I know there is a difference between table saw and chop saw blades.I have read that fact in the different magazines.I think it is that table saw blades have a positive angle,miter saws a negative angle.Could someone clarify this for me?
If you look at the various mail-order catalogs or even at the blade manufacturers’ websites themselves there is some definite obfuscation going on here.They don’t like to distinguish between the two and I can guess why.It would be easier for them to sell a one-blade does all kind of thing,and not confuse the customer with the physics of rake angles and such.That wouldn’t yield the optimum set up though obviously.
Is the LU86 cut-off blade that Freud makes(and everyone likes) and specifies appropriate for both types of saws primarily a table saw blade?What would be the equivalent Dewalt blade?
I am looking for the best crosscut blade for my table saw without having to splurge for the Forrest.I don’t want a blade that is the best of both worlds kinda thing as I don’t own a chop saw and don’t want one.Thanks tons,you guys is de best.Roland.
Replies
Roly, with all that said, seems to me that what you want is a high ATB blade with 80 teeth and a 5 degree rake. Check out the Systimatics (60.00) or even the Timberlines (50.00). The Timberline is homeowner version of the Amana. When you move away from the more popular combo blades you start having to pay more. I have a Systimatic and it works just fine for me. IMHO, the best cut will come from the Forrest Duraline HI-A/T but if that is above your price range then check out my other suggestions. With the lower quality blades you will probably want to throw a set of dampners on it to help improve the cut.
Steve - in Northern California
Edit: Roly one thing I forgot to mention is that when you do finaly realize how great a good SCMS or CMS is, you will buy one. If you're as adament about those blades as you seem to be about this one, then you wouldn't consider swapping them anyway.
Edited 5/6/2002 4:21:21 PM ET by Steve Schefer
Edited 5/6/2002 4:26:25 PM ET by Steve Schefer
Roly,
IMHO you might wind up spending as much on dampners, stiffners, and sharpening costs as you would if you got a Forrest. Plus: how much extra time are you going to spend sanding out cut marks that cheaper blades leave? Also: I understand a Forrest blade can take more sharpenings than others.
Thanks guys.What blade is it that Forrest makes that give the best crosscuts?I want to make perfect mitered frames right off the saw.My Sears all steel blade with alot of teeth gives a glass smooth surface which I like alot.However the angle never comes off as accurate as my Dewalt carbide combo.The carbide yields a rough crosscut,however,I use this blade for the miters because it is very accurate at the very least.The thinner,all steel blade has a flex,though imperceptible when cutting, it is obvious when I clamp up the miters.thanks again.Roland.
"IMHO, the best cut will come from the Forrest Duraline HI-A/T 80 tooth"
Thats the one Roly.
Steve - in Northern California
I have a Forrest, and believe it to be totally overated, and I won't buy another. Don't even think about Dewalt blades.
The best value in blades is the industrial blades, often sold through saw sharpening services....no flashy advertising campaigns, just solid blades made for industrial use at lower prices than the 'retail/DIY' blades. My choice is FS Tools, but there are other good one out there.
in my region, an FS Tools is going to cost me about 2/3 the price of a Freud, and is one hell of a lot more blade.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Adrian, Interesting point. I just happen to have a bunch of those industrial blades hangin around. I've been meaning to take them in and have them sharpened. I also have a Forrest II thin kerf 40 tooth and I love it. I am not just trying to defend myself on my purchase, the blade is really that good to me. Depending on the material, sometimes it cuts so fast and smooth that the feed rate scares me. Steve - in Northern California
I agree with Steve, I've used his saw and that blade. Smooth as glass.
Just out of curiosity, could you list the blades you use most, and the best work done with each (e.g., mitering, ripping, yadda, yadda)?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Oh jeeze, you're gonna make me decide here arent ya... Well here goes.
