Replies

1. 
   DaveHeinlein | Mar 03, 2004 02:41am | #1

   No takers? Just bumping it back up. :^}

1. 
   RANGERP75R | Mar 03, 2004 04:43am | #2

   Dave

      Go over top the Jesus dove-tail thang in Cafe and seek a post by Jon A. Either e-mail him off that or ask him to look for this thread. That will get that old fella up from his nap. Calling him an old fella might just do the trick also.

      Or you could just re-post "Liberal Needs Help with Hemlock" and that'll get him immediately. he... he.....

   Regards...

   sarge..jtProud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   jonsherryl | Mar 03, 2004 05:26am | #3

    >>"Liberal Needs Help with Hemlock"<<

   Now that did the trick. I'm always game to help a Liberal take some hemlock.

   ...But as for the tree variety of hemlock, it has very poor decay resistance. The heartwood of white pine Does have moderate decay resistance...so, if the choice is between only these two species, pine would be the better choice. Also, pine experiences lower volumetric shrinkage and mills better (less chipping and splintering) than does hemlock.

   As for historical accuracy, I think eastern white pine would again be the better choice. Hemlock was pretty much ignored by the loggers when the virgin forests in the Great Lakes region were first cut in the latter half of the 19th century (Victorian era). For example, here in Michigan, most of the pine was cut out between 1870 and 1900...then, in the 1930s and '40s they began to harvest the hemlock for use in cheap millwork: sash, screens and doors.

   In the late '50s I had the pleasure of replacing a few of these cheap screens and doors. It was easy money at a time when I needed it to cover college expenses, but the experience really soured me on hemlock. I wouldn't use it to patch an out house...even if you gave it to me. 

   Edited 3/2/2004 10:00:19 PM ET by Jon Arno

1. 
   notDusty | Mar 03, 2004 09:43am | #4

          Jon Arno ,

                " I wouldn't use it to patch an out house...even if you gave it to me"

          I could not agree with you more , about Hemlock. It dosen't even make good firewood. I recently obliged a customer and made him a mirror frame of Hemlock , so it would match the trim in his house. Big big mistake on my part . In my gut I knew it was wrong , but the guy was so nice. Never ever again. I hate to say it but I would use mdf or particle board or even cardboard instead next time . In a word " NASTY " best describes the Hemlock board .At least the one that I got .                        dusty

         BTW , that article on Cherry was very informative , thanks for all that you contribute to our craft .

2. 
   DaveHeinlein | Mar 03, 2004 03:07pm | #5

   Thanks Jon, for confirming my suspicions about Hemlock.

   Around here(Catskill Mts.,NY), 90% of the Hemlock was cut during the mid-19c for its bark, used for tanning leather. As a result, most of the old houses&barns here in the mountains were framed form Hemlock sawn from the carcasses left behind. It's a smelly, nasty wood, which after 200 years is as hard as a rock, but I had been told it withstood weather pretty good, so I figured I would check with you.

   I'll use EWP instead.

3. 
   joinerswork | Mar 03, 2004 05:01pm | #6

   Jon, and all,

   The local lore here in the Shenandoah Valley, among the Mennonite population, is that hemlock is the wood of choice for framing houses because of its fire resistant qualities.  Having spent a January weekend campout with the boyscouts trying to keep warm by burning some in a firering, I can testify to its not wanting to burn.  We could only burn the hemlock by adding other species to the fire, otherwise it would die down and smolder.

   Nearby in the Nat'l forest is a stand of virgin hemlocks.  Hiking thru it gives just the same feeling as being in a cathedral, maybe moreso, that God is nigh.  Haven't been there in several yrs, but I heard that the wooly adelgid were in them and their days are numbered.  Sad.

   Regards,

   Ray

1. 
   Manchild | Mar 03, 2004 05:09pm | #7

   Be careful with some of those myths perpetuated by some folks.

   The Mennonites probably used it because it was cheap. Period!

2. 
   joinerswork | Mar 04, 2004 06:41am | #12

   david,

   I'm not mennonite, but that's a good enough reason for me, too.  Actually I've found the old-order mennonite who runs a local lumber yard/planing mill to be a pretty reliable source of information.

