Actually not a complete beginner, but pretty close. I want to build some shop cabinets to practice a bit before moving onto bathroom vanities and some other projects.
Is Proulx’s hybrid approach to cabinets a good choice for a beginner?
Any other books I should look into?
Replies
Can you tell us what "Proulx's hybrid approach" is? I've never heard of it.
Thanks,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Well you're asking the wrong guy, but I'll do my best. I used to have a bunch of Knot's discussions on this bookmarked but lost them after my last hard drive reformat. Anyways...I think he uses a Euro style frameless cabinet that still allows the use of Euro hinges and slides. There are advantages to to Euro hardware that I don't fully understand mayby someone else will chime in.But unlike a Euro cabinet he also uses a traditional face frame where the inside dimension is flush with the inside of the carcass. The face frame then sticks past the outside of the carcass, at least on the sides. It may on the top and bottom as well, I'm not sure.So it offers the look and strength of a face frame style cabinet but with the advantages of the Euro hardware, or so I understand it.
My shop uses this technique almost exclusively for kitchen cabinets. It has many advantages (I've been thru this in earlier threads). Wherever the protruding face-frame is in a visible place, we add an outer wall flush with the outside of the frame, effectively giving a double wall. Among other advantages, it means you can make the insides of the cabinet completely different than the outsides - for instance - ply with laminate inside, solid wood outside.
We use this system not because we're beginners. We've been doing it for years, making a custom-made kitchen every week or so.
DR
Help me out here, your doubling the thickness of your cabinet walls? What thickness do you end up with? Is weight a factor when hanging your uppers?
We usually use face frames 1 3/4" to 2" wide. So the double wall, 3/4" thick each part, will typically have 1/4" - 1/2" of empty space inside. On bottom cabinets, it appears only at the end of a run, that is, where the wall is exposed to view. Every other meeting point, whether it's abutting a wall or another cabinet, the face-frame which extends outwards is easily scribed if necessary to make a perfect fit. On the upper cabinets, same principle. Usually the two sides and the bottom get doubled. The added weight? Compared to the weight of the dishes that get put inside, it's nothing. In my opinion the added material cost is also negligible, when compared to the advantages. Briefly:
The insides of every cabinet are flush with the frames. No-hassle drawer slides, hinges, etc. The drawers lose nothing of their effective width.
Every hardware meant for faceless frame cabinets can be used.
You have no conflict between the inside construction materials and the solid wood that is usually on the outside. In fact, the double wall allows us to use any fastener we please putting the carcase together - they get covered by the outer wall anyway. The outer wall has no load bearing responsibilities. It just needs to sit there and be pretty.
Very clean, and cleanable, insides.
Fitting cabinets next to crooked walls is extra-easy. The faceframes that touch the wall are ready to be scribed, and the carcases themselves are set in from the walls so they don't interfere.
On lower cabinets, you get an airspace between the carcase top and the countertop, which I think is an advantage. Using spacers and shims we can make any adjustment of the countertop that may be needed, raising or lowering the rear portion.
On work islands and some upper cabinets with lighting, the double wall gives a great place to run electric wires.
there are more advantages, but that'll do, I think.
DR
Thank you for your replies. That was very helpful. I did a search on Proulx yesterday and found some posts on his books but not an awful lot on his technique. I do remember reading a lot of helpful posts last year.What is your shop's preferred material for the carcass'? Melamine or something else? I'm thinking basic ply for my shop cabinets but for my bathroom vanities either UV cure prefinished ply or melamine. Also, if you don't mind, could you go into the advantages of frameless hardware a bit more? My primary concern is, as a beginner, ease of installation rather than function and space savings.Thanks again. I'll do another search specifically looking for posts you made.
"Also, if you don't mind, could you go into the advantages of frameless hardware a bit more?"Not Ring but I'm sure he'll agree. The hardware is very easy to install and very adjustable. It's concealed as well. The adjust ability is very important and missing from most other hinges. The drawback is that these hinges tend to sag over time which can only be adjusted so many times. At that point it's time to replace the hinges which is nothing more than a slight pain in the arse. Traditional hardware is longer lasting but far more finicky to install lacking the ability to be adjusted, this makes the initial hanging of the doors more difficult and the installation of the cabinets critical since any racking whatsoever throws the doors out of alignment.The 32 mm system is great for production. Lesser skilled workers can produce good results and the integrated use of the line bored holes really simplify installation of drawer slides, door base plates and shelves. Once wired for it a shop can make cabinets at quite an astonishing clip with the fronts being the slowest part of the job. All in all, the 32 mm system is much easier to produce, easier to install and is less expensive to produce.The key to using this hardware successfully for someone like you is to always drill practice pieces to be certain your distance from the door edge is correct as well as the spacing. Overlay doors will probably be easier for you than insets so get a good understanding of the base plates and hinges needs for full overlays and partial overlays. However if you choose to go with inset doors and face frames, a nicer looking job I believe, be certain of your hardware, there is a huge selection of hinges and base plates that can be very confusing.LeeMontanaFest
Thank you. Very helpful.My wife and I do like the look of face frames but with a standard or full overlay.Is there any tooling that is an absolute must for this system? I'm just now building my tools back up after several moves in the last few years.