Best all around blade: Forrest II Combo Thin Kerf 40 thooth
Best all around crosscut: Systi-Matic 80 tooth ATB 5 degree rake. Good in the Table and good on the RAS
Best all around RIP... Out of the box Jet blade.. It really doesnt matter but the carbide cuts nails better than the Oldham HSS. I never look for glue line cuts with a rip blade, I'm usually just happy that the cut even happens. In other words, most of the time I rip with the Forrest II. I know, I know, violates all the preaching I've done in the past but what the heck, I'm not so old that I cant learn a new trick or two. Steve - in Northern California
Thank you sir. Three more questions:
1. Do you use the blade stiffeners with the thin-kerf?
2. Have you tried the regular WW-II? (Hidden ??: Why the thin-kerf rather than the regular?)
3. Sounds like the SystiMatic is your best for miter cuts (like frames and such)?
Tricks and age: This day and age, I'd say we'd all better be able to learn new tricks! Sometimes I wish I was born 15 years later so I could'a been a techie, but on the other hand, am sure glad I wasn't born 20 years earlier! That would'a made it tough. 'Sides, would have missed out on the '60's!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi f_g,
1. No I don't use stiffiners but I've been thinking about trying it.
2. No, I haven't. I had a decent 1/8" kerf blade already and wanted to see what the difference was. Turns out you save 1/32" worth of wood and they say that it is better when ripping hard wood. I didn't see all that much difference.
3. The Systi-Matic is my preferred blade for miters now. I just bought that 12" Bosch CMS and as soon as I can figure out the best blade for it I'll probably use it instead. The Systi-Matic is also great on MDF, HDF, Melamine and Plywoods.
Note 1: My RIP blades are all 24 or 28 tooth blades. The 28 is actually classified as a combo blade but it is pretty rough on the crosscuts so I never use it for that.
Note 2: 'Sides, would have missed out on the '60's! - Do you actually remember them...LOL
Steve - in Northern California
Out of maybe 100 posts I've seen over the past 2-1/2 years regarding Forrest blades, yours is the 2nd that I've seen when someone wasn't happy. He called Forrest, sent the blade back to them, and they replaced it. I think it turned out to be a manufacturing defect. The blade he got back was perfect.
Given the excellent reputation of Forrest, if I got something from them that I wasn't happy with, I'd fer sure give them a chance to correct the problem.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
There wasn't anything wrong with my blade; it's a decent, overpriced, overhyped blade, and it does a good job. I just do not at all subscribe to the myth of the Forrest uber blade, but hats off to their marketing people. Talk to the sharpeners (I've talked to lots).....there is nothing special about the blades, and this business of 'only Forrest can sharpen them propoerly' is crap.
I think you see a lot of positive comments about them because , on these forums, most people are not pros. They buy what they see advertised in the magasines, they don't have a lot to compare to, and it's usually a big step up from what they are using (and Forrest is a big step up from some other brands). My point is, you can get blades that are equally good, or better, for less, without the hype.....buy the blades that are used in the pro shops, and personally I've never seen a Forrest used in an industrial situation. I know I have converted sharpeners to FS Tools (weren't available locally when I moved here, so they hadn't seen them)...they love those blades. The Forrests are just another blade. With great marketing, and demonstraters at the shows that spend hours before the shows setting the saws up.
cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Adrian, you are absolutely correct. It is marketing hype and the Forrest Blade can be sharpened by any good sharpening shop with knowledge of the blade specifications. Some say the Forrest will take more sharpenings than most standard blades but I would have to call that bunk since it all depends on how bad the blade has been abused.
Most of us non professionals never see a sharpening shop more than once a year and then its probably not necessary. We don't have ten projects going at once, (well maybe if you count the housework, yard and garden), so to some extent we are forced to believe the hype.
FS Tools sells blades that are in line price wise with the Systi-Matics and if you have to pay full list then they are priced in line with the Forrests. Are they better, well, that would depend mainly on how well they were sharpened wouldn't it. I have had good sharpenings and I've had blades ruined and it had nothing to do with the quality of the blades.Steve - in Northern California
Roly sorry, I didn't get this done last night. Anyway here ya go.
Systi-Matic #1240 10PT80-085/131-5/8Steve - in Northern California
I guess I'm some weird purist or have had too much academic/research readings with regard to wood machining processes to begin to fathom why anyone honestly needs to have all these saw teeth on the blade.