4. 
   RANGERP75R | Mar 03, 2004 06:39pm | #8

   Jon

      On second thought, I suspect you might have been out casting a vote in the Michigan democratic primary. Yeah, that has to explain the absence.  :>)

      I'm going to work and will vision the reply I'm going to have when I read this thread to-nite. Maybe it would be safer to just un-plug my computer to avoid melt-down from a power surge.  he.. he...

   sarge..jtProud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   jonsherryl | Mar 04, 2004 01:00am | #9

   No Sarge, I missed messing up the Michigan Democratic primary. I spent most of last week in the hospital, filling out disclosure releases so my various doctors could talk to each other without violating my privacy...and definitely before the blood clot went from my lung to my brain...not that there's anything up there left to damage.

   You know, Sarge, it really makes me wonder if there's anything else my goverment can do to protect me now that they've got my retirement and privacy covered at twice what it should cost. (?)...If there is, I sure as hell hope they don't find it.

2. 
   robert1 | Mar 04, 2004 04:15am | #10

   Get well soon.

3. 
   RANGERP75R | Mar 04, 2004 05:27am | #11

   Jon

      Sorry to hear about the illness and hope you're doing fine. I am aware of hospital cost. Even the cost of aspirin is around $3. My younger wife (44 now) had a mysterious lung dis-order 5 years ago and was on a respirator for 52 days not expected to live. She was the beneficiary of a little "summer miracle" according to a Duke University Medical team and did anyway. The total cost of 52 days in Intensive Care and an additional 30 days in a private room:       $457,863 !!!

      We are fortunate she carried Kaiser-Permenente as she worked a MIS job with the State of Ga. Without it I would have to had declared bankruptcy and re-grouped. My out of pocket cost was $50. Most aren't so lucky.

      She started with the State at 19 yrs. old and was short about 3 months of full retirement. Her co-employee's donated the 3 months of leave from their time and she retired with the full package and we still get the health plan. As I stated most aren't so fortunate. Healthcare is a major concern in my mind after this incident.

      Take care of yourself Jon. If you need some "sunshine" to cheer you up, point your vehicle due south and look for the flashing neon sign that simply states, "Welcome to Sarge's Place".  :>)

   Regards...

   sarge..jtProud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

4. 
   joinerswork | Mar 04, 2004 06:42am | #13

   Jon,

   Best wishes for a speedy and full recovery.

   Regards,

   Ray

5. 
   Robbie | Mar 04, 2004 06:53pm | #14

   Jon:  As your doctors and you have undoubtedly discussed at nauseum, pulmonary embolism is nothing to screw around with.   Imagine you have the distinct "privilege" of taking warfarin, low molecular weight heparin or some other anti-clotting agent.   Now, don't you nick your nuckles with a hand plane!!  Look forward to hearing that nature cured your clot.

   With respect to hemlock, my great uncle who lived in the mountains of North central PA (Benton, PA) used hemlock as floor joist material for a one story addition he put onto his house.  Unfortunately, just 20 years later, we had to pull up the floor as it essentially caved in from rot.  The joints were 4X hemlock joists - more than plenty wide enough, but just rotted away.   Felt bad about it becuase there is hemlock everywhere in those parts for very cheap price.

6. 
   ian | Mar 06, 2004 11:02am | #22

   Jon

   now don't you go and die on us.  Just keep up the rat poison. 

   Stay well

   Ian Neuhaus

7. 
   jonsherryl | Mar 06, 2004 03:57pm | #24

   No sweat, Ian. This episode was a mere speed bump along the road to oblivion. I've got bigger problems than a teeny-weeny blood clot...But that's one of the reasons I hang around Knots all the time. Keeps your mind off the symptoms of advancing decrepitude. :O) 

5. 
   DennisS | Mar 05, 2004 07:14am | #15

   Jon -

   I certainly wouldn't pretend to argue with your expertise on anything remotely related to trees. But I do have to comment about your aversion to hemlock.

