So You Think You Can Woodwork", or "America's Best Woodworking Crew" or "Woodworking With The Stars" probably is missing that spark with the audience.I do think those shows are missing the opportunity to have Norm Abram or Roy Underhill as contestants. Yeah, I'd watch it if they were on, probably for the inevitable jokes of "Norm is dancing a little wooden this evening...."Xerox's invention solved a corporate work efficiency issue, but a cherry/walnut chest on chest does not. Pizza Hut solves a hunger need for people disinterested in cooking for themselves. Creating demand for quality wood objects is a tough go. Money spends when it wants to, especially for well crafted items, because people can appreciate craft for free. Creating a woodworking cooperative has to benefit its members - too little work and too many woodworkers, I'd think the competition for work actually increases.To be a generator of woodworking interest, FWW would have to spend heavily on programs and promotion. Who's treasury pays for that?Cheers,Seth
Seth,
"To be a generator of woodworking interest, FWW would have to spend heavily on programs and promotion. Who's treasury pays for that?"Suppose FWW got photographs from the woodworkers who are doing great stuff and want a bigger audience, and put together a quarterly magazine for the Interior Decorators who do high end work. THis would give the woodworkers a bigger audience to sell to, and it would give the decorators furniture that would enable them to do some great designs.If each woodworker tried to do this, it would be prohibitive, but if FWW (or Taunton) put together a special "Design Book for Interior Decorators", which showed what woodworkers had to sell, it would open up a new clientele for Taunton. Woodworkers, of course would have to pay for the advertising, and the decorators would have to buy the magazine. INCREASED PROFITS FOR TAUNTON.There is something else that Taunton could do. Put together a book of information on "Approaches to Financial Success in Woodworking". If FWW put together a single issue on this area, it would be the biggest selling issue that Taunton ever produced. But there is more that they could do. FWW could make a training program in that area and take it on the road. They could present it at the Woodworking shows that criss cross the country, -- FOR A FEE, of course. They could approach Lie Nielsen, who has dropped out of the woodworking shows, and send the course on the road with the Lie Nielsen travelling "tool selling show". I went to one this year in Gaithersburg, MD, and a lot of woodworkers showed up and bought tools. I am sure that if there was a training program being offered at that sale, that most of the woodworkers who showed up would pay to take it.Notice that I have only been bringing up ideas on how Taunton could make money by helping woodworkers in the area of finding clients, and it teaching them about how to be successful businessmen. I think it would be worth Taunton's time to look into such an idea. There is a simple way to do the Training Course. Taunton could sponsor David Savage to six three day training programs across the US. David could put the training program together. Taunton and David would both make money, and woodworkers would benefit.Hope that helps.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Sign me up.Good Idea about the magazine to interior decorators.
Hi, Mel,Good points, I understand where you're coming from. Allow me to further philosophize, rambling where I go.Given, Taunton's core competency is content distribution for home-centric topics: gardening, cooking, sewing, wood working and home building. Small business marketing, business planning, etc. are topics which are outside the current core competency. For Taunton to produce that material, it has to invest in the knowledge, then sell it. Obviously, they need to make a profit to make it worthwhile. So Taunton would need to spend some market research money to determine the demand for hobby-as-a-business information. And before any of that, does Taunton want to expand its core competency, in the first place? http://www.taunton.com/advertising/finewoodworking/media-kit/pdf/FW_ABC_PublishersStatement.pdfThe above link is just to provide numbers for a silly game with no real answers. If we presume that the magazine circulation numbers represents the whole of the FWW population, what percentage of the population would it take for Taunton to recognize a demand for a single issue of small business content? Let's presume 25%. (62,500) Say you charge $21.95 (Design Book Eight's list price) for that special issue. Taunton grosses $1.37M, minus all costs related to production, marketing, distribution, etc., ending up with $1M in net profit. Not a bad day's work.But that's a big IF, which is conditional upon that many people wanting the information and are willing to pay that price for it as one block. Charging a single issue price ($8.24) grosses only $515K, and a much more meager profit.Anyway, my example is completely fictitious, but intended as a way to generate conversation.Cheers,Seth
Seth,
"Anyway, my example is completely fictitious, but intended as a way to generate conversation."Much like mine. :-) :-) :-)Actually, you could change that slightly to " but intended as a way to generate potentially useful thinking".I don't think that FWW has any choice but to help foster the development of more and more "fine woodworkers". At Woodcraft, I rarely see anyone under the age of 50, except for contractors coming in for router bits and cutters for Fein Multimasters. The only hobbyists are in their fifties through eighties. It is the baby boomers who are now retiring and have money to spend on expensive woodworking tools. The next generations didn't ever get "shop" in high school. It has been cut out almost completely. Now, kids don't know what a hand plane is. They know nothing and care little about woodworking tools or even learning handyman skills. I believe that within thirty years, the hobby of woodworking will be DEADER THAN A DOORNAIL. The only need for woodworkers will be to care for collections in museums.If I am right, FWW ends in less than 20 years, and by then its average readership will be about 93.4 years of age. The favorite topics will be "tools that seniors can use", "techniques requiring little strength", etc. So if FWW is going to continue, it is going to have to help keep the hobby and business of fine woodworking alive.THere, will that generate conversation (or thought).
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I hate to disagree with you, Seth, but when I was a contractor, I was a subscriber to Taunton's Fine Homebuilding for many years.The very topics you mentioned found their way into the magazine on a regular basis.Which leads me to believe that Fine Homebuilding serves a different market than Fine Woodworking.One is for pros, the other for amateurs. Pros are not interested in perfection, amateurs are not interested in cost or profit.
Jammer,
"Pros are not interested in perfection, amateurs are not interested in cost or profit."You hit the nail on the head.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Morning Jammer ,
As a professional for three decades I must say that if I were not concerned about perfection I'd been gone many years ago like some of the others , so I respectfully disagree with your statement .
regards dusty
Hi, Dusty,Without putting words in Jammersix's mouth, I took it to mean that a contractor is not concerned with +/- .002" tolerances. 'Perfect' is on time, on budget, and within the tolerance of the building code, the expectations of the customer, and the building materials themselves.Cheers,Seth
That's exactly right, Seth.Pros who were interested in perfection quickly became amateurs.I don't believe you need to see the books of the success stories-- it turns out that most of the business principles that apply to contracting (or woodworking, or gunsmithing, or owning a charter boat, or running a guide service, or a lawn cutting business, or painting portraits, or manufacturing washing machines, or selling power and hand tools to amateur woodworkers) are the same.It isn't necessary to be an accountant, but it is necessary to be able to talk to accountants, and read their reports, understanding the information they convey and the implications of that information. P&Ls and Balance Sheets are not self explanatory, nor in the least bit user friendly. The only caution is that once you understand formal accounting, and can see the state of your business at a glance, as well as identify changes to that state and work backwards to the cause, you will cringe when someone makes a blanket statement about a "25% profit margin", for at least three reasons.While accounting is the easiest, clearest example to demonstrate the application of common business principles, there are many others.You aren't the first amateur woodworker who has considered going pro.You won't be the first to either fail or succeed, or the first to make a good living.I suggest you take the "woodworker" out of it, and study common business administration.I started with accounting, but that certainly isn't necessary. Standard business practices will go a long, long way towards feeding your family. They will also steer you away from enterprises that are going to fail before they get out of the gate. And once you start studying them, you will realize how much is out there to absorb.The suggestion to start at a local community college is the best suggestion I've seen in this thread.But I'll warn you, when I started at the local community college, just "out of curiosity", I ended up with a degree, at the tender age of 48. I got to wear a flat hat with a danglie on it, and everything.
If anyone who wanted to become a professional furniture maker studied business adminstration before becoming a furniture maker, there wouldn't be any professional furniture makers.F.
Good on ya, for getting a degree! Funny what hurdles one will endure in pursuit of a danglie and an acetate robe. I got mine back in '91, and after a couple stints in material logistics, I moved to IT. I could probably not be further afield from my advertising degree at this point. Watcha gonna do?Thanks for the good words. I'll call a buddy of mine, he owns a couple bakery businesses. Picking his brain over an apple cheese tart doesn't seem like a bad idea.Cheers,Seth
Jammer,I'd just like to add a few words to the very sound ones you posted. You're quite right that running a WWing business is like most small businesses. One must learn to wear several different hats - marketing, sales, accounting, human resources, production manager, quality control, etc. Oh yeah, there's also the woodworking hat. But I've followed lots of businesses over the past 40 years, and I can say that I've never seen a woodworking business that went under because of the woodworking. No, the killer is the other stuff, whatever the weakest link in the above-mentioned chain happens to be. So one can either learn to wear the different hats or hire an outsider who will. There's no way you can stay in business if you don't have all the bases reasonably covered. Yet I continue to be amazed that we (I mean the small professional shops) are so involved and spend so much energy on solving woodworking issues. Bravo for going out to study. I decided to take courses about 20 years ago, and while I can't say that I enjoyed it I don't think I could have made it in business without the added dimension.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
"But I've followed lots of businesses over the past 40 years, and I can say that I've never seen a woodworking business that went under because of the woodworking."In construction, it always surprised me-- "it wasn't the WORK, we did the WORK okay, but it was the BUSINESS!"They'd say that like it was a point for some kind of pride.Even if the work is the important part, does that mean you got the hard part right, and blew the easy part?Like I said, I've never understood why it was more honorable to fail for A than for B.
"Like I said, I've never understood why it was more honorable to fail for A than for B""
And you never will, if you think it is honourable to fail.Philip Marcou
Hi, Jammersix,I have a bunch of Fine Homebuilding mags from the early 2000's, and I love them because they are written (and styled) for pros in the trades. You're right to point out that the information is certainly more technical, more in depth, and of a higher caliber than what's found in a hobby mag. Likely, the FHB audience demands justification of how the technique will impact quoting, costs, time, etc., otherwise, the magazine is just pictures of dudes at work, swinging hammers.Perhaps contractors are not too concerned about running the numbers in public because the jobs have been done millions of times and there's just no mystery anymore: a roof job on a 2000 sq ft ranch usually takes X hours with X number of crew using X bundles of shingles. I'm a member of 2 drum making forums. People delight in posting pictures of completed work, and have no problems showing techniques, etc. On the subject of costs and profit margin, members tend to become aggressively defensive about sharing that info, pricing is done via private messaging, and making the price public is considered a forum no-no. Custom drum making is boutique and fragmented, and builders that have established a brand name are not interested in making competition easier.I find that to be silly, because making a drum can be broken down into a formula - X number of board feet, X hours to make the blank, X hours to turn the shell, X hours to finish it. The magical part is assigning money value.(Sorry for taking so long to get to this point, but I thought the journey was necessary.)I would also like to know certain business aspects of woodworking, but I think it's much like custom drum building, where there is still intentional mystery with the numbers. Getting a Hank Gilpen or Ian Kirby or Chris Becksvoort to open the books is probably a non-starter. Even magazine contributors currently with a foot in the custom furniture business might not be forthcoming with information. So while it would be an interesting topic in FWW, I don't see the financial aspect slipped into articles, because the mystery is good for preserving business. Cheers,Seth
Of course, Taunton has been there, done that. The publishing Home Furniture that displayed nicely designed craftsman built furniture. It folded.
The Fine Woodworking Design Book _____ for a number of years, showing the best of both innovative and reproduction furniture.
Steve,
You always seem to come in with useful information. Thank you. I did not know about "Home Furniture", which displayed nicely defined craftsman built furniture.However, I do not think that the goal of "Home Furniture" was to actually sell furniture made by small shops to Interior Decorators. I believe what we need is a way to help small furniture makers get their wares known to more potential customers -- (Rich People with good taste. I see interior decorators as "go betweens" with real pull.I suggest that small shops furniture for sale to such folks, and to advertise in this Taunton periodical. This could be a NEW and exciting way of getting fine woodworkers to be able to sell their works nationally or internationally. Right now, they are rarely known outside their home areas.In Washington, DC, just a block from NASA Headquarters, where I spent most of my career, there is a place called the Washington Design Center. THeir website is:
http://dcdesigncenter.com/The Design Center is a big building filled with people who only sell to Interior Decorators. THis is the type of function that I would like to see furniture makers be able to get into. How about a room in this building which shows and sells furniture made by fine furniture makers. Obviously, the pieces on display are not for sale. Makers would only make specific pieces on commission. Specific design changes could be made for each order. Who do you think would be a good candidate to put such a display together for fine woodworkers to display works at the Washington Design Center? Why not Taunton? It would be a new business for them. They have the knowledge and the contacts.Anyway, it is not easy to find ways for fine furniture makers to get their wares out to a much wider set of potential customers. I'd like to hear others. Thank you for the information about the magazine that went bust. I like the FWW Design Books, but they do not go far enough, and their goal is not to sell the works that they contain photos of.Thank you for the info you provided.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Yes, there are similar centers "for the trade" in other big cities. But, basically what using those facilities entails is paying for high rent quarters, having woodworkers produce speculative "demonstration" products, and finding ways to staff such facilities, and promote them. I'm dubious that it could be made to pay.
It still comes down to the basics of establishing oneself. Getting out and meeting people, getting known, and always looking for opportunities to sell oneself. And, unfortunately, the qualities of personality that make for fine craftsmen are not often combined with the aggressive outgoingness needed for salesmen. And, in woodworking as in most other sales organizations I wouldn't be surprised to find that 80% of the sales are produced by 20% of the salesmen.
Steve,
I am sure you are correct. I was looking for a better solution to a difficult problem. There probably aren't any such solutions.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
All this reminds me of a talk I had with a successful local pro. He was asked about the challenges of making a living as a woodworker. At the point of the discussion he was a fairly in demand custom maker, and had about a year of backlog.
His take was:
There are lots of people that want good furniture, and there are lots of people that can afford good furniture. But very few people know what good furniture is. These people have no problem dropping $12,000 on a dining table and chairs that may only actually be worth $3000 because they trust the brand. The real challenge is convincing them to spend $12,000 on a table worth $12,000.
The next challenge is to convince them to wait a year for it...
Buster,
I enjoyed your response to me, and your message to all. Good thoughts. Nothing I would disagree with. But there is one thing I would have said to your woodworker who has a long backlog. There are a lot of high quality woodworkers who could be contacted to help this guy reduce his backlog from a year to six months. If this happened, word would spread to their friends who could afford nice stuff. By bringing in some more fine woodworkers, more demand could be created. However, when I told folks earlier that David Savage got a bunch of top notch furniture designers/makers in Great Britain and Ireland to help one another out, the response here was negative. The responses didn't like "cooperatives". They like it as it was in the WILD WEST, with all woodworkers being loners and keeping their distance from other woodworkers. I am no socialist. I am a realist. If there is work for me, and more than I can handle, I'd bring in someone else. I believe this was a useful thread that covered material that is VERY IMPORTANT, but not often discussed. Glad you hopped in. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,These topics are pretty interesting, though I don't know how useful they are for pros... since most of us are amateurs.Your idea of spreading the work is interesting, but in some cases impractical. This guy has enough of a name locally, that people want HIS stuff. Interestingly enough, he enjoys teaching as a social aspect of his craft. That's where I met him. He teaches a couple of evenings each week.Your idea of a pro-woodworking co-op is pretty interesting. I'm thinking it would work well at that semi-pro level. Guys who work for the enjoyment, but don't want to be to tied down 9-5. In that scenario the pooling of resources makes sense.
