Hi gang:
Can you tell me where most of the noise that comes from a cyclone dust collector comes from? Is it the body of the cyclone, the exhaust, or ??? Does putting the collector in a closet do the trick? Or will I have to worry about the exhaust?
This is prep work for the next shop I am planning to build. Thanks.
Replies
Most of the noise produced by my cyclone comes out of the exhaust. My plan is to frame it into a closet. I don't think I'll need any special noise insulation because the cyclone doesn't produce all that much noise (about the level of driving down the highway with the windows open).
I should add that not all cyclones produce the same amount of noise. For comparison sake I'm running an Oneida 2hp Commercial with the 36" external cartridge. There is a "muffler" designed on the outlet that helps with the noise (basically foam wrapped around a wire cage).
--Rob
Edited 8/13/2004 8:13 am ET by Rob
Hey Rob:
Do you know how Oneida's noise compares to Woodsucker's? I read that the Woodsucker is pretty loud, but moves more air per hp.
Sorry about not getting back to you more quickly. I've heard similar things about the Woodsucker. I think the Woodsucker may have a bit more CFM. but have heard from others that it is pretty loud. How much louder, I don't know. I think a recent comparison showed this. I think if might have been in Wood.
It makes sense to me that the Woodsucker is louder, however, based on its filter design. The Woodsucker pushes the air from the outside of the filter to the inside of the filter. The Oneida pushes from the inside to the outside. I think the inside out design of Oneida benefits from naturally quieter operations.
--Rob
Remember that if you take 1000 cfm of air out of the shop through dust collection, you have to put 1000 cfm back in from somewhere. So if you put your dust collector in another room, you still have to get the air out of that room, and a similar amount of air back into the shop. And if the shop air is heated or cooled, you have to heat or cool the make-up air if you don't reuse the air from the dust collector.
Some of the shop disasters don't take the make-up air into consideration, so air is pulled DOWN the chimney, including carbon monoxide from furnace or water heater.
________________________
Charlie Plesums Austin, Texas
http://www.plesums.com/wood
I should've said that I am not planning to exhaust it outside. I am now, with Franklenstein kludge setup, but that's only 600 "paper" cfms, so it hasn't been a real problem. Even internally exhausted, I need to reduce any db's I can.
I have this crazy idea, what if I exhausted into an array of cheap car mufflers? Like say...I put it the cyclone in a closet, then have the closet exhaust into an array of mufflers...hairbrained?
I have the same unit as Rob but with the internal filter. The unit is not enclosed and is equiped with a muffler. The noise is quite tolerable. My shop is well sealed so I opted not to directly duct to the outside becasue of the need to either warm or cool the replacement air.
I do think it would be interesting to have someone in the know opine regarding the reality of removing 2000 cfm of air on an intermitent basis. I have six windows, a single-car insulated roolup garage door, a 6' double door and the main 3' shop door. Compared to the total volume of air in my 9x20x35 shop, my guess is that I could probably run that sucker all day long without appreciably increasing my cooling costs during the Texas summer.
Doug
Doug:
Wouldn't your shop volume be 6,300 cf? Your shop air would totally be removed in over 3 minutes, no?
Here in the midwest, I don't think I can vent outside and afford to cool/heat the replacement air, especially if I am planning to move enough air to really control dust correctly.
I got a crazy idea to even oversize the dust collector, send the exhaust to some water filter Rube Goldberg to really get everything...
Edited 8/13/2004 11:45 am ET by TUFENHUNDEL
I know that is what the math says but I have problems thinking a 5" port can "empty" a shop full of air in 3 minutes. I honestly don't know the relationship between flow and volume. Hopefully someone will clue me in on this.
Doug
If the room were sealed, the dust collector would quickly lose the flow rate, and would certainly not empty the room. However, if the dust collector really moved the rated amount of air, and if you took whatever steps were necessary to keep it working well (like providing make-up air), the time it would take to move the amount equal to all the air in your shop really is just minutes.
When you heat or cool your shop, you are heating or cooling all the things in the shop, not just the air. Heating or cooling the make-up air is not as impossible as it may seem, but it still makes me want to filter the air and return it to the shop, rather that always using "new" air.
Any muffler that reduces the noise will also reduce the efficiency of the airflow. However, a well designed muffler doesn't hurt much, so there are mufflers that you can buy specifically for cyclones. (I use a bag-type dust collector, so I can't give first hand experience, but I have heard good things bout the mufflers).________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
Hey Doug,
My opinion / observation is that the exaust of a medium sized DC is moving AT LEAST twice the air that a standard airconditioning vent does. So imagine taking two AC vents and having them blow outside! That would be expensive!
