Replies

1. 
   Alan | May 24, 2002 01:41am | #1

   Roland,

   I have experience with the Lion trimmer, but not the others.  The blades that came with my Lion were great heavy things, made of excellent steel (I guess--I'm not a metallurgist) that took a very fine edge.

   I used the Lion not just to sweeten miters, but also to square the ends of stock for drawers, trim molding, and anything else that seemed appropriate.  It did every operation cleanly, easily and accurately.

   The picture frames I made were all hardwood of some kind or another:  most commonly I used white oak, red oak, mahogany and walnut.  Hardwood didn't bother it in the least.  I also used it to sweeten the miters on moldings (ahh, my too few finish carpentry days...but I digress) and it cut through softwood with ease.

   Now (another senior moment?) I can't remember exactly how often I had to sharpen the blades, but if it was real often you can bet I'd remember.  As best as I can estimate, I could use it perhaps a few dozen times before the blades needed to be resharpened.  Of course this depended on the type of wood that went through it, how much f a slice I tried to take (the thinner the better) the dimensions of the stock--you know, all the usual stuff.

   To make an already too long story longer:  I can recommend the Lion--so long as it's the same as they made them way back in the seventies.

   If you get a Grizzly or a Woodtech please let me know how you like it.  I'm considering getting another miter trimmer.  I know the Lion is, or twenty-five years ago was, a quality tool.  But if I can save a hundred dollars or so....

   Alan

1. 
   DougU | May 24, 2002 04:54am | #2

   I own a lion trimmer that belonged to my grandfather and he has been dead for 10 years and he was 97 when he died so the tool goes way back,  The place that I work just bought one and it is identical to the one that I own, I mean identical, parts would interchange and all. I dont think that I would buy one of the cheaper ones because of the old adage that you get what you pay for, but then again I didnt have to pay for the one I have. I do believe that you would be happier with the lion over the others though.

   Doug

2. 
   BenM | May 24, 2002 03:05pm | #3

   FWW had an article on miter trimmers back in Issue 71 (July/Aug 1988).  I believe the Lion came out on top.

3. 
   roly94 | May 24, 2002 06:23pm | #4

   Thanks everyone for the input and responses.Very helpful information.

    I wonder in what way the Lion is superior to the Grizzly or Woodtech;in quality of blade perhaps(in which case one could always upgrade to a superior steel blade,maybe A2 steel or something) or in overall fit and finish and therefore accuracy.

    I am thinking from the mfg.'s viewpoint.It shouldn't be too hard to produce a contrivance like a Miter trimmer for around $100.Why the Lion with the $100 differential puzzles me.Could it be merely prestige pricing or something?

    Oh incidentally I have read here(check the archives) that the Lion is made in Taiwan now.The Grizzly and Woodtek I would wager Taiwan also,though,possibly China.

    Thanks tons again,Roland.

1. 
   rslatm | May 24, 2002 07:16pm | #5

   Actually you don't even need the lion trimmer if you use a miter sled for frames. The advantage is you save a step and it gives repetitive lengths which requires setting up a length stop system on the lion trimmer. I bought a lion trimmer years ago for $25. Made  a miter sled for my tablesaw  and   sold my lion trimmerit for $125 and never regretted it since.

1. 
   roly94 | May 24, 2002 07:41pm | #6

   hi rsl,

    Yes you are correct.I make alot of frames with just my table saw and sled.I am a type A and and aim for perfection.That is why I was wanting the trimmer.I have a cheap saw and the accuracy required for oak frames 3" wide is right up there with a machinist's level of accuracy.I was hoping with a trimmer to gain  that extra bit of marginal accuracy.

   Incidentally what tablesaw blade would you recommend for crosscutting miters?thanks tons in advance.Roland.

1. 
   ETG | May 24, 2002 07:51pm | #7

   I've been following this thread because you see so little dialogue on the Lion Trimmer.  Not sure where it's made but the added cost can certainly come from a "more controlled process" in the plant where they are made - better machining centers, attention to process/quality, etc.

   You mention that being a type A personality that strives for perfection - well if you really want to go there, the production shops who really want consistent, day in day out miter cuts go with machine like those made by Pistorius (http://www.pistorius.com/index.html.  But like the Lion Trimmer, there's a price to pay for solid, accurate machines.

   As for blades, check out what Pistorius recommends for their products - they're in the miter machine business.

1. 
   roly94 | May 24, 2002 09:21pm | #8

   Ed,

    Thanks for the reply.Yes I am aware of Pistorius.I have been to that site.Nice machines.

   However that is not my philosophy.Very expensive machines to save a marginal amount of time.If one has a production shop and churns out alot of product at marginal margins(redundant?) then I would say go for it.Those minutes saved add up to alot on an annual or even monthly basis.

   However for a small,versatile custom shop(low production,higher margins) I don't think expensive dedicated machines are necessary.Not just for doing miters but for things in general.Expensive machines certainly make life easier but in the process you become machine dependent.