Mel, if I worked with someone, or for someone, or under someone, over someone, or in the same shop as someone, eventually, either I'd be required to spread my glue from left to right, or they'd fail to spread their glue to my standards.
Jammer,Your objection is reasonable, but it doesn't negate the viability of Mel's idea for many applications. Here's some from my own personal experience:1. Faced with huge orders, I've outsourced all of the following - cutting sheet goods to size, edgebanding plywood parts, sanding parts, turning parts, spray finishing. In all these cases it was relatively easy to keep our QC control on the subcontractors, while spreading work around.2. My shop doesn't do entry doors. But we know someone reliable who does, and we've taken jobs that include entry doors just because the client wants us to deal with everything, and we know we have it covered.Why not expand the thinking beyond what my shop can handle?regards,
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
Well......because your shop can't handle it. :)
From a business standpoint that is very limited thinking. In my (former) industry we subcontracted many specialties as it allowed us to take the entire mechanical contract and make a reasonable mark-up on the subs without the investment of additional capital (human and otherwise) for things we may not do often enough. Going it alone is often foolish and financially backward. Remember, it’s not about you at all or your preferences, it is about the customer. There are two kinds of people, those that sign the front of the check and those that sign the back, and guess what? The ONLY one who matter is the one signing the front.<!----><!----><!---->
Well said , thank you .
regards dusty
Morning Jammersix ,
We are in business to make money , if we can keep control of the job and make money on other people without putting more burden on our own shops we win . The most important aspect of this to me is WHO you are involved with not WHAT you are doing so much .
On some jobs they want us to do the entire trim package some may want man doors as well . We have to take the whole job sometimes whether we like it or not .
Correct me if I am wrong but I think you were a union Carpenter that was in management or supervisory position not in business for your self , there is a huge difference in attitude . When you get a regular paycheck each period whether you made anyone money or not it is much more sane then being self employed and never really knowing what your income will be for sure .
We tend to think out of the box (no pun intended) as far as ways to earn a living , without limiting ourselves .
regards dusty , boxmaker
Well, since you asked directly for a correction, I will do so.I was a union apprentice, journeyman and foreman.I then started a residential remodel business, went bankrupt, started another one, and ran it for ten years before retiring.
David ,
I think you touched on a key point in this discussion. And that is satisfying the customer's needs even if you need to hire some work out.
I received a very valuable lesson in this years ago, when I was working as a carpenter. One job took me into a small, local printing company. I happened to be in the owner's office one day, working on the ceiling, when a customer from the American Kennel Club walked in to discuss a recent order.
The printing company had just printed up some certificates for a dog show that was to take place a few days hence. The AKC client asked the print shop owner if he could have the dogs' names individually printed on the certificates, using calligraphy. The owner said, "Sure, I can have that done. Give me a list of the names you need on the certificates and the job will be in your hands on Tuesday."
After the client left the office, I asked the print shop owner if he had anyone on staff who could do the calligraphy work. He said, "No. But I'm sure I can find someone who will be able to do the work within a day or two. The guy who just left my office didn't want to hear that he would have to find someone himself to do that lettering. He wanted a turnkey operation. I won't make much money on the job, but I've served a client who will likely come back to me for other work, again and again."
There is, I think, a lot to that. Sometimes, people just want the job done without incurring more hassles or more time expended on their part. If you're able to take charge of that situation and solve their problems, there are opportunities to do business...
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Yes, I agree, but it's also important to be up front about sub-contracting, and not give the client false impressions. If we take a job that involves subs, we tell the clients exactly what's going on - for instance, that a sub will be making his entry doors, but that the client will deal only with us, and any issues he has will be through us. I've occasionally gone out on a limb and said "yes" to land a job even when I didn't have any idea of how I was going to solve it. But that's a special kind of hutzpa reserved for very rare and tempting situations. Ive been lucky so far that it hasn't turned around and bit me in the ####.regards,David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
Jammer,
"if I worked with someone, or for someone, or under someone, over someone, or in the same shop as someone, eventually, either I'd be required to spread my glue from left to right, or they'd fail to spread their glue to my standards."I believe you represent the core of Knots. I believe you represent woodwork as it has been for centuries. I remember Ray Pine talking about the first three places he worked when he was learning the trade. The head guy at each place insisted that everything be done his way at each place and all were different. I believe that is the way it was in the guilds, although I was not there at the time. If you scan the messages on Knots on any given day, you seem to notice that most of the messages are not about woodworking, but about woodworkers. The sociology and psychology of woodworking are ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING -- far more fascinating than woodwork itself. For a long time, I have believed that most preachers are not in the business for the religious aspect of things, but because they LOVE to be in front of a crowd! Woodworkers are just the opposite. They go into woodworking because they can't stand to have other people around -- those other people are so damned incompetent. While woodworkers tend to be very private people and quite introverted (except for Roc :-), they love to interact with other woodworkers via a computer, because that does not require actual face to face meetings. I once heard Woody Allen give a talk on how he writes jokes. He said a very successful method is to take any "standard" thing and turn it upside down or inside out. That is a fun aspect of Knots. You can take anybody's way of doing anything, and do pretty much the opposite and it works too, if you have the skill. To me, the REAL SECRET of woodworking is that it doesn't matter how you do anything or which tools you use, because with the proper skills, you can make them give you the result you want. As they say at Outback Steakhouse, "No Rule. Just Right."I believe it is because there is no "right" way of doing anything in woodwork, that woodworkers latch onto single ways of doing them as if they were Gospel. I loved your brief but very insightful message. I wish I could think in such concise ways. My way may be different, but both of us enjoy our ways, and that is what woodworking is all about. Methods and tools are essentially irrelevant. What counts is the output and the enjoyment.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
If you scan the messages on Knots on any given day, you seem to notice that most of the messages are not about woodworking, but about woodworkers. The sociology and psychology of woodworking are ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING -- far more fascinating than woodwork itself.
Very true. In all my hobbies I see more ego's in woodworking than in anything else. Woodworking clearly isn't a team sport. It follows that I 100% agree with you comment that there is no 'right' way to do anything in woodworking.
Though I would disagree that woodworkers are introverted. Forums allow us to connect with people we'd otherwise have no contact with. It breaks down the physical, and mental barriers: You're across the continent, and roughly twice my age. Two barriers that are eliminated by the Internet. It also allows me to be involved when I otherwise can not (like at lunch sitting at my office desk).
I'm not really involved in the local group. Great group of guys, but it's an old mans group. However I do have a group of guys that I enjoy getting together with once a month for a 'Board Meeting' over some beer and wings.
When it comes to knots, there are many more hobbyists than pros. Hobbyists just have more time to stress about what's right and what's wrong. We often hold onto ideas as gospel, when at best they're rules of thumb. We perpetuate these myths, and even go to great lengths to 'prove' them.