I am considering putting my DC outside but having the exaust returning to the garage, like a residential AC system. Has anyone seen this? Or heard it?
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
An outdoor DC with return air to the shop is done all the time.
If you ran the DC continuously, the cost of heating or cooling the make up air would be significant in some climates. The way I run my system, only turning it on when needed, means the DC typically doesn't run more than a few minutes out of every hour. For a good portion of the year, here in New England, the replacement air doesn't need a significant amount of of heating or cooling, so the cost isn't significant and the reduced noise and complete elimination of dust being carried back in is worth it.
John W.
I have the Oneida 1.5 hp unit with an internal filter and without a muffler. I agree that the noise is mostly from the exhaust. I have the exhaust pointing away from my workspace, and the noise is not too bad. I typically wear ear protection when using it, but more due to the tool it is attached to. For instance, I typically won't wear the muffs when bandsawing with the dc on.
A good set up for a dust collector, one that is used in most commercial shops, is to move the DC out of the shop completely, into a small separate enclosure on the side of the building. This will eliminate the noise and will also keep the dust from emptying the collection barrel out of the shop. As an added bonus, an outside dust collector will free up a few more square feet of shop floor space.
Unless you live in an extremely hot or cold climate and/or will run the system continuously, I would simply dump the exhaust to the outdoors and use fresh air for the makeup air rather than recycling the exhaust. This completely eliminates returning any of the finest, most dangerous dust that gets past the filters to the shop and keeps all of the noise outside also.
If you'll have neighbors close by, the DC would have to be in an insulated closet with a door and a simple baffled grill for the exhaust air. If your new shop won't have neighbors within hearing range, the DC will only have to be protected from the weather and possibly need only a shed roof to keep the rain off.
John W.
John,
The noise I am most concerned with is what the neighbors will hear. I can deal with the noise myself, as I almost always wear hearing protection. I am planning ahead so I can integrate sound proofing into the construction process.
The shop building itself will need boku sound proofing, to be sure. I have experience with most shop tools, so I know what to prepare for. The cyclone will be new for me. Thanks.
I located my cyclone outside the shop under the eves. It is in a little 5' wide side yard with a fence that is on the property line on the other side of the yard. I built a roof out of corrugated plastic that goes from the edge of the eves to 6" from the top of the 7' fence.
My Pentz/Echols cyclone is powered by 2 of the now famous HF blowers.
dB level inside the shed and 5' from the blowers is 82 (loud but not yet dangerous). The noise level inside the shop with one blast gate open is 66dB (conversation level). At the property line the meter reads 67dB. Inside my neighbors house which is also 5' from the property line the DC can hardly be heard and the meter doesn't register at all.
The only thing I did in the way of sound deadening was enclose the 6" line that runs from the blowers to the baghouse with 7" flexible insulated heater ducting.
BTW the thing works way better than I expected. I feel it works as good as my friends 3hp Oneida cyclone (he does too). Total cost for the whole set up was about $450.Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it. Ronald Reagan, August 15, 1986
I wouldn't believe these numbers if you hadn't measured them. I am feeling it will be easier to do this than I'd originally thought. Thanks. BTW, that Pentz design is cool. I am tempted to build it if I weren't more focused on getting products out of the shop.
:)
My best friend is a electrician. He is the one with the dB meter.
It is not all that hard to do. I was a bit wary at first too.
Wan't pics?Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it. Ronald Reagan, August 15, 1986
I would appreciate seeing photos of your "outside the shop" collection system.
Thanks.
OK. I'll take some later today, then see if I can figure out how to post pics here.Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it. Ronald Reagan, August 15, 1986
Hi SKRAMME,
Here are the pics I promised of my 2 HF blower cyclone that I put outside under the eves. It was hard to get far enough away to get a good over all view.Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it. Ronald Reagan, August 15, 1986
Yikes! For all you without super speed connections, here are those pics resized to a bit smaller size.
BTW: Good looking setup. Do the two blowers run the same main or do they run seperate ones?
--Rob
Rob,
Thanks for resizing those photos!-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Rob,
Thanx a bunch for resizing my pics. I was hoping to do it myself but didn't know how.
As to your question, the two blowers are 'Y'ed into the top (outlet) of the cyclone and I have just one 6" main duct suppling the inlet of the cyclone.Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it. Ronald Reagan, August 15, 1986
Thanks for the pics, great way to save interior space in the shop.