CJH,
Our standard carcase material is 3/4" ply, with either HP laminate (formica) or veneer on the inside of the carcase. We never use melamine or chipboard.
Advantages of frameless hardware - there's a huge range of hinges for inlay, overlay, even rabbet applications, various opening angles and special circumstances. All of it can be accurately and repeatedly installed with a dedicated drilling machine. The cabinets and doors get painted without any hardware on them - it all goes on with clip mechanisms (no tools) after finishing. It sounds trivial, but it makes every stage from production thru installation a lot more efficient and easier to manage. The hinges are adjustable in all 3 planes, which is a huge help at installation. It's true that their life expectancy is shorter than traditional hinges, but the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. I can change the 5-year old hinges on a customers door and readjust the new ones in about 2 minutes flat, with only a philips screwdriver.
Don't get me wrong - in my own house there's butt hinges, nicely mortised into the frames. Everything I said above is about business, not the highest quality WW.
DR
Ring, What you describe is quite common in the industry these days. I'm curious about the tools and techniques used in your shop. What is the most common carcase joint? How is it cut? How are cases assembled? What sort of panel saw? How many people work in the shop and are the duties specific? (like is there one gorilla who cuts sheet goods all the time) Are cut lists generated in an office? Do you have a CNC router? Do shop guys do installation too? How big of a turnover is there in personnel? Panel saw? Bander? Line boring? Hinge boring and insertion?I've played straw boss in shops that made kitchens etc. and am just curious about yours.Lee
MontanaFest
Lee, lots of questions there!
The carcase joints are butt, usually with 2 biscuits just for alignment. We use a Senco crown stapler to hold it together, and add a reinforcing screw just in back of the face-frames. We cut everything on a SCM sliding TS with scoring blade. The faceframes get glued on (with biscuits) after the boxes are made. Typically, at the end of the first day on a kitchen, the carcases are all made and their frames are glued and clamped. Second day goes to adding details, like doubling walls, other elements like legs, etc. Third day all the F+P doors and drawer fronts get made. Fourth day they get fitted to their openings (no hardware). Then it all goes to sanding and finish. While the cabinets are being finished, the drawers get made. After finish, one day to put it all together, drill for pulls, etc.
The shop has 8 people working in it:
-full-time designer who meets with clients and makes all the shop drawings. We have the e-cabinet program but we generally do not use it. Only thing we computer generate is sheet layout for the TS, and even that only on large jobs.
-2 teams of 2 people in the shop. Each team takes a project thru from cutting up to finish, so any of them will be cutting, drilling, etc.
-1 additional helper, almost exclusively doing sanding jobs of all kinds for whichever team needs him.
-1 finisher, which is all he does.
-1 general manager / marketing person
Installation is usually done by the team that made the job, but with additional help as required.
We also keep a practically full-time metal worker busy with custom made pulls, drawer fronts, etc. in brass, copper and other stuff.
This is very much a family business. Two of my kids have been part of it for 7 years now. The core 6 people have been together for almost 10 years. The turnover is only at the "periphery". It's always been crucial to me that the atmosphere at work be a good one, so even the non-family members get treated as if they were.
Our machines are pretty ordinary WWing machines - aside from the slider, a bandsaw, RAS, shaper, jointer, thickness planer, stroke sander, oscillating drum sander, drill press, Blum drilling machine, small edgebander. We almost always use solid edgings. There are 2 rooms for finishing - one for spraying, the other for everything else, including storing what goes in and out of the spray room. Altogether, it's about 3500 sq.ft. of shop space (with another 1500 of office and showroom)
hope this satisfies your curiosity, regards,
DR
PS - you can have a look at some kitchens at http://www.touchwood.co.il
Ring, Those kitchens are beautiful. Thanks for sharing the pictures and the information about your process.
Thanks David, I didn't realize you are in Israel. I wonder if labor is easier to find and keep there. You have set things up very well for them by allowing them to see a project through from start to finish, it really cuts down on the fatigue and boredom as well as giving your guys a sense of accomplishment. It's tough to find those core employees here in the States and I think your model would help. Thanks for answering the questions, it's good to hear how shops like yours are doing.LeeMontanaFest
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