   Here in WA state we use hemlock along side doug fir and western larch almost interchangeably for stick frame home building and even some wood framed commercial buildings. Here in the little town of Sedro Woolley (WA) we can still get some old growth hemlock that's literally clear for well over eight feet in a 2x4 size timber. Or larger. Very nice close growth rings that only run out 2 or three rings in 4'. A lot is used for custom doors and frames. Granted I agree that I'd never use it directly exposed to the weather but for our well sheltered porch entry I got an extremely handsome full glazed entry door with operable side light that's holding up very well considering my own trepidations about using hemlock in this situation.

   I'm about to purchase a couple hundred bd ft to mill into T&G soffit material for the porch. I've been told by every long time lumber person here in the area (and this *is* logging country -grin-) that hemlock will perform well in this situation.

   I trust your judgement and follow all the advice I see you provide for others, Jon, I just hope in this case you're wrong (grin)

   At least if my house catches fire I'll have an area of safe refuge.....hehehehe

   ...........

   From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.

   Dennis

1. 
   jonsherryl | Mar 05, 2004 08:53am | #16

   Dennis, thanks for the vote of confidence.

   I love trees and the marvelous variety of woods they produce. Over the span of more than a half century I've studied both trees and wood...And I've yet to find a single tree or species of wood with absolutely no useful purpose. This includes hemlock.

   In fact, there is a small grove of old-growth hemlocks deep in the woods west of Hubbard Lake here in Michigan, that I have known since childhood. I won't share its precise location, not that I have any illusions about being the only one who knows the site...but the fact that it still stands leaves me comforted that those with whom I share this secret place must love it as much as I do. I think it is one of the most pleasant and peaceful places I have ever discovered.

   Now, as for the wood, I certainly would never condemn hemlock as absolutely worthless...but on the evidence of fifty years in woodworking and wood experimentation, I'm forced to conclude that when put in contest with virtually any other single species in virtually all finer (cabinetmaking) applications, it has never failed to come in second best.

   I appreciate its fire resistance, I can accept its plausibility as a cheap construction timber (if you are meticulous about keeping it dry, i.e., below 20%MC and don't mind if the drywall begins to buckle now and then)...but this species is NOT a cabinetwood. In fact, of the scores of species I've had hands-on experience with, hemlock comes in only about a half tick ahead of particleboard.   

     

   Edited 3/5/2004 12:57:07 AM ET by Jon Arno

2. 
   DennisS | Mar 05, 2004 06:58pm | #19

   Jon -

   I think Unc' really said what I was trying to say better than I did - that perhaps, and I'm only posing the question, perhaps our western variety of hemlock differs from what you have back east. And you seemed to have affirmed that as well. None the less, you also reaffirm my original suspicion that hemlock can be a potato chip in the making (warp, twist, bow and whatnot) which gives me pause in considering it for my porch soffit.

   The particular batch of material I have my eye on was logged close to 15 years ago and has been aging/drying in the owner's lumber shed out of the weather all this time. This is old grown hemlock out of Alaska the owner of which harvested when he owned a logging company up there. He took the wood and milled it himself since at that time there was no market for hemlock. These treese would often be felled to make room for harvesting the more marketable fir and cedar then left to rot on the barren forrest floor.

   The material I've seen in his shed is quite beautiful. But, it's in roughly 2x4 size of varying lengths up to 20' long. My plan was to purchase this material and mill it into 7/16 - 5/8" x 3+" T&G using the rough sawn texture from the band saw facing out to match the resawn (very very clear) cedar siding on the existing house. My thought was, perhaps incorrectly, that the smaller width of the milled pieces might 'behave' rather than turn into bananas or Frito chips on me.

   I priced 7/16 x 4 random length clear cedar for the soffit at $2000. That's right, two thouseand dollars for a little less than 200 sf of porch roof. That's the primary reason for exploring alternatives. At this point in my life I have more time than money so milling my own stuff isn't a big deal.

   Thanks for reading this far - as you might suspect, regardless of how much time I have, or money for that matter, I only want to do this once. So perhaps hemlock would be a poor choice indeed.

   ...........

   From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.