Anyone interested in measuring sound pressure levels ("loudness") can pick up an inexpensive SPL meter from Radio Shack that'll do the job well enough for the kind of comparisions being discussed here.
FWIW, each increase of 3dB represents a doubling of the loudness (it's a log scale).
IMO, hearing is well-worth protecting; once damaged, our ears don't regenerate.-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
> ... hearing is well-worth protecting; once damaged, our ears don't regenerate.
I had a class in accoustic engineering/design back in college. The instructor's favorite example of how the body deals with noise overkill is .... deafness! You're absolutely right!
I spent some time in the military back when hearing protection wasn't given much thought or attention. The hours spent on the rifle range have taken their toll! Of course my addiction to loud music in my youth didn't help a great deal, either.
While I've alreay lost about 75% of my hearing in the upper register, I still don the earmuffs when running the jointer or planer - especially the planer as one of the first signs of potential damage to the hearing is ....
pain!
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
"Of course my addiction to loud music in my youth didn't help a great deal, either. "
Dennis,
I hear ya (so to speak). In my teens and early twenties, before healthy doses of reality taught me I was mortal, I spent way too much time in front of refrigerator-sized loudspeakers driving my hearing into oblivion in my attempts to emulate my favorite bass players. The irony is that, having finally "mastered" the instrument, hearing aids are now inevitable.
For those who may think that woodworking noise is tolerable, I'd point to my first meeting of the San Diego Fine Woodworking Association: there were so many hearing aid wearers in attendance that I wondered if I'd stumbled into the wrong meeting.
I now buy foam earplugs by the case and hand them out "like candy" in the hopes that, once my students and co-workers have tried them, they'll keep wearing them.
Tangentially, I'm also concerned about little kids who are involuntary captives in automobiles equipped with thundering sound systems that make the output of my old stage setup seem puny. There's likely to be a cross-section of the current generation who are deaf as runway rabbits long befoe they reach middle age.
Well, that's probably enough noise from me,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Edited 8/18/2004 1:34 pm ET by jazzdogg
I think one thing to keep in mind is that of all the tools in the shop, the DC is probably the least noisy. Even at 81db a DC doesn't compare to the 100+ db of a TS, router, or planer cutting wood. If inside a building, it is unlikely that the DC is the tool that will be the most notable. For me, the air compressor is probably the loudest thing in the shop.
--Rob
Duly noted.
I think one thing to keep in mind is that of all the tools in the shop, the DC is probably the least noisy
You think so? Mine is by far the noisiest, except for the router table. it's not a cyclone, though.
I never understood those who say the TS is noisy; mine seems pretty quiet; certainly no noisier than the bandsaw.
I'm on vacation now, and in the process of building a shed for the DC out back. Talk about how climate makes a difference: here in the Pacific NW, I'd never think of putting an expensive pice of equipment under the eaves. Several months of continuous 90+ humidity would turn it to a rusty pile. it's hard enough keeping rust off the tools that are inside!
"I never understood those who say the TS is noisy; mine seems pretty quiet; certainly no noisier than the bandsaw."
My TS is also very quite when it is on. It's when I start cutting wood with it that it gets loud. I found the following chart on Oneida's site awhile back. It provides a general idea of the noise level produced by some WW machines. Anything over 85db can result in hearing loss with continued exposure.
Machine
Decibel Range
Avg db in operation
Radial Arm Saw cutting 2x4
100 - 112
105
Table Saw 10" ripping 1/2" thick oak
99 - 110
103
Miter Saw cutting oak strips
99 - 110
104
20" planer with 14" wide maple
98 - 103
101
Router Table with 1/2" straight cutting bit
98 - 100
99
Hand Belt Sander on oak
94 - 99
95
Jointer edging 1/2" oak
90 - 96
94
Hand Orbital Sander on oak
78 - 80
80
Scroll Saw with 1/2" oak
79 - 81
80
--Rob
Hey All,
I have the 3 HP Onieda that I exhaust outside the shop. No filter, just the cyclone and a downward facing exhaust. I have checked after a snowfall and there is literally no discoloring of the snow from dust. Pretty good, those cyclones. Noise is acceptable, I leave a window cracked for make up air so that I am not drawing down the stove chimney. Even here in CT, unless it is very cold (under 10 degrees F) heat loss is not a big deal.
Good luck!
John
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled