Jon and anyone else who like to respond:
I’m about to build three exterior doors and I’m trying to decide on which species of wood to use. The doors will be painted so I’m looking for a reasonably priced wood but with at least some decay resistance. Jon, like you, I’m located in south-east Michigan and, despite our once abundant white pine forests, the current price for select white pine is out of sight. In fact, mahogany is slightly less expensive.
Despite the fact that it doesn’t machine all that well, fir might be another possibility. However, I haven’t been able to find any locally in 8/4″ stock. White oak would work but with the open pores it may not take paint all that well.
Now, I’ve never worked with cypress before but two local lumber yards (Armstrong’s in Highland and B&B in Whitmore Lake) have 8/4″ cypress at a fairly reasonable price. What do you think? I know that it’s pretty soft and light. Would it be too soft and light for exterior doors? Do you know of other species which might be suitable and available locally?
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If, by "cypress" you mean baldcypress, and if it's old growth stock...it would be an excellent choice for an exterior door. Immature baldcypress, or the sapwood of this species has very little decay resistance, but old growth heartwood is exceptionally durable. Also, this species is comparable to Douglas-fir in terms of density, so it's almost half again as heavy as eastern white pine...It should have plenty of strength for the purpose.
About the only negative I can think of is that baldcypress is a rather oily wood, so you'll have to be careful to select a finish (primer) that seals it well...The grain might telegraph through the first coat of paint, but after a light sanding between coats, you should be able to get a nice smooth surface.
By the way, the folks out at Armstrong are great to deal with. I'm sure you'll get a fair price and good service.
Jon,
Thank you very much for your reply. I'm not sure if the cypress at Armstong's is baldcypress or if it's old growth. The sample they gave me was very light weight....about the weight of cedar or redwood and much lighter than pine. In any case, I'll ask them. I've been dealing with Armstrong's for many years and I agree with you that they're very nice folks to do business with.
Richard, I agree that if price were no object mahogany would be my first choice....weather-resistant, stable, and a joy to work. But, the price of mahogany has gone up a lot here in Michigan since I did my kitchen in mahogany 10 years ago. I may still opt for mahogany for these exterior doors but would love to find a less expensive alternative. I also agree that, if painted, oil paint is the only way to go.
Are you and Jon talking about Armstrong Millworks in Highland, off from M-59? If you are, I started getting my lumber from them about 6 mos. ago. They are great people, and have quality lumber compared where I've been buying from( Johnson's in Charlotte).
John E. Nanasy
Chip, both white oak and mahogany (swietenia species) are good timbers for exterior projects, and if mahogany is reasonably priced I'd personally have no qualms making exterior doors out of it and painting them. I'd be more than happy painting white oak too, but mahogany is a more stable timber-- i.e., it expands and contracts less than oak. It is also easier to work, which might be a consideration.
My choice of paint would be oil based. Over the years I've painted both timbers many times for exterior applications. Add the protective qualities of paint to a timber well suited to exposed locations, and with a decent maintenance programme, doors made out of either species will outlast by many years similar doors made out of less weather tolerant woods. Slainte.
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The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh
You said nothing about the style of the door -- this is critically important. I hope you are not considering anything other than a panelled rail and stile door.
Exterior durability (decay resistance) is important but so is dimensional stability. The door will adsorb/desorb moisture and thus change size. If it is a 3-0 door this variation can be significant enough to cause problems with closure and locking.
The Wood Handbook has a section on Painting and Finishing. The following are woods considered easiest to keep well painted -- Cedar (Alaska, Incense, Port Orford, Western red and White), Cypress and Redwood. On a scale of I to V (easiest to most exacting), Eastern white, Sugar and Western white pines are rated as a II. Ponderosa pine (a common wood for millwork) is rated a III as are the True firs, Hemlock and Spruce. Douglas fir is rated IV along with Larch, and Southern yellow pine.
Hardwoods range between III and IV.
Two of these exterior doors will be four panel doors with mortise and tenon joinery. The upper two panels will have glass. They'll be heading to our summer home in Canada and this is the traditional style in this area along the east coast. The last door will be a five panel door without glass for my shop here in Michigan which is in serious need of a new door. Thanks for that information from the Wood Handbook regarding painting.
Since we're kicking around naturally durable woods, looking to buy one on the cheap...another candidate you might want to consider is meranti. This is a Southeast Asian member of the lauan group and, if you make sure you buy ONLY the dark red variety, it has reasonably good decay resistance. It tends to be just slightly more coarse textured than genuine mahogany and it's not quite as stable as genuine mahogany (that would include virtually all other commercial timbers, so meranti has acceptably good stability), but on the basis of price-value, it would certainly be worth consideration.
Another option would be Spanish cedar, but its high gum content presents some finishing problems. Ipe is the other high durability-low cost timber these days, but it is incredibly hard on blades in projects involving a lot of mill work.
The problem is, naturally durable timbers are in high demand worldwide and none of them are bargains, especially in clear grades.
Jon, I agree that old growth cypress would be a good choice, but that's going to be very expensive since the only old growth cypress available is either recycled or salvaged. Long ago these giants of the southeast fell to the woodsman's axe. In fact, the only one I know of that's standing is The Senator located in a national preserve and probably over a thousand years old. Godwin near Gainesville has salvage, but it's more expensive than a lot of hardwoods.
Jon,
Thank you for those additional sugestions. I'll inquire about meranti at Armstrong's. My impression is that, at the local lumber yard, a number of species are labeled as "lauan" or "Phil. mahogany" so finding a specific type (meranti) may be difficult. On the other hand, the folks at Armstrong's are very knowledgeable and may be able to answer the question.
I agree that Ipe may be too nasty for this project where a fair amount of millwork is involved. Also, I don't really need a wood with exceptional decay resistance. A wood with moderate decay resistance (like white pine or douglas fir) would work fine. I may pick up some of that cypress at Armstrong's and experiment with it. Tom Armstrong was telling me that woodworkers have been buying it to make lawn furniture. My only concern was that it seemed very light weight and perhaps not as hard and stiff as one would like for a door.
Spokeshave, yes, we're talking about Armstrong Millworks in Highland. I haven't been up to Johnson's in a number of years. I remember that the prices were pretty good at Johnson's but they would'nt allow you to pick through the piles. Also, Armstrong's is closer for me since I'm in Ann Arbor.
Hmmm... I'm getting a lumber delivery from L.L. Johnson's today. I did a google search for Highland Millworks and it doesn't appear that they have a website. Do you know if they have a catalog or price list? Do they deliver to SW Michigan?
I know, I know, I can call them directly, but I'm also interested in some independent comparisons between Johnsons and Highland. I've been mostly satisfied with the service and products from Johnsons (I've never been to any of their stores, just purchased over the phone and had the lumber delivered), and I have a local kiln operator who lets me pick through his stacks for the best boards, but he deals mostly in the basics: red oak, cherry, walnut, tulip poplar -- so I'm always on the hunt for new suppliers.
Again, not trying to bad mouth Johnsons -- I'll continue to recommend and buy from them -- but if there are advantages to Highland, I'd appreciate knowing what they are.
Thanks,
David "The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad
David, I think highly of both Armstrong's and L.L. Johnson, but they target different markets. Armstong's is positioned more for the retail trade, in that they let you select the stock board by board and they are set up to do all sorts of custom milling.
L.L. Johnson has a hobby-retail outlet that they call the Workbench, but their mainstream business is processing timbers from stump to planer and then wholesaling the lumber in larger quantities, typically in 1000BF lots. They were one of my main suppiers of specialty hardwoods when I was buying for the family lumberyard. Both their service and quality was consistently excellent and they could source unusual dimensions for me.
I wouldn't hesitate to recommend either of these suppliers. They're both a pleasure to deal with.
Jon and Chiptam, thank you both for your thoughts. I've been very happy with Johnson's, too (except for one order of oak that was poorly dried in the kiln), and they've always treated me, a small guy, with as much thoughtfulness and service as I can only imagine they offer the large guys. I was just wondering if Highland might offer a broader selection, etc., but it sounds like the difference isn't that big of a deal, especially since I don't show up onsite to handpick my boards. (I always telephone my order and have it delivered... very convenient and only $40.)
And Highland is certainly more of a trek, in any case, since I'm in SW Michigan.
Thanks again,
David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad
Chip, depending on exposure conditions, for a paint grade exterior door, poplar w/an mdf r.p. rated for exterior (medex) works very well. If the exposure is severe,i.e. rain, sun ,snow, and so on, I would highly recommend, a wood that is q/s such as vg doug. fir. If 8/4 fir is not available in your area, the stles and rails can be laminated from 4/4 and this works fine. I'd still use the mdf type r.p.'s. Laminated 2- 3/4" pieces to make a 1 1/2" thick rp works good.
As long as the exposure isn't too bad, the poplar/mdf door will perform well, however, given extreme exposure, any wood door will require maintenance, regardless of the type of wood it is made with.wb
WBWOOD 1,
Thank you for your reply. I'm afraid that the conditions these doors will face calls for a wood with at least moderate decay reisitance. They'll go on a house about 100 yards above the Atlantic Ocean and will be subject to a lot of wind-driven rain. Also, they won't be protected by a porch. It's customary there to have a solid cross-buck storm door for the winter but those are not closed much during the rest of the year. So, I doubt that poplar would be a good choice. Laminating stips of vg douglas fir might be an option if I can't find 8/4" stock.
David, Jon Arno's answer to your question regarding Armstong Millworks and L.L. Johnson is right on the mark. I know of a couple of local woodworkers who regularly buy from L.L. Johnson but they tend to buy a given species by the truck load.
If you can use African mahogany, phone Mccausey Lumber 32205 Little Mac in Roseville, MI 586-296-8770. This past summer they got stuck with a train load. About seven years ago Armstrong burned me on millwork, won't buy a stick from them.
Dave Koury
have you considered walnut? it has many of the charateristics you ask for and you stand a chance of picking it up at a bargain price from a local sawyer - -
David Koury,
Thanks for the information on that African mahogany. I'll give them a call to check on prices. By the way, what is African mahogany? Does it have some of the same properties as lauan?
David Doud,
Yes, walnut would work. In fact, I've got a fair amount in storage. However, because of the style of this house, the doors need to be painted and I think it would kill me to paint walnut doors "cottage red".
Chiptam,
Taking the risk that Jon and others more informed will prove me wrong -- and recognizing that mahogany, like "cedar," is an often overused term -- I think African mahogancy is more formally known as "khaya."
I have several hundred square feet of African mahogany/khaya veneer, with a "cigar roll" figure, and I love it.
Anyway, a Google search under khaya should give you some fairly accurate information.
David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad
You've got it right David. The species belonging to the African genus Khaya are true mahoganies, meaning this genus is in the mahogany family; Meliaceae. There are several species involved and none of them are quite as durable or as stable as genuine American mahogany; Swietenia macrophylla, but the African mahoganies are much nicer cabinet woods than any of the lauans.
If the price is right, African mahogany would be an excellent choice for this application.
it would kill me to paint walnut doors "cottage red".
I understand - one thing to consider is instead of paint, use a stain - particularly on a surface that recieves weather, it ages gracefully.
If I may inquire, what exposure (N-S-E-W) will the door have? it would mke a big difference in what you could use and how you might want to finish the door -
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