Replies

1. 
   RSRose | Sep 12, 2002 11:41pm | #1

   Bighef,

   Peg the breadboard end at its center with a hole just large enough for the peg in the end and in the table's tenon. Peg it at its ends through a tight hole in the breadboard end, but through slots running perpendicular to the table length in the table's tenon so changes in the length of the breadboard end can occur.

   Rich

1. 
   racwood | Oct 09, 2002 07:02am | #8

   Rich, Is it a given that there is no glue involved in attatching the breadboard to table top?  I assume this to be the case else the two assemblies could not then "float" independently, right?  Am I correct?  I guess my concern is to get a nice tight joint between ends of boards and the breadboard end.  Is it a function of fitting?  FYI I am working on a rahter massive 10' X 3 1/2' pine table.  I need to decide if I'll go with open grain end or breadboard.  I'd like to choose breadboard but I admit I'm intimidated.  Any help/suugestions welcome.  Thanks in advance, Rich Collins

1. 
   RSRose | Oct 09, 2002 09:01am | #9

   Rich,

   The breadboard end is secured at its midpoint. The ends move relative to the midpoint with seasonal change. The midpoint attachment can be a small glue area, a pin, screw, almost anything. If glue is used it shouldn't extend much more than an inch or so or cracking could occur.

   There's no need to feel intimidated by your project. But since you do, it's because you don't have enough experience with the construction to be comfortable yet. Absent actually building enough table tops to feel you know how they behave with seasonal change, get several books and read about making the top from several different authors' points of view. Try to imagine yourself going through every step of the project in each book, until you feel that you know exactly what to do in each case.

   Not the same as "hands-on" but it'll help get you there.

   Rich

2. 
   BG | Oct 09, 2002 12:31pm | #10

   Racwood,

   I'm pretty much a novice to woodworking and in the last 6 months have used closed breadboard ends on three projects...I just like the way they look.

   As Rich suggested, just visualize all the process steps and try to mitigate the risk of a screw up.  I do mine with my plunge router.  A coupla fine points you might not be able to visualize:  1. some include a very slight bevel between the breadboard end and the table top..a 'v' grove...if you want that, do it before glue up.  2. scrape and sand before glue up both the breadboard and the end of the table top. 

2. 
   kahanj | Sep 13, 2002 10:01am | #2

   There's another option that's harder to explain but easier to construct than the multiple tennon, pin through elongated-hole method.  Pinning through the elongated holes requires you to cut grooves in the glue up tennons exactly parallel to the end of the glue-up.  If you fail to do so, your breadboard end will separate from the top when the humidity drifts in one direction and pinch (perhaps fatally cracking the breadboard end or the joint) when the humidity goes in the other direction.  While the pinned method is not impossible, Greene and Greene took a different approach.  You can find it illustrated in American Woodworker vol. 78 p. 28.

   Assuming you can't get your hands on a copy, let me try to explain.  Cut ong stub tennons on the ends of the glue up.  Cut mating grooves on the inside edges of the breadboards.  Drill elongated holes from the ouside edges of the breadboards ends into the groove, then cut shallow mortises around the elongated holes on the ouside edges of the BB ends.  Use no glue, but drive screws though flat washers with elongated holes, going through the bottoms of the mortises and into the tongue of the glue up.  Fill the shallow mortises with contrasting wood and place as many faux pins on the top of the breadboard end as your heart desires or your design will accomodate.  Of course the screw holes entering the middle of the glue-up's width can be round.

   A picture is worth a thousand words, so I urge you to take a look at AW, or a book on Greene and Greene if this piques your interest.  Clearly, the pin through method is a more "authentic" technique, but we could all do a lot worse than the work of the Greene brothers.

1. 
   RSRose | Sep 14, 2002 09:15pm | #5

   Kahanj,

   Lee valley has "expansion washers" pictured in their "Hardware Catolog" which they show fitted into a matching routed slot in a table apron with a screw into the underside of the top. Is this the technique you are describing?

   It's not really that hard to prepare the elongated holes perpendicular to the table length for pinning, although you're right that if they are not square, seasonal movement will separate the breadboard end from the top or pinch it against it.

   I don't like the thought of the faux pins. Today there is so much fake "Craftsman" style furniture with fake joinery detail. The essence of the honesty of that style is lost. But that's just me.

   Rich

1. 
   kahanj | Sep 14, 2002 10:35pm | #6

   Rich,

   I broke out my scanner for this, because I have the sense in re-reading my previous post that even my crummy picture is worth an infinite number of my crummy words.  At the risk of inviting the mockery of the World Wide Web, I've attached a rather crude sketch of the technique I described in my last post.

   Your own message raises an interesting philosophical question, somewhat akin to a Buddhist koan.  Just as I will never know the sound of one hand clapping, I may never be able to explain why I share your feeling that the screw technique seems vaguely inauthentic though two of the most revered exponents of the craftsman style apparently used it.