   Space is more important in a small shop.One can use cheap power tools and then refine joints with hand tools to do anything the expensive machines do and save alot of money and space in the process.This is the better approach,one isn't so dependent on the machine and TVA.

2. 
   ETG | May 24, 2002 09:53pm | #9

   Roly:

   I understand your philosophy and think it is admirable.  And in a small shop the Pistorius is overkill (unless you can pick up a used one at a good price) although their footprint is quite small.  They do more than add marginal savings in a production shop - in manufacturing we use the term "having your processes under control."  That means consistently making the same cuts regardless of who operates the machine (obviously they are trained) and the quality will be consistent (basic underpinnings of Demming's quality principles).  In large shops that I have visited and consulted with, the introduction of specialized machines improves quality (consistency) and increases throughput and minimizes set-up time (set-ups kill you with high costs).  While buying a dedicated machine in a small shop may not be practical, many of the principles used in large operations can still be used - minimizing set-ups, minimizing or eliminating the variables with machines and flowing the process all help make a repetitive process flow with good quality.

   All those things I just mentioned should also go into the manufacture of miter trimmers like the Lion.  It would be wonderful if FWW would repeat the evaluation of the various machines on the market - and you have a real need for your operation - you should  get FWW to have you evaluate the various trimmers again.  Your interest in a quality end product and the desire to use these machines in the final fit/finish would make you a good reviewer - go for it!

4. 
   Alan | May 25, 2002 02:02am | #10

   Roland,

   Sorry to chime in again, but I just didn't think of this when I wrote about how wonderful my old Lion trimmer was.

   Doing less than ten frames a week, have you considered using just a shooting board and a hand plane?  (You could shoot the works and buy one of the Lie-Nielsen miter planes.)  It would be a little slower than the Lion--but not all that much slower.  Invest in some plywood, some hardwood and an afternoon and you can make a shooting board the will give you results equal to the results the Lion would give you.

   Just a thought.

   Alan 

5. 
   roly94 | May 25, 2002 08:20pm | #11

   Hi everyone,

    Guys thanks for the input and kind words.

    Ed,You are exactly right about minimizing set-up time.That is what I am in the process of doing now.When I acquire all the additional dedicated machines I deem necessary to make my product in the most expedient manner,yet not compromising on quality, I am going to do time studies of myself.I am going to play industrial engineer and really refine the process.I also agree with you that FWW needs to review the miter trimmers again.Every woodworking magazine and their brother has done the conventional miter saw,bandsaw,router,table saw review,etc.etc.It would be nice to see a review of a few specialized tools like the trimmer that everyone could use in their shop to really refine their joinery in general(not just miter joints).

    Alan,I have made a shooting jig.It is somewhat complicated concept,at least to me.First hardly no plane is really true enough,side to sole that is,to perform such a task.I suppose one could shim(like I did) or spend a week lapping to get in the neighborhood- but even then I wouldn't bet on it.Also assuming one has such a perfect plane there is much room for operator error.It is really easy to rock(imperceptibly that is) the plane when shooting.Lastly and most importantly in my mind(someone correct me if I am wrong) all a shooting jig really does is refine the edge,i.e.,make it flatter off the saw.It  really doesn't "true" it up relatively speaking.If I come up with a miter cut off the saw that is 44 degrees and some odd minutes and seconds a shooting jig will not true it(i.e.,"correct" it to 45 degrees) whereas a miter trimmer or disc sander has such capablities.Not only does the trimmer and sander refine the edge and make it flatter,smoother, but also "corrects" it if slighly off 45 degrees.This is what I am thinking,however,I am no master.Again,someone please correct me if I  am mistaken.Thanks tons again everyone.Roland.

1. 
   Alan | May 26, 2002 02:35am | #12

   Roland,

   Shooting boards do, indeed, "correct" imprecisely cut miters.  That's sort of the point of them.  They're not just for smoothing the cut.

   I'd like to know what planes you have that are so far off that you can't get a true cut on a shooting board.  I have three planes I regularly use on my shooting board:  one Stanley, one Record and one L-N.  They all make precise cuts.  Have you checked that the base on which the plane rides and the platform where the stock rests are parallel?  Are you sure your irons are not ground with a skew or an arc?  Did you double check that the iron was properly aligned with the sole of the plane, and then locked down tight?  As you can tell I find it very hard to believe you had that much trouble and I'm looking for things that might have gone wrong.

   BTW, I know all about these things that can go wrong because I've never had any of those things go wrong for me!  (And if you believe that you'll buy this watch.)

   Alan

6. 
   domermatt | May 26, 2002 06:29am | #13

   Roly,

   You say you need a miter trimmer because your table saw isn't accurate enough. Then you say you don't know whether the extra hundred for the Lion is worth it.  Think about it. For a couple hundred more you could have had a high quality table saw that cuts miters accurately and repeatedly.  Now you have to add another step, and again are thinking with your wallet.  The reason Lion Miter Trimmers cost more is because they are made just like they have been for a century or so--of the highest quality. These knock-offs are called knock offs for a reason.  They are imported and lower quality than the Lion. I think you underestimate all it takes to make a tool that can repeatedly cut accurate miters.  Being a perfectionist I thought you would notice the better machining present on the Lion.

