Replies

1. 
   blewcrowe | Apr 17, 2007 04:51pm | #1

   I wouldn't hesitate to use any of those glues.

2. 
   K1500 | Apr 17, 2007 07:15pm | #2

   I've heard PVA is PVA regradless of brand (ignoring type II and type III).  That said, I use Titebond original (I) for most of my stuff.  Elmer's etc. is probably equivalent, but I haven't used enough of it to say (and I haven't used any of your mystery glue).  Maybe glue up a test joint and beat it apart?

   
   

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   Edited 4/17/2007 12:34 pm ET by K1500

3. 
   HWG | Apr 17, 2007 08:26pm | #3

   The glue that you have is most likely equivalent to Titebond I, and should work fine if it has the characteristics that you want.  Titebond II and III offer more water resistance and a longer "open" time to work.  If you don't need these qualities then use the glue that you have.

   Woody

4. 
   terrylee86 | Apr 17, 2007 08:26pm | #4

   Your home hdw brand may be made by Franklin Adhesives.  I dont think there are too many wood glue makers out there.  It is probably Elmers or Franklin(Titebond).  If it less than a year old it will be fine, use it. I use TBIII exclusively for two reasons, it will set at 47 degrees F and it has a longer open time on assembly.  Glue is a very cheap part of any project, but if time is not a problem use what you have.

   Terry

5. 
   JohnWW | Apr 17, 2007 08:38pm | #5

   Nathan,

   As others have already said, your house brand of glue is probably as good as the brand names, and it is quite possibly made by one of the brand name manufacturers.

   You should be aware that the yellow glues have a limited shelf life. I rarely buy gallons even for the FWW shop since it isn't worth the risk that the last of the glue out of the big bottle may not bond properly. So if the gallon is more than 6 months old I would suggest that you make a test joint, gluing two boards edge to edge and then trying to break the joint a few days later, to make sure that the glue is still good.

   John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine

6. 
   AdamCherubini | Apr 18, 2007 03:46am | #6

   Truth is, there's not much difference in the strengths of any glues. Almost any glue, used correctly, will provide 3ksi of shear strength. The various Titebond products appear to differ primarily in their water resistance, 3 being the best, 2 being okay, with 1 (elmer's) being pretty poor.

   Franklin claims TB3 has a longer open time and assembly time and at the same time a higher initial grab. I've been playing with some samples I got in my goody bag at Williamsburg's ww conference this and last year. I can't speak to the open time, but the grab is noticably different (better, IMHO- TB2 can slip around when you put the clamps on. TB3 does this much less). I also think TB3 sands better- it seems stiffer than TB2, but I found no data backing that up on Franklin's website.

   My theory is that we should choose glues based not on strength (since they are all basically stronger than we need) but instead based on smell, cleanup, open time, grab, but most importantly, how they handle gaps. The bond strength achieved by PVA glue specifically, is very highly dependant on surface preparation and clamp pressure achieved. The smoother the surfaces and higher the pressure the better (within reason).

   Interpretting your question more loosely, depending on the specifics of your application, you may well indeed not have the best glue for the job. PVA is not best for unclampable joints like mortise and tenon joints if you are using those for the frames around the panels. I think PVA really excels at long grain edge joints, where high clamp pressure is easily obtainable (if you have enough clamps) and results in near invisible joints.

   Adam

1. 
   Nathan Barnard | Apr 18, 2007 02:16pm | #7

   Good comments. I will probably pick up some Titebond 3 for gluing up the frames. For now I have used the generic PVA for laminating up panels, as suggested.

   I have just started using a roller glue bottle (like Norm has), and find it works really well for achieving an even coat of glue on panels. Also using a damp sponge to clean up the glue before it sets. Together, with biscuits, it makes an efficient system for glueing up panels. Now all I need is a wide belt sander / drum sander..... may after a couple more commissioned kitchens.

   Nathan

2. 
   BarryO | Apr 19, 2007 02:59am | #8

   PVA is not best for unclampable joints like mortise and tenon joints

   You don't think that a properly-fitted M&T joint inherently provides enough clamping pressure on the glue surfaces?

1. 
   AdamCherubini | Apr 19, 2007 03:40am | #9

   You don't think that a properly-fitted M&T joint inherently provides enough clamping pressure on the glue surfaces?Define properly fitted. Piston fit? No. Snug? No. You would need an interference press fit and probably a tapered tenon. A fox wedged tenon might do it. Any wedged tenon could do it. But not a normal M&T like those I am familair with. I think PVA gives some properties with low or no pressure. I think these reduced properties probably are sufficient, at least for the short term, for many common applications. So we've been getting away with this. If lives depended on this joint the manufacturer would have warnings telling us not to use their glue in this joint because it develops no strength. Mortise and hand sawn tenons are joints developed for hide glue. Hide glue is the right glue for this joint, and possibly dovetails. PVA is best for long joints, lap joints.BTW, no Titebond product is approved for any structural application. Franklin makes other glues for real structural joints. Adam

   Edited 4/18/2007 8:53 pm ET by AdamCherubini

1. 
   Woodmaster1776 | Apr 19, 2007 05:01am | #10

   Very interesting, Adam. Thanks for the info. Will the packaged (bottled) be suitable or is it necessary to get involved with actual HOT hide glue?Bob

1. 
   AdamCherubini | Apr 19, 2007 03:00pm | #12

   "Will the packaged (bottled) be suitable or is it necessary to get involved with actual HOT hide glue?"The interesting subtext always left out in these glue articles of discussions is the "other issues" besides strength revolving around glue usage. So the liquid stuff is weaker and softer. And we usually think of that as bad. Well another problem with it is that it is generally more "thicksotropic" (i.e. more viscous) than hot glue, which can lead it to extrude out of tight joints. I made a Wm&Mary piece with leg that cylindrically tenoned into glueblocks in the case. I later had to disaasemble that piece. The very tight joints had no glue in them, and were only held by glue at the shoulder. So hide glue likes a little room in a joint. If you had a very tight joint, the cold glue would be more likley to extrude out than the hot thinsotropic glue. My thinking is that a hand sawn tenon with its ridges that compress slightly when the tenon is inserted is the "perfect storm" for hide glue. You get a good aligning fit, but also have the bottoms of the ridges for the glue to go (like a splined dowel, I guess). Hide glue has good gapfilling properties so this makes sense. This also explains why folks in the past believed rougher surfaces made better joints. They were wrong for every glue except hide glue and epoxy.Adam

7. 
   Steve50 | Apr 19, 2007 05:36am | #11

   There is not much difference in the PVA glues.  They pretty much have the same strength and with properly prepared and glued joints, are stronger than the wood itself.  That said, I have a preference for Titebond II Extend which has a longer open time than most other glues.  I have also recently tried the Titebond III which also appears to have a longer open time.

   Steve