We've really divided ourselves into two groups: 'Tools' and 'Skills'. We perceive the tools to be the group that is constantly planning the next tool purchase, stress about the sharpness of the blade, and flatness of 0.0000001 of an inch. They believe that a new saw will help them cut dovetails perfectly without practice.
We perceive the 'skills' to be the one that can cut a dovetail with a butter knife and dental floss, that they stress design over construction process, and whose ownership of tools is merely a means to an end.
While I obviously respect the 'skills' more, I've got some deep roots planted in with the 'tools'. It's a maturity thing I think (when I was new I had no tools...). In the end I've really run off on a tangent here...
Buster,
Two comments on your response to me.
1) that might have been the best message ever posted on Knots.
2) I am blown over by the fact that I am twice your ago. You act far wiser and more knowledgeably than I would expect from young guy. You and I are not going to find a lot to argue about. But then again, I don't argue much. It never does any good. I'd rather just find interesting people I can learn from and have fun with, and spend time with them. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I am blown over by the fact that I am twice your ago.
I'm only guessing of course. A 30 year career at NASA, plus a degree in front of it would put you in the later 50's. That you've retired and also have a grandson kind of reinforces that thought. You'd actually have to be 62 to be twice my age. Though I think McDonalds starts serving the senior coffee at age 50...
You and I are not going to find a lot to argue about.
We've had our moments... But just because we disagree on one thing doesn't mean we have to disagree on the second.
I disagree.
Buster,
I am 66. You guessed pretty close.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I can see cutting a dovetail with dental floss, but you'd have to be patient.I can't figure out what the butterknife is for, though, unless you're going to sharpen it and use it for a layout tool, possibly with a layout cut into the handle.
Seth,On the Discovery Channel, there is a show called Canada's Worst Handyman. It's quite sad the lack of ability and common sense these people have. And on HGTV, I believe there was a show called Handyman Superstar Challenge or something like that.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,I used to watch The Red Green Show. Funny stuff, the Handyman's Corner sounds a lot like Canada's Worst Handyman.What did Red Green use to say? If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.Cheers,SethEdited 8/29/2009 12:03 pm ET by Hamelech
Edited 8/29/2009 8:29 pm ET by Hamelech
Can't demand be created?
There was no demand for a Xerox machine before it was invented.There was no demand for the Lexus before it was created.
Local "Pizza Huts" need to sell pizzas. The national Pizza Hut organization's job is to do the advertising necessary to create the demand so that people want Pizza Hut pizzas more than Dominos pizzas.
Interesting analogies but I think the demand is already there. People like pizza, and people like luxury cars. I wouldn't say that the either company is creating a demand for the product, they're creating a brand that is easily identifiable with the product.
THey could do it just like the current Dance Competitions on TV has created a CRAZE for dance lessons, dance shows, etc.
I think you've touched on something here. Current design shows don't focus on quality furniture, or even very lasting design. They've fallen into a quick fix, DIY, do it cheap, throw it away and start over in two years. I think this is a huge shift from your generation to my generation.
Why don't we focus on the "creation of demand"?
I think there already is a demand for furniture. The issue is shifting that demand to a higher quality, without necessarily shifting it to a known brand.
Ray,
When I posted my response, you were posting yours. I had read the responses that had already been posted but yours wasn't there yet. There have been some "artists" such as Maloof who made lots of copies of his rocking chairs, and a few other designs. Hal Taylor, in Fredricksburg makes a Maloof-style chair a week and sells so many of them that he just raised his price from $7,000 to $10,000, and business has not fallen off. Of course, Maloof was getting more than $20,000 apiece for them, so in a way, Hal is getting jipped. Don't you just feel sorry for him. Let's see, 52 weeks a year; a chair a week, and $10,000 per chair. Let me multiply that out. I believe if I could sell Maloof chairs for that much, I wouldn't take a week off for the two years that I worked. After that, It would be "retirement". Two years would be good enough. Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Ray:
Do you think folks might pay more for pictures of us making their furniture over and over? Hmm....not sure how that would work!
My aproach is to be unique and not repeat a job. It works for me even in this fun economy!
Hows that Indian been behaving this summer?
Madison
Madison,
you should have jumped in earlier and told the gang how to make money in woodwork.
Have fun,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel:
The secret is to never listen to what others say can't be done! Then build a plan and work it. Of course being a notch above what others provide doesn't hurt either.
I think the biggest mistake any artist or craftsperson makes is believing that if you make it they will come. We produce a product that nobody "needs" but many people "want" so we must as business people market to that desire and for woodworkers and artists that means being visible to and comfortable working with folks who usually have much more wealth than we do (not always easy to do). You must be above reproach, prompt, capable and tough. You must understand that your clients will not shop for a maker by purusing the yellow pages or reading the local news paper. They will however respond to advertising in publications that postition themselves with your potential clients. The New Yorker is a good example of that sort of publication.
Mostly your marketing will come, if you are smart, from your existing clients. I tell my clients I am paid in two ways and we always use both. First they will pay the agreed upon price for the work specified, then once they are overjoyed (I'm not kidding here) they must tell their friends where the piece came from. I go on to explain that I am a furniture maker and if they want me to be able to remain at the top of my game they must take on the role as marketing department. Going back to my comments on being above reproach, prompt, capable and tough, if you carry those traits into each relationship you will find your clients are only too happy to refer you. I have even helped some clients stage parties around the arrival of their new piece of furniture! Talk about a captive audience!
So love what you do, do it very well and don't listen to the folks who would have you believe "it can't be done". They are the same folks who found Galileo guilty of heresy when he discovered the world was not flat!
Enjoy!
Madison
Maddy,
I like your marketing approach. For years, I've been telling customers something that a mechanic said to me when I picked up my car after a repair: "If anything goes wrong, be sure and tell me. If everything is all right, be sure and tell somebody else."
Ray
Ray:
Indeed! Besides, I hate marketing, I much prefer the making, and who better to sell your work than happy clients? Well, I've about run out of coffee so I'd better get to work here. Make it a great day!
Madison
Massy,
am at the beach. Weather is stormy so am in the cottage. Just read your reply which may be the most informative in this thread. This topic is either one that you figure out, or you try another field . This is one of the longest threads in a while. Sorry about your bike accident. Glad you are fine. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel:
At the beach? Sounds nice! Even if it is raining. If I recall you live in Virginia so would that be the Atlantic ocean beach? Long time ago I got to ride on the USS Ranger once when it was coming into the Chesapeake Bay for reprovisioning (I knew the captain). That's one big boat! Imagine me the only girl on a boat with 5000 guys that had been out to sea for 3 months! It was a really fun day and I don't think I will ever be flirted with by so many cute guys again if I live to be 100.
The bike accident was all in a day's work thank goodness. You see there are only two kinds of bike riders those that have crashed and those that are waiting to crash. I've been a member of the former group for many years so while you don't look forward to it you can at least say experience does help in that you learn what to and what not to do during a crash. Sort of like snow skiing, you learn how to fall.
Thanks for the thoughts on the business discussion. I have found over the years that most artists and crafts people are really lousy business people and as such we have developed this strange attitude that nobody can be successful when nothing could be further from the truth. I mean jeez nobody "needs" a Jaguar automobile but somehow the folks that make them have successfully done so for quite a while in a world full of Chevy's, Fords and Dodges. Nobody "needs" $1,000 flyfishing poles but I know two guys down the way who can't make them fast enough to meet the demand and they make a very nice living. I've been at it now for 22 years and have turned a profit every year and there is no looking back. I've got a nice little pile of savings and some paid-for property, a business that hasn't really felt the recession and I don't thinkit gets much better.
The key to business success is to understand how business operates and then do it. It doesn't matter what you are in the business of, furniture, boats, fishing poles or anything else.
Enjoy the beach!
Madison
Marry,
am at Bethany Beach, Delaware, near Ocean Beach, MD. With wife, daughter, son in law, and grandson, Freddy. Great time despite weather.Great story. I can just picture all of the drooling guys a d you. Once, I stood outside agirls' dorm (about 1960) and yelled :"First girl down here gets me.". No e came. Aybe I didn't yell loud enough :-)you are wise I woodworking business area. Whtvdon't you, Dusty, Ray and Sarge put together a one week course, and charge $1000 per person. Limit number of students to 100. :-)have fun,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel:
Trust me they heard you but looked down and didn't see any saw dust or plane shavings and thought oh, boy I sure wish he had some sawdust in his hair, so they went back to their studies so they could hang out with the future NASA guys!
Madison
Hi Maddy,
While I've had a few customers want to take pictures of me working on/standing beside the furniture they had ordered, unfortunately, none offered to pay me for that. I figured it was lucky I didn't get charged for damage to the camera! I bet that you, however, are photogenic enough that your experience might vary quite a bit from mine. Maybe you ought to give it a try, perhaps a collaboration with Victoria's Secret?
No, my point was that the nearest a woodworker can come to doing something once, and getting paid for the work several times, is by teaching a class. That's why the best and brightest are doing that, and the rest of us dummies are polishing apples, or chairs, tabletops, one...at...a...time.
The chief is thumping right along. That new float in the carb is an improvement. Been a couple weeks since I had it out tho.
Ray
Ray:
Been a little chilly up here for much that Victoria's Secret might have to offer, but I'll bet you're right. We'd create a whole lot of noise if pictures got out with a few gals wearing those little things while wrestling a piece of furniture around! Personally I've always wondered what would happen if male underthings took on the same minimalist approach. I know a lot of us girls would probably take up with the mountain lions for fear that them hairy city critters might be more dangerous! Just kidding guys, this girl has always found the likes of Sean Connery to be the cats meow!
Good to hear that the Chief is running well, I took a spill back in June while visitng some friends down in Golden. We rode up Lookout Mountain and on the way down I dodged a car full of tourists and got a front wheel full of gravel and did my very best imitation of a mountain goat. Fortunately, nothing a bunch of stitches couldn't fix and nothing broke. The bicycle on the other hand took a couple pretty good hits and so I've retired her and replaced her with a nice new Eddy Merckx. Hmm, are scars sexy? I've got a couple really nice ones on my right thigh, elbow and rump now thanks to the granite landing strip that slowed my descent!
Keep the shiny side up!
Madison
"Personally I've always wondered what would happen if male underthings took on the same minimalist approach."Remaining family friendly, the mental exercise to the above theory should be the visual comparison of oranges stored in a brown paper bag, a translucent plastic sack, and a mesh net. Tiny Clementine oranges can't look more attractive when gathered tightly by a clingy net.Navel oranges transmit color and texture information through the transparency of the plastic sack.In a paper bag, it's anyone's guess if those are oranges, potatoes, pomegranates or onions. And that's the way it's supposed to be.Cheers,Seth
Oh Honey,
I'm supposed to be assembling a proposal but I just can't let this one fly by.
If you are reduced to fantasizing about Oranges in net bags you really need to get out a bit more dear!
In the real world there are many of us girls who appreciate a guy who presents himself well and can handle a fussy wicked sharp blade all while keeping his head in the real world.
As for the paper bag, keep it creased krisply and fitting properly and see what happens. You don't always need to be able to see the contents to appreciate them.
Now get out of your shop and go breath some fresh air!
Fussy, and wicked sharp, Madison
Hi, Maddy,My obsession with oranges is purely nutritional, assuredly. My humor is droll and dry. In the future, I'll be more obvious.Cheers,Seth
Hamelech and crew:
It really doesn't take much to get all of us thinking about the more colorful parts of life does it? I'm relieved to hear that you are thinking nutritionally and not nocturnally, although I think you're fibbing a bit, but this girl will never tell!
Have a great weekend with the oranges sweetie.
Madison
Ham,
Heard a fellow once describe a lady he'd met. He said watching her walk away was like watching a gunnysack full of cats. Not clementines exactly...
Ray
uhm...<look of baffled consternation, as Jammer tries to decide if he was complimenting her or not.>
Ray, I always heard that expression as "A burlap bag full of bobcats..."ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Zolt,
Ah, alliteration, plus an unforgettable image.Rrrowwl!
Ray
Yeah, that can't be good at all! Is it worse to have "junk in your trunk" or "cats in your pants"? Both sound equally bad.That almost sounds like a Blue Collar comedy sketch - "We're here at the Duchess County Fair 'n Air Conditioner Swap Meet, asking folk which is worse - junk in the trunk, or cats in the pants? Let's go to Larry for a report..."Cheers,Seth
Bladesburn,
Your question is difficult to answer.
"woodworking" is like "love". It means different things to different people. There are people who are making MASSIVE PROFITS in woodworking. I invite you to look at the website of Hal Taylor, who makes Maloof-style rockers here in Virginia. Business is SOOOOO GOOOD that he just raised his prices. His cheapest goes for $10,000, and takes him less than a week to make. He makes one style of rocker that sells for almost $25,000. He will give you lessons on how to make a rocker, but that costs the same as the rocker. He has built such a name and such a clientele that folks are flocking to him. I expect him to raise prices again. YOu can see Hal's website at:
http://www.rockingchairs.net/
So now to to David Savage's website at:
http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/
David's furniture goes from $10.000 to $30,000 per piece. He has more business than he can take care of.
I could go on and on an on. (People accuse me of this all the time and they are correct.) I can also show you a list of websites of woodworkers who have closed up shop in the past year. I can give you a list of well known woodworkers who have left woodworking and gone into writing about woodwork or teaching woodwork, because they have found it to be far more profitable. I was really sorry to see Glen Huey go from woodworking to writing, but such is life.
It is an obvious fact that some woodworkers have people flocking to them to give them hugh sums of money for a piece of their furniture, and other woodworkers who cant attract customers who are willing to pay.
THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WOODWORKING. People who want a "Hal Taylor Rocker" are not looking for a piece of furniture. They can get a piece of furniture at IKEA. People who will pay David Savage $30,000 for a chest are not looking for a piece of furniture. You can get a chest at Walmart for less than #100.
All of the woodworkers that I know who have failed in their woodworking businesses were trying to make a business out of making fine furniture. They focussed on doing great work, and they talk a lot about styles and joinery and finishes, etc. They did not understand that people don't pay big bucks for that stuff.
Holtey's planes sell for more than $10,000 apiece. Anyone who buys a Holtey thinking it will make them a better woodworker is insane. You buy a Holtey because you want a "Holtey". If you want a good plane, go to Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen.
David Ring hit the nail on the head in his response to you. He is not selling "Kitchens", but the experience of working with him to build a dream kitchen. There are some girls in High school who want to date the football star. There are some people who want to buy a "Hal Taylor Rocker". You could probably make rockers as well as Hal does in a few months, if you can't already. However, that buys you nothing. After you have achieved the capability to do it, you have to start selling "dreams". People who will pay $10,000 for a rocker want to believe they are patting themselves on the back. It is an EGO THING.
