I’ve recently found myself using and/or wanting to use hide glue more frequently than in the past. (A recent unfortunate experience with a glue-up using good ol’ yellow PVA might have something to do with it….) This being the case, I’m trying to sort out the hide glue options.
Broadly speaking, as I understand things, there are two categories: hot hide glue and liquid hide glue. The former is the “original” version of hide glue, and typically requires a glue pot, some mixing, adding urea (and maybe salt), and the proper incantations to the responsible deities. The latter is a group of modern formulations, generally of the pour-and-play variety.
Looking around, one finds various sources for hot hide glue, with recommendations for adding urea and salt and the hairs of a leopard frog. There are also various liquid hide glues out there, the most common perhaps being the Tite Bond Liquid Hide Glue and the oft-recommended Old Brown Glue. [FWIW, the Tite Bond is the only hide glue I’ve used. So far, anyway.]
So…I’m tossing this up hoping that those with lots of hide glue knowledge/experience will chime in with pros and cons of the various options, recommendations, etc., with the objective of getting a little learning about the subject. I’ve done the requisite Google searches, and find that most of what comes up doesn’t answer as many questions as it raises. That said, if there’s a site/article or whatever out there that I should be looking at, please feel free to point me in that direction.
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Not an expert, but, some general points. For hot hide glue you don't have to add anything to it. Adding urea is how you turn it into something like old brown glue. It will give you a longer working time and the properties of liquid hide glue, but it isn't necessary for use. The advantages of hot hide glue are the different strengths and shorter open time, if desired. 192 strength glue is used for veneering and 251 is a general purpose furniture glue.
I would recommend going with liquid hide glue until you find a need for the specific properties of hot hide glue.
Thanks for the note about the urea and hot hide glue. I'd become slightly confused about the degree of necessity there, and it seemed most things I read either recommended or presumed the addition of urea. It may be that I was more or less unintentionally drifting toward such, since one of the attractions of hide glue is a relatively longer open/work time, with urea, of course, being one of the keys to such.
Yes, only add urea if you want to turn hot hide glue into liquid hide glue.
Add water and heat the dry hide glue. Use it for hammer veneering. It hardens when it cools, so you can literally rub two parts together and you're done -- no clamps. Great for things like knee blocks on a cabriole leg, or mouldings.
If your shop is really cold in winter, cold wood can cause hot hide glue to seize up before you get parts together.
Old Brown glue gets very thick at cool temps. I warm mine by putting the glue bottle in a pan of warm water before use. It's fantastic stuff. It allows you the most working time in a complicated glueup so you can get all the parts together and casework squared before it sets. You'd be tearing your hair out with titebond, because it hardens before you can finish assembly.
I use titebond original when glue narrow boards into a wider panel. For all other joinery I use old brown glue.
Patrick Edward's invented and makes Old Brown Glue, and has fantastic resources on his website.
https://www.oldbrownglue.com/
Titebond Liquid Hide is a mass produced liquid hide glue. Most of the bottles I see on store shelves are expired. I'd stick with Old Brown.
Thanks, John. It sounds like Old Brown Glue is the winning ticket for the sort of work I'm looking at. (I do mostly small-to-mid-sized furniture projects these days. On my third bedside chest in a row right now. A bit more time for glue-up is...nice.)
My shop is in a garage, with a thermostatically controlled space heater keeping things tolerable (usually low 60s even when outside is in the teens/twenties). I warm things up further with a larger electric heater when working. (To low 70s in winter; summer is of course a wholly different story.)
Hello plclark,
I have used hot hide glue since the early 1960's for traditional Spanish guitar making---and I love it, for that. But---I spent a few years making furniture, and never used it for that! I always used Titebond for furniture because it is a pretty good gap filler, has pretty good open time, and has much better shock resistance.
Disadvantage of Titebond is that all the old glue has to be cleaned off if you need to re-glue a joint. With hot hide glue, just add more glue. I've never used liquid hide glue as it has a bad reputation amongst luthiers.
Your joinery needs to be pretty accurate with hot hide glue.
Cheers,
Brian
Oh, the other great thing about hide glue is that it's invisible to finish. With Titebone, if you don't clean it off really well, the finish will show where you goofed. With hide glue you'll never see it.
This is one of the things attracting me to hide glue. One easily tires of the glue clean-up challenges.
Re. "I use titebond original when glue narrow boards into a wider panel". Not really clear here...Are you talking about a multi board edge join glue up? Curious, why in this case Titebond and not OBG?
I have used Titebond's liquid hide glue on occasion and have never used Old Brown Glue, and I don't disparage either one. I know expired dates are a problem with a lot of products. Your statement seems to imply that it is not a problem with Old Brown Glue. Is this what you meant?
I use the Titebond liquid hide glue all the time, especially for dovetail glueups and the like. The open time is great and the stuff is just slick as snot ...making assembly very easy. Never tried warming it, my shop is next to my utility room so no need.
It cleans up easy with water and will even re-wet if you have a drip you couldn't get to while clamped up. Not as smelly as OBG and a visible glueline in light woods.
I've never seen it in a store, I order online from Highland.
I've used it a bit, and am coming to like it. Sounding more and more like a toss-up between Titebond LHG and OBG--both shooting for the same niche, as far as I can tell. One from Big Corporation, other from Small American Outfit. I do find Titebond LHG in stores, including both local Ace and the Big Orange Box.
It is hard to find good information on hot hide glue. Here is a good place to start.
https://bjornhideglue.com/
Eugene Bjorn Thordahl is extremally knowledgeable, you can call and he will be happy to help. The site is also full of good info.
A few things I have found:
I have the dedicated electric pot, "hold heat" style, if you can find one, it works beautifully. A crock pot will probably work if one of it's settings will keep at 140°. You don't want to get it to hot.
One of the mistakes I made early was mixing to0 thick. I am now mixing somewhere in the neighborhood of 1-1/2 to 2-1 water to glue (by weight) but I end up adding glue or water to mix until it "looks "right. The other was expecting it would set very quickly. It takes a while to fully cure, I usually just leave overnight.
Take the time to experiment on your own.
I typically use without Urea as I usually don't require a long assembly time. Urea used in small quantities is useful for extending the open time. It takes a relatively large percentage to turn it into a cold liquid glue.
I mix in a small canning jar, heat in the pot and when I am finished using it I cap it and store in the refrigerator. To reuse, drop the jar back in the pot and reheat. This allows the same batch to be used many times. If you leave it out it will quickly degrade and provide fertile ground for mold.
Check out Bjorn's web site and good luck.
Thanks for the wonderful information! I'll check out Bjorn's website. You've made me want to do some experimenting. Again, thanks!
OBG works well, but will remain sticky in a humid environment, which makes clean up more messy.
Whereas HHG will dry crystallized.
The only reason I use HHG is for hammer veneering, it’s really not worth the effort over OBG for general gluing.
OBG and HHG need to be heated to 140°. You don’t need an expensive glue pot, although I have one, for years I got by with a slow cooker. I wouldn’t use a wax heater. I tried the wax heater recommended in a FWW article and it failed to make temp after the first use.
Care to share what was the issue with PVA?
The PVA issue was a simple one: big, complicated glue-up of cabinet using Titebond I; couldn't get it all together quickly enough. Resulting in difficulties with glue lines and getting things square. Not fun.
A search of the FW archives yields a dozen articles on using the different types of hide glue. Here is one that appeared relatively recently.
https://www.finewoodworking.com/videoworkshop/2020/03/the-fundamentals-of-using-hide-glue-with-patrick-edwards
Thanks! I'd searched the forum archives, but hadn't adequately investigated the magazine archives, and didn't realize it. This is very helpful.
An FYI regarding shelf life of Titebond LHG. I called Titebond and spoke with a very pleasant and knowledgeable gentleman about their product. The bottles in which it is sold are stamped with a manufacture date. There's a series of letters, followed by a number string that is of the following nature: YYMMDDBATCHNUMBER. Thus, the first six digits give the date of manufacture. Their public claim for shelf life is two years, extending/improved by refrigerated storage. The rep with whom I spoke said that under typical good storage conditions, the shelf life can extend well beyond the two year mark. Also, FWIW, their product is a 251 gram strength HG.
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