   Honestly, I have never attempted the Greene Bros. technique, though I have attached my fair share of breadboard ends using traditional pins through tenons.  Because the pin through technique courts disaster when cutting the slots (I'm sure everyone who's ever read this forum has had a fenced router slip away from the guide edge), I have been intrigued by the Greene Bros. solution.  I have been planning to try the screwed on breadboards on an upcoming project, and I thought it was worth sharing as a valid way to get the job done.  Of course to the extent you wanted to use this technique while remaining true to the undecorated look of Morris or Stickley, remember the screw-through method does not demand the application of any decorative faux pins or the use of contrasting stock for mortise plugs.

   To directly answer your question regarding the washers, yes, I believe the Lee Valley expansion washers would work at the base of the mortises.  Thanks for letting me know about them, I think they look a lot more convenient than spending an afternoon drilling out flat washers from HD.

   Jeff

   
1. 
   RSRose | Sep 14, 2002 11:26pm | #7

   Jeff,

   Thanks. Good points. The drawing clears it up. I wasn't able to picture it from your description. I've gotta get a scanner!

   Rich

2. 
   MStadulis | Oct 09, 2002 02:47pm | #11

   I have a tiger maple dining table that I made with this detail.  Had it for 15 years and still works great.   -Mike

3. 
   Jamie_Buxton | Sep 13, 2002 08:45pm | #3

   I've often wondered why people use breadboard ends on table tops.   As you've realized, they're difficult to build, and they have the nasty characteristic that the ends of the breadboard are never flush with the sides of the table.   Or maybe it is that they're flush only twice per year.

   Some folks argue that the breadboard end hides end grain, which they don't like for some reason.   However, the breadboard end itself has exposed end grain, so it isn't a complete solution to this non-problem.

   And mostly people argue that the breadboard end resists warping of the glued-up plank top.   However, most tables have another piece of wood that does this very nicely.   Most tables have an apron, or the top of a trestle, or the like, pretty close to the end of the table top.   It is typically much taller than the breadboard end can be, and so is much stiffer.   That is, it does a much better job of restraining the plank top than the breadboard end can do.

   So my suggestion is that you consider losing the breadboard end.

1. 
   RSRose | Sep 13, 2002 11:03pm | #4

   Jamie,

   "I've often wondered why people use breadboard ends on table tops"

   Because they are elegant, attractive and pleasing. I find the ever-varying distance between the breadboard end and the edge of the table top to be interesting and an indication of an honest acknowledgement of the nature of the material we love to work.

   Rich

4. 
   tedwick | Oct 10, 2002 12:51am | #12

   I like bread board ends as an ingredient of design.  It works best from my perspective if you don't try to make it look exactly the same thickness, or the joint too 'perfect.'  

   Like the new pre finished flooring, if there is a slight round over, or even a small chamfer on the edges, you don't sense the movement as much.

   Green and Green and many oriental wood working traditions make the cross piece end embellished or even curved up to add interest and sometimes for functional reasons.

   The best  way to keep table top clue ups from wanting to warp is to find good stable quartersawn wood.

   I also have a device that uses a router for the final edge cut-the device holds the edges so you cut on opposite sides so that if there is any imperfection in the'straight edge, and you match to pieces as you had them in the device, it is more accurate than with a joiner where you might get a small curvature that works against the mated edge joint.  It is called jointability and works really well to get that joint that is not fighting opposite (though slight) variables.

   George Nakashima has a wonderful variation on the breadboard where it is glued tight in the corners, but in the edge joined flat pieces, they come together  as a lap joint.  The movement accross the grain is taking place in the unglued lap joint.  this works well for something where you don't want the exterior measurements to change-like the floor of a cedar chest.

   Experimenting with different treatments, even differnt woods can add a dimension of interest to a breadboard joined surface.

   Think experimental, and find ways to improve on the last one.   There is no end to what you can do.

   Ted

1. 
   racwood | Oct 10, 2002 03:15pm | #13

   To Everyone, This may sound crazy, but is there any place for waxing (even slightly) any part of the joint between top and breadboard to FACILITATE movement?  I am putting together 42" pine table top from 1 5/8" stock 100 years old.  How much movement might I anticipate? (climate of Sacramento, CA)  Once again, thanks in advance!  Rich Collins

1. 
   tedwick | Oct 10, 2002 03:45pm | #14

   Greetings!

   I lived near Napa for 20 years so am acustomed to the wet-dry seasons of Northern California.

   You will experience movement with that wood in that climate.  Waxing would do no harm except if you glued at some point where the wax was placed-then no bond for the glue joint.

   With wood of that thickness I would recommend a 1/2 inch tongue and groove all across the breadboard joint.  Also if you have the length or if you could use floating tenons to have tenons in the corners an inch or more deep- that will strengthen the breadboard joint.  You could use 3/8" t&g-at least more than a 1/4".

   Don't glue the tenon- A long single screw in the middle  of the bread board is the best.  You might want a slight curve in the length of the breadboard so that when fitting there is a small space in the middle with the ends tight-when you draw the screw up tight(closing the gap), you will maintain a tight joint all across the table.  Plug it and let hygroscopic action do what it will.

   Good luck!

   Ted