Hope I have been of some help to you.
Pay attention to David Ring.
Have fun.
I hope you make millions. I believe you have a better chance of success in making millions if you try to make it into the National Basketball league than in woodworking. Ask Glenn Huey.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel.... that was absolutely magnificent!!!!! your words are obviously words of experience, and nothing can replace that. well stated, and spot on.....
it's all about egos these days....
Butch,
"that was absolutely magnificent!!!!! your words are obviously words of experience, and nothing can replace that. well stated, and spot on.....
it's all about egos these days...."No one has ever said anything that nice to me. Thank you very very much. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
you're very welcomed......
He's right, Mel, you hit it right on the head. Can you give us some thoughts about how to create the magic with the customer?
Jimhttp://www.jimreedy.com
Jim,
I have looked at your website a number of times. I am in awe of your Chippendale, your chip carved stool, your piecrust table, and on and on. If I were younger, I'd apply to apprentice to you. And you are asking me for advice. It should be the other way around.I am a psychologist, and I have been interested in the interpersonal aspects of woodworking, especially the business aspects for a long time. I am glad you enjoyed my thoughts on how REAL money is made in woodworking. Of course, you could have replied "If you know so much, why aren't you out there making big bucks from rich patrons?" That would be a legitimate question. Well, I have been retired from a 34 year NASA career. I do woodwork for the sheer enjoyment of it. But while at NASA, one had to sell one's ideas well, since the cheapest project was $300 Million, and they ran up to the multiple billions of dollars per project. Having spent my time at NASA Headquarters, I saw smart people come to sell their ideas all the time. Of course, I had to sell the projects I was on. I learned the most important thing in this process: Stay centered on the client - the person you are selling to. That means learning everything about him - likes, dislikes, hot buttons, history, biases, etc etc etc. You have to feel natural getting into the mind of the customer. LISTEN. LEARN. LISTEN. LEARN. Don't talk too much at first. Ask questions. Get the customer talking and talking and talking. Such people love to talk. You need to love to listen.
.
Once you have a "model" of the customer (which gets better with time), you start testing ideas to see how they fly with him. You stay in his mind. You sell using images which relate to what you have learned about him. OBVIOUSLY, you never piss off a customer. You suck up to the customer without him knowing it. You are playing the music he writes. Did you see the movie "American Gigolo"? Richard "read" the woman" and then gave her what she wanted, not what he wanted. This is not to say that you don't influence the customer. Of course you do. It is just that after you are finished influencing him, he thinks it was his idea. Think -- smooth, polished, informed. But this process of getting into the head of the customer, only happens after you have found a suitable customer. That happens quickly, as you know. If the person says, "Can you make this for me cheaper than I can get it at IKEA, you run away. So a big part of the adventure is finding the big fishes before you try to hook them -- actually before you get them to hook themselves. Obviously you don't find big fish by walking around Walmart stores. You need to go to where the big fish swim, and get them to notice you. Getting into the "right" shows can be useful -- those shows which feature prominent makers and rich patrons. In Virginia, I would recommend the annual show at Waterford, for example. That place smells like money. That is where I met Ray Pine (joinerswork). There are such shows all over the country. You might make a nice piece and donate it to be raffled off or auctioned off at a charity shindig which is peopled by the rich and famous. JUST INSURE that your name and photo are well placed and that you get plenty of credit.To find rich folks who are in the mood to buy pieces of furniture that make them feel good about themselves, you have to be where they hang around. That is why bank robbers rob banks. That is where the money is. Another aspect of all of this, IMHO, is that THE CUSTOMER HAS TO WANT YOU more than you want him. He doesn't mind waiting six months for his Ferrari to be delivered. He needs to feel that YOU ARE SPECIAL. If you are too easily accessible or too cheap, he wont feel that wey. When David Savage briefed our Woodworking Guild, someone asked him how he prices his work. He says that it has nothing to do with the piece being delivered. He charges as much as he can get out of the customer. If the customer doesn't complain about the price, he didn't charge enough.Think about pin ball machines. When I was a kid, I never wanted to play a pin ball machine that was easy to beat. I wanted to play the hard ones. The customers who can pay the big bucks don't want you to be an easy mark, because easy marks are not worthy of them. I have rambled on too long.
I hope there is a small idea somewhere in there which is useful to you. I have been trying to gather information on this process for a long time because it interests me intellectually -- Because it is difficult, not because it is easy. If it was easy, everyone would do it.The two best "salesmen" at NASA (both astrophysicists) are Ed Weiler and Charles Elachi. I watched them intently every time I could. I was amazed at how well they "handled" those they were talking (selling) to. They knew their customer inside out, and the way they handled the customer was artistic, in my eyes. Have fun. I hope you make millions. If any of those millions are due to something I said, send me $10. :-) Hope I didn't bore you.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I once read in a magazine the pricing formula/expense model of a woodturner in Oregon who had a successful business. His model was:
25% labor
25% materials
25% overhead
25% profit.
While having no experience ever running a business, it seemed reasonable enough to have stuck with me.
That said, I do run an academic "business" based on grants and contracts. Pricing is much more similar to Mel's, recalling the line from Vaction:
Chevy Chase "How much is this going to cost?"
Mechanic "Dunno. How much you got?".
Which means sometimes underprice and sometimes overprice...
Very interesting discussion.
Cheers,
Chris C.
Chris,
I believe that the formula you listed:
25% labor
25% materials
25% overhead
25% profit
might be appropriate for someone who is making the same things over and over, for example, a trim carpenter.However, this thread has been more about woodworkers who very successful financially making one-of-a-kind furniture. This is more akin to art than to crafts. When one only sells five or six things a year, one doesn't price as a trim carpenter does. How did Calder price his mobiles?
How did Warhol price his paintings?
How did Rodin price his sculptures?
How did Michaelangelo figure how much to charge the Pope?We have already discussed how modern wood artists such as Hal Taylor and David Savage price their works. I know people who put in kitchens that run well over $100,000. These are "VERY" custom jobs, and are not priced as one would price a "normal" kitchen with standard cabinets. We have some folks here on Knots who operate in this arena of very high end, one of a kind pieces of furniture. I wonder if we'll hear from them. I was amazed at how open that David Savage was in answering the questions posed to him at our Guild meeting. I felt that he held nothing back -- absolutely nothing. Richard Jones told me that David Savage is "the real thing". He has not only been successful in the studio furniture business for decades, and at the same time, has turned out a steady stream of students who have become successful at it!!!!!!! THIS IS ASTOUNDING. Most of us can't figure out how to be successful in this business, and this guy not only knows, but he consistently teaches it to others.David has a website at:
http://www.finefurnituremaker.comI would highly recommend that anyone who wants to become financially successful in high end woodworking take a look at his website, and subscribe to his newsletter. Look at how he treats his students. He shows them how to set up websites, how to get exposure to potential customers, how to be successful with these customers, etc. He introduces them to process, and gives them a hand in setting up their businesses or in placing them with established businesses. I believe that most of his successful students move from his studio to another succcessful studio, and then go on their own much later.If I wanted to become a successful high end woodworker, there is no doubt as to my first step. I would sign up for the full course with David Savage. It is expensive, but does anyone else know others who have such a record of success for their students?By the way, David got a degree in fine arts at Oxford where he specialized in painting, and then was awarded a place at the Royal Academy to continue his study of painting. He still considers himself an artist. How is it that an talented painter became a financially successful fine furniture maker who continues to teach the skills necessary for becoming financially successful in the business of studio furniture?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Trim carpenters rarely make the same thing "over and over". Even in tracts, everything is different.The closest thing I can think of to "over and over" would be a stairwell or an elevator shaft in a commercial building, and even then, there's things that are different every few floors.And finally, Carpenters (note the capital) object to the terms "framer", "trim carpenter", "finish carpenter" or "Other Carpenter".Those are all phases of one trade, and a true Carpenter is capable of doing all of them.Specialization is for insects.
Edited 8/27/2009 8:25 pm by Jammersix
Nobody makes 25% profit for any period of time--ezcept practical monopolists such as Microsoft perhaps. In a competitive field such as woodworking it certainly can't be expected. Remember the wages you pay yourself aren't profits, unless they are more than you could make elsewhere in your next best alternative occupation.
...[sigh]
Mel,
Thanks for the kind words and thoughts. I retired earlier this year and decided to pursue fine woodworking as a semi-profession since it's what I love to do and would like to find a way to make a little money doing it. I've had about a dozen customers so far and they have all been very happy with my work, but I am looking for ways to expand my customer base so there isn't too long a wait between jobs. I live in a fairly well-to-do area, so I am not too worried about clients being able to afford to pay for quality work. I'm thinking of trying to get the local newspaper to do an article about me to see if that generates business beyond word of mouth and Custommade.com. Rob Millard's comments about selling his first piece (in another post) were very enlightening.
Jimhttp://www.jimreedy.com
Woodworking is a tough profession. There are just too many of us who love it. As a result, it is difficult to get people to pay enough to make a decent living.There are the few who develop a name for themselves and so can charge enough to make a very good living but they are the few.Woodworking is to me like being an artist. There are a few who make fabulous money while most barely scrape by. But if you love it, many are willing to barely scrape by and who is to say they are wrong.Certainly not me. I often times wish I had the courage to quit my job and try it out but my creditors seem to think I should continue working.Domer
Domer,
I understand exactly how you feel. I have decided that I want to give it a shot and see what happens. I'm not trying to make millions of dollars like Sam Maloof...I would be happy making a living doing what I love to do. My kids are grown and out on their own, so I'm not under the gun to make money right away. I put together a business plan which gives me a couple of years to develop it into something. It's great to be able to hear from my fellow Knotheads on the subject. I hope I'm not hijacking this thread.
Jimhttp://www.jimreedy.com
Domer,
You said " Woodworking is a tough profession. There are just too many of us who love it. As a result, it is difficult to get people to pay enough to make a decent living. There are the few who develop a name for themselves and so can charge enough to make a very good living but they are the few."Sometimes it is interesting and useful to turn things on their head and see what flies. There was a psychologist who did this with the concept of fear. It was thought that "We run because we are afraid." This guy thought just the opposite, "You are scared because you run." This opens a new way of thinking about getting customers who are WANT to pay for fine furniture. You surmised that there are not enough people who will pay for fine furniture because there are too many fine furniture makers. I believe just the opposite. The more successful fine furniture makers there are, the more people there are who are willing to pay for fine furniture.It is like a town that has one antique store. Not much traffic. Can't charge much. BUT if the town becomes an antique center, and has 50 antique stores, then prices can be raised. The people most responsible for folks not being willing to pay enough for fine furniture are the fine furniture makers who sell their stuff at low prices. The more a person pays for something, the more they think it is worth. If you charge too little, they don't think it is "special". Obviously it is VERY DIFFICULT to get started selling high priced fine furniture. I believe the best way, if it is possible, is for your "teacher" to help get you started, by helping you get your first commissions, and by teaching you not only "woodwork" but also "how to develop a successful woodworking business".IMHO, as long as a person refers to their work as "woodwork" or "furniture", there is not much of a chance they will worm their way into the world of high priced stuff. I think the seller/maker MUST really think and believe that they are artists. ALSO, the seller/maker MUST think of himself as an entrepreneur -- a moneymaker. I "love woodworking", but if I were to get into it as a means of making a living, I would not let that get in my way. That is not what potential customers care about. THEY CARE ABOUT THEMSELVES. They assume they will be getting "fine woodwork". They want MUCH MORE THAN THAT. They want items which will feed their egos, as a Lamborghini would, or as a Holtey plane would to a tool afficianado. Have fun, and I wish you well in making your first $50 Million. Go for it.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
There you go, I stand corrected!Best,John
John,
I APOLOGIZE.
I never thought of myself as "correcting you".
Rather I was proposing a different way of thinking about things.
I didn't say I was correct. I don't know. I am searching, just as you are.
I don't know enough to correct other people.
I am merely a hobbyist, who spent a career in NASA while doing furniture as a hobby, and now as a retiree. It is fun to talk about things that don't really affect me, and that I do not know much about. :-)
HAVE FUN.
Again, I apologize.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I used to go to a lot of craft fairs to sell the wooden toys i designed and made. I didn't sell enough to make a living but I did well enough for it to be a good second income.I started out going to any craft fair that would have me but then was able to be more selective and ended up only going to decent juried shows. The problem with the un-juried shows was that there were too many people with junk and the people going to those shows could not differentiate nor would pay for better quality goods.I finally quit doing the shows because my day job began to pay enough that it was not economically justified to continue. Now I make things for myself and family and I can spend the time and money to make the quality I want and not have to worry about getting it sold. Incidentally, the quality and scope of my work has increased dramatically, I think because I am not worried about selling it or meeting a specific deadline.I admire anyone who is willing to follow their passion and do what they love for a living. But I don't have any words of wisdom to offer on how to market their work.Good luck to all who make the leap.Domer
Domer
You said: "Now I make things for myself and family and I can spend the time and money to make the quality I want and not have to worry about getting it sold. Incidentally, the quality and scope of my work has increased dramatically, I think because I am not worried about selling it or meeting a specific deadline."You were describing yourself!
You were describing me!
We must be twins who were separated at birth.
There are many more of "us" here on Knots than there are successful high end "one of a kind" makers. I believe you can count those on two hands. But WE are LEGION! I have long believed that FWW is not really for "fine woodworkers" but for FWWWs "Fine Wood Working Wannabees" - those of us who strive for making EXCELLENT Furniture, for our families, and because it feels good. Have fun.
Mel Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Probably true. I do love making little pieces of wood out of large pieces of wood. I belong to the local woodworkers guild and I would say maybe 15-20% make their living at their craft.Most of the rest are like me, trying their best. Many do really quality work. I think, though, many of them should spend more time on design and less time on technique. I am embarrassed about the money I spend on books. I am afraid to count how many I have.Domer
Domer,
Just like you, I belong to a guild, and about the same percentage work for themselves. There are fewer in the business than last year, but it was easy to predict they would fail. They were more interested in selling what they wanted to build than in trying to figure out what the customers wanted, or in trying to create customers. I think of such people as "missionaries". I also think of them as destitute. Luckily they were able to find other work, outside of woodworking. I fully agree with you on "design". "Design" and "successful business practices" are the two most unappreciated areas in woodwork. Most woodworkers I know don't have the confidence to do their own designs. As far as books go, I believe they are the greatest bargain in the world. I can "steal" more great ideas than I can generate. No sense for me to figure out a new way to cut cabriole legs. Might just as well buy a book or a DVD. Everyone I know who is good at their hobby is the proud owner of LOTS OF BOOKS AND DVDS. It costs about $1000 to take a weeklong course in woodwork, and then one has to pay room, board and transportation, and take a week off of work to do that. The total cost can run over $5000. I can buy a lot of books for $5000. Yuk yuk yuk. To me, books are the most important of my tools. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The only class I have ever taken was one put on my our local woodworkers guild where we had Kelly Mehler in for a two day workshop. It was very interesting and informative and only cost $50 or so. I can't see me going to classes where I have to travel any time soon. I have been buying more DVD's lately as I think it is easier to learn technique by watching people work rather than reading about it. Still I buy technique books but just not as many. I buy more books anymore for design ideas. I spend probably at least as much time deciding what I want to build and how I want it to look and then laying it out as I do actually building projects. Charles Neal says that you should even decide on the finish before you start. My favorite style is Arts and Crafts especially Stickley or Stickley influenced designs. I like the clean lines and honest craftsmanship. We are lucky enough to have a furniture store locally that sells mostly Stickley furniture so I can go look at their work. Our local art museum has a lot of oriental furniture, which I love to look at but have not had the courage to try out yet. Domer
I have been considering making some small pieces (boxes, bowls, pens, etc) to sell at craft fairs as you did. However, I see it as a way of spreading the word first and foremost above making money. Perhaps somebody will buy a nice box that I made and show it off, getting others interested in my work. Also, small things make it more affordable for people to own a piece of my work, as I wouldn't consider furniture to be an impulse buy.One thing that I really strive for is to make every piece my best - to not let anything out of the shop I am not happy with. I realize that sometimes this may mean you take a loss, but I'm at the stage where I see any high-quality work of mine out in somebody else's house a win. I've done one medeocre-quality job because I was counting hours and had a pre-determined price. Once I reached the point where I was breaking even, I stopped. I will NEVER do that again. I regret that to this day.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
All of the great woodworkers I have ever read about had the same philosophy. I listened to a very successful businessman talk a week or two and the said the secret to success is persistence, persistence, persistence.Domer
Chris,
you said: "One thing that I really strive for is to make every piece my best - to not let anything out of the shop I am not happy with. I realize that sometimes this may mean you take a loss, but I'm at the stage where I see any high-quality work of mine out in somebody else's house a win."I believe that there is a way of looking at "best" which is quite different than yours, and FAR more useful to a person who wants to be successful in woodwork. Have you ever put a piece in a contest, only to see pieces that you considered inferior to win? Of course you have. We all have. Here is the problem. You are looking at your own work through your own eyes. You need to look at your work through the eyes of the potential buyer. Those are two different things.A customer went to Ray and asked him to make a piece in the Art Nouveau style. That was not Ray's style. Ray figured out what the customer wanted,and made it for him, and the customer was happy. I believe Ray would have been happier making Chippendale or Queen Anne. You are still looking at pieces of furniture as "woodwork" - a combination of woods, joints and finishes. That is not how a client looks at them. I learned long ago that when I was going to enter a competition, the first thing I needed to know was what the judges thought was "GOOD". The judges think of themselves as important people who are "a cut above". I suppose I could tell them that, but if I want to win, I need to find out what they want to hear, and feed that back to them.Is that being "true to oneself" or have I prostituted my value system? If one wants to be successful, one has to judge oneself by the values of those who will be determining whether to buy his services/products. I remember an old cartoon from a management course I took decades ago. As a man walked into his house at the end of the day, his wife asks,"Well honey, did you tell the promotion board what you really think, or what they wanted to hear?"I don't think there are many people in the world who care what I think is good. I don't think there are many people in the world who care what I think. Most people care what they think. If you want to sell them something, then to hell with what you think, you need to get into their head. What do they think is GOOD? What will make them happy?Of course, if doing what you think is best is more important to you than being successful, my thoughts are completely irrelevant.Y'all have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,A non-woodworker's perspective is one thing I need. I need to know what they see and what they look at. On the demilune table I recently built, it took about an hour for the client to notice the dark brown accents I put on either side of the drawer. Perhaps I should go furniture shopping with some non-woodworkers and ask them what the look at and what they look for as marks of quality.GET TO KNOW YOUR MARKET. The goal is to make something that appeals to the customer. That's all that matters in the end. You make very good and entirely valid points.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Dear Mel,
No apology required. I was too quick in my own comments and hadn't taken the time to read all of the postings. You "amateurs" need to learn something. I find the skill level presented on this forum to be extraordinary. As a commercial operation, I have neither the time, nor frankly the skill to produce what I see here, never mind to make any money at it. I am thrilled when I hear of someone who is truly an artist and can manage to make a profit. It gives me hope! Don't under rate yourself!!Best,John
Dear Blade,
I have been at it for years. The profit margins range from Zero to nothing, but you always have the possibility of losing money on a project to keep you motivated.
Best,
John
The key to making money making furniture is saying no more often than you say yes.
If that sounds stupid to you and you don't understand it then don't even waste your time opening a business. If your goal would be to "close" every tire-kicker that walks through the door then go ahead and put a bankruptcy attorney's name and number in your Rolodex. You'll need one.
The vast majority of guys open shop and then proceed to manufacture, in small quantities, the same products huge concerns manufacture in large quantities. That's a recipe for financial ruin. The only way this business model will work is if your wife has a good job that pays all the bills. Then, you have a glorified hobby.
Edited 9/8/2009 3:24 pm ET by CStanford
John D. Rockefeller, the Original Rockfeller, the founder of the Rockefeller oil dynasty in New York, gives this advice on industry, business, profit and wise investing:"When I arrived in New York city, I was very nearly bankrupt, in finances and in spirt. I had less than one dollar to my name, and on that first, terrible evening, I spent five cents on an apple, and took it back to the room I was occupying for the last night.Just as I was about to bite into it, I noticed, in the candlelight, that the shine on the skin was uneven. I wiped it against my shirt, as people do, and saw that the shine was immediately and immensely improved. I then turned the apple in the candlelight, and studied it thoughtfully for a few minutes.I spent the rest of the evening polishing the apple, and in the morning, I stood on a corner and quickly sold my brilliantly gleaming apple for ten cents, twice what I had paid for it. It was the same apple, I had improved nothing but the appearance.I hastened to the apple seller I had patronized the previous day, but this time, I bought two apples, for the ten cents I had earned that morning.I now had a production problem. Because there was only one of me, the apples needed to be polished sequentially, and were going to take twice as long to produce twice as much of the same product. Each additional apple was going to add directly to my work load.I studied the problem while I polished both apples that evening, but try as I did, I couldn't see a solution-- twice as many apples, twice as much work.The next morning, I quickly sold the first apple for ten cents, proving that the previous sale had not been a fluke, and that my market actually existed, provided I could solve my production dilemma.As I stood there trying to sell my second apple, a beautiful brunette said hello, and I came face to face with the most beautiful woman in the world.I gave her the second apple, and went on to marry her, and she had five million dollars in the bank at the time."
That's a great story.
Jimhttp://www.jimreedy.com
Good story.
Anybody can be a 'pro' woodworker if momma is knocking down minimum high five/low six with suitably low expectations of hubby's actual contribution to the effort.
You dig?
Edited 9/10/2009 6:27 am ET by CStanford
Jammersix,
That was a good one , thanks for sharing it.
I know 2 VERY wealthy Cabinetmakers who both interestingly enough married women who happened to be filthy rich .
regards dusty
Dusty,
Are you saying that beautiful, wealthy women find woodworkers to be VERY VERY attractive?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
It's the Eau de Wooddust we all wear.It's a real chick magnet.
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