   Dennis

3. 
   jonsherryl | Mar 05, 2004 11:14pm | #20

   Dennis, I'd recommend that you buy one sample piece of this hemlock and mill it through all the steps you intend to use in the complete project. Take the slats out and lean them up against the sunny side of your house, hose them down and let them sit there for a few days (shouldn't take more than a week or so.)

   ...Then get back to us with a summary of your findings. My guess is we'll hear from you much sooner. Probably shortly after you turn the tablesaw on.

   Some lessons you just have to learn on your own.

4. 
   DennisS | Mar 06, 2004 07:55am | #21

   Good idea, Jon. Not only to test out the potential of milling the hemlock but to run through the process itself. Just bought a set of T&G bits for the router for the project - I've never tried this particular task before. Methinks I should go buy some plain ol' cedar boards, rip it down to size and saw out the knots and end up with some shorts that are reasonably clear.

   Thanks for your patience with this ol' die hard (grin)

   ...........

   From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.

   Dennis

5. 
   LeeEschen | Mar 06, 2004 11:36am | #23

   Jon,

   I hope you're feeling better now, my friend. I understand about hospital costs, too, having recently spent just 2 days & nights in our friendly, neighberhood ICU and then having a catheter run up my femoral artery into the coronary arteries.

   Fortunately, the results of this rather invasive test were as good as I could have hoped for: my arteries are quite clear, with only minimal, diffuse athersclerosis.

   The bill for this enforced vacation stay with activities is around $20,000. I am a veteran and I'm still waiting to hear what part of this the VA might cover. The above took place at a local hospital, since the nearest VA cardiac facility is Portland, about a 5 hour drive away.

   Get well soon!

   --

   Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon;

   Gateway to the Oregon Caves

6. 
   jonsherryl | Mar 06, 2004 05:43pm | #25

   Lee, I haven't seen the bill for my four day stay in the local meat locker. I'm sure it will be astronomical. Fortunately, I still have private health insurance as part of my retirement benefits. I've planned ahead as best I could.

   I don't want to get off on a political rant here, but it's frightening to think about where we are heading when it comes to medical care in this country; Increasing government involvement, red tape, and all of the lottery-like malpractice lawsuits. I feel sorry for the dedicated men and women (doctors, nurses and medical technicians) who are trying to hold this thing together. The baby-boomer generation right behind me is in for a real lesson on the virtues of Liberalism.

7. 
   robert1 | Mar 06, 2004 07:20pm | #26

   <<I feel sorry for the dedicated men and women (doctors, nurses and medical technicians) who are trying to hold this thing together.>>

   Thank you! If more people actually knew what went on after the doctor leaves the patient's room, I am certain that alot of problems could be solved. Sometimes the only thing I take home after a long day is abuse. I hope you are recovering.

8. 
   BG | Mar 07, 2004 01:56am | #27

   Jon,

   There you go generalizing again....thirty-two cents of every healthcare dollar goes into direct patient care.....only sixty-eight cents goes to overhead and paperwork.  It's the paperwork that makes us better....lol 

9. 
   UncleDunc | Mar 05, 2004 09:08am | #17

   I don't know anything about hemlock, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out that two widely separated populations, like in Washington and Michigan, could develop different characteristics. All varieties of dogs are a single species, that is, they are interfertile (although some crosses might require mechanical aid to accomplish mating), but look at the differences between the varieties.

10. 
    jonsherryl | Mar 05, 2004 09:41am | #18

    Dunc, you make a valid point. The western species is about 10% denser than the eastern species and it does have a much better T/R ratio, which is only slightly offset by its greater, overall volumetric shrinkage...So, while joints will tend to gap a little more with changes in humidity, its tendency to twist and buckle isn't quite as severe as it is for eastern hemlock.

    The problem is, they're both pure fungi fodder, as chippy and brittle as old glass and about as stringy as an overworked rope. I certainly don't take joy in bad mouthing any wood. In my woodworking, I've always placed special emphasis on discovering the merits of each species and learning to capitalize on the virtues of each when deciding what wood to use in any given application...but hemlock sure is hard to love.