The best rip blade I ever had for my 10" table saw was a 24 carbide tooth jobbie. It had a flat top to the tooth (no alternating teeth or top bevels) and was side ground equally on both sides of the tooth. If I remember it had about a 25 degree hook.
I don't have a chop saw but before I got rid of my radial arms saw (for safety reasons), I used a 40 tooth ATB that provided a very satisfactory smooth surface. I think it had about a 20 degree hook and was carbide as well.
If you consider that bite is to feed speed as pitch is to blade speed, you begin to realize that with the slow feed speeds of hand cuts with an 80 or 90 tooth blade rotating at 3650 rpm, the amount of bite is so minimal that it is almost nothing. (Pitch is the distance between each tooth; blade speed in circular saws equates to rim speed.) I guess that means the manufacturer can justify such small hook angles which would require huge cutting forces if there were any bite to the cut.
The thing I don't understand is that there is always loading due to the frictional forces of the blade moving through the wood and the greater the number of teeth, the greater are these forces. In my mind, the base level of these frictional forces, on a per tooth basis, are much much greater than most loading due to actual cutting. The idealized numbers I have heard from sawfilers in mills is that bite should be somewhere about 50 - 60% of tooth width if there is sufficient gullet capacity (primarily dependent on the thickness of the cut/material). I know for a fact that tool wear is definitely a function of tool rubbing and the heat therein generated. More teeth equates to me to more rubbing and faster dulling and therein more sharpening.
IN the sawmills I have been through (about 25-30), bite, feed speed, pitch and blade speed are calculated and pretty well adhered to. To a much lesser extent in secondary manufacturing operations these guidelines are somewhat considered. There seems to be greater focus on knife marks per inch (as an indicator of surface quality). But by the time you get into most small professional and hobbiest shops neither of these approaches is considered. I seem to perceive that more is better. The more teeth, the greater the cost to purchase and sharpend the blade. I don't have money like that to burn.
There is another issue as well! If the chip/saw dust is too fine, it spills from the gullet and if it rubs against the body of the blade, it creates more friction and may actually deflect the blade.
Even with my 24 tooth rip blade on my table saw, I know I was no where near overloading it -- certainly not with hand feeding and were I to have had one of most small shop power feeds, not even at the highest possible feed speed would I worry about over feeding the blade. Precission in overall saw tooth profile grinding, to me, is more important than the number of teeth.
No disagreement with the technical side of the issue. However, we oft forget about the unpredictable human factors. I believe that what the manufacturers that sell these high end blades are attempting to do is produce something that fits all. As Adrian states, a pro learns through repetition, (a lot of it). Hobbyists like myself have to rely on the manufacturers to fill in the gaps of knowledge and skill.
Could I hand cut a perfect crosscut without using a miter fence or a sled.. No, but I know of a pro that can. Do I know the perfect feed speed for hard maple, no. Do I have a 5hp cabinet saw, no. So you see, while all the math works, sometimes the other side of the equation is a little off balance.
Steve - in Northern California
Edited 5/7/2002 2:33:08 PM ET by Steve Schefer
Hi everyone and thanks for the superb input.
Adrian,What model blade of the FS tools would you recommend as an excellent 10" table saw crosscut blade?I found a place on the web that sell them:Bullsharp.com or something.
Steve,what model Systematic blade is that?
Thanks everyone again.Roland.
Roly, Its hangin on the wall in the shop.. Bummer, I'm 40 miles away at work.. I'll get it for you tonight.Steve - in Northern California
Depends what you are cutting most often...I've misplaced my current catalogue this minute, but my older one has an L04 (standard, Alternate Tooth Bevel), they have a L23 Triple chip for abrasive materials, and L06 A.T.B for very fine crosscuts, and a better triple chip called an L10, several others....they also have a premium XL4000 line that has longer life. I have a bunch of them from both lines, between the school shop and my own shop. The L06 is a good one, but I would recommend you think about what you are cutting, and talk to the dealer. Fred Bull at Bullsharpening knows a lot about tooling, and he used to participate in forums too...I'm sure he or others in the biz could give you a specific recommendation.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Thanks tons guys for the help.Roland.
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