   I own a Lion, an antique one with some replacement parts. Once I adjusted it (took about an hour) it works perfectly, every time. I cut 3/4 by 3 oak without any problems. I would agree that it would needs a sharpening every 6 or 7 jobs.

   I hope this post doesn't seem condescending, but you really should get the highest quality there is not hassle with low cost imports.  I think you'll be very pleased with the Lion.

   Matt Mulka
7. 
   roly94 | May 30, 2002 12:33am | #14

    Thanks to everyone who contributed to this post.I'll probably go with the lion.

   Alan,thanks for the comments.I still don't see,however,how a shooting jig can "correct" an imprecise- off- the- saw miter.Shop notes had a variations of a shooting jig that probably could but your regular type(the type Michael Dunbar uses and explains in FWW) I would think would only "true up" the end-grain plane with the long grain plane,i.e. make it 90 degrees.The cross cut plane,here the 45 degrees,would be whatever it was off the saw,however imprecise it may be.

    A disc sander or trimmer,theoretically,can take whatever angle,e.g.35 degrees,and by progressive sanding or nibbling arrive at a 45 degrees.Thanks again all,Roland.

1. 
   Alan | May 30, 2002 06:55am | #15

   Roland,

   I will apologize in advance if I'm wasting your time by writing at length about things you already know, and I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but...  Perhaps we're talking about two different tools when we both say "shooting board."  Otherwise I can't conceive of why you would think it wouldn't or couldn't correct a miter.

   What I mean by "shooting board" is a flat board (I make mine out of 3/4" plywood) with another flat board (more 3/4" ply) attached to the top.  On this top board I often glue a piece of 3/4" hardwood to the working edge.  Before this top board is attached to the bottom board I plane the hardwood edge perfectly straight.  The top board is attached to the bottom board  so as to leave a shelf on the bottom board for the plane to ride on.

   Onto the top board I attach a fence--usually either more plywood or hardwood--again jointed straight.  The fence is attached at any angle I want to shoot  ( all mine are either ninety or forty-five degrees).  This has to be done with painstaking accuracy.  On the forty-five degrees board I set the fence so that the plane will cut "up" the grain:  i.e. so the plane moves towards the long edge of the stock.

   Once the fence is in place I run whatever plane I'm going to use along the shelf, taking thin shavings off of the top board and the fence until there is a little step at the bottom of the top board--where the plane iron doesn't reach.  The shooting board is then ready for use.

   In use I put the stock I intend to shoot up against the fence and then slide the plane along its shelf.  I set the plane to take a very fine shaving, and I keep advancing the stock a tiny bit at a time, still moving the plane along its shelf, until the edge of the stock is the way I want it.

   So long as the fence is accurately set the process will "correct" any angle to the angle of the fence--it cannot do otherwise.  Often, in fact, if I have a fairly thin piece of softwood to cut to forty-five degrees, I will not bother to rough cut it with a saw, I will just stick it on the shooting board and nibble it down to the forty-five degree angle.  When I'm truing up the ends of stock for drawers I never use a saw for the first end.  Once again I just use the shooting board (my ninety degree board) to make the first end ninety degrees, and I make all my measurements from that end.

   Once again, sorry:  I know this is long, and I'm probably telling you things you already know.  But, again, I just can't see why you would think a shooting board wouldn't automatically cut the end of the stock to the angle of the fence.

   Alan

8. 
   ETG | May 31, 2002 06:33pm | #16

   Roly:

   Just remembered some wonderful visits I made many years ago to a large pattern shop that was attached to a foundry.  Patternmakers work to all the precision that a cabinet maker or picture framer would - they use both softwood - usually sugar pine and some hardwoods like cherry.  When they wanted to "clean-up" a miter, they used a 20 inch disk sander that ran continuously all day.  It was a massive piece with a large cast table and a very accurate miter gauge.  I'm not sure what grit they used - probably 100 or 120 and all the time I was there, different pattern makers would walk over and lightly touch a fresh cut edge to the disk sander.  I guess it was their version of a Lion trimmer.  Since then, I have seen cabinet shops who are lucky enough to find one to have a large disk sander for touch-up work.  Something you might want to consider - but again the good ones are expensive - as much or more than a good cabinet saw.

   Ed Gregg

1. 
   roly94 | Jun 05, 2002 06:06am | #17

   Alan.

   I'll give the shooting board idea another try.I am not going to buy a miter trimmer soon because it has be pre-empted by a more accurate biscuit joiner.Thanks  for the description.Roland.

    Ed,

    Yeah those disc sanders are nice.The 12" ones aren't really all that expensive either compared to the bigger ones.That is all one really needs actually.I would think a 12" would do 95% or better what the average joiner needs done.That would handle 6" miters.Thanks Roland.