Replies

1. 
   davamoore_ | Dec 07, 2001 05:30pm | #1

   *
   hambone --

   I see that you haven't gotten a huge response to your posting, so thought I would chime in -- as a non-professional, amateur woodworker who checks into this forum regularly because of the great advice and wealth of information that exists here.

   I am only guesstimating, but your question is similar to one that has been asked before. For example, try scrolling down the page of topics in the Business section and you should see:

   "need advice for first time pro shop" started by Joshua Jones

   -- and --

   "Earning range of one man shops?" started by Charles Cabral

   Just to mention those I saw right away, and I don't claim that either thread provides comprehensive answers.

   You might also want to do a search through the archives first, read what information is available there, and then come back with some specific questions. I have found, especially from the pro woodworkers, that they are almost always extremely willing to answer questions, but that time constraints make them much more disposed to share information on specifics, rather than general topics -- especially since the general topics have usually been covered repeatedly and are available in the Knots archives -- not to mention a number of books, online sources, etc.

   None of this is meant to sound snotty, so please don't take it that way. I'm just thinking that you might be able to draw more information out of busy people by doing some research first (and maybe you already did) and then getting into some of the nitty-gritties that you haven't found answers for.

   David

1. 
   Scott_Frankland | Dec 07, 2001 09:53pm | #2

   *Another thing to try is a WalMart approach. I know I will get some flame back on this one but when I went to start up my own business this is the kind of stuff the banks wanted to know before they would even look at me. So here it is. First you can try calling a couple of the local wood working shops in your area and see how busy they are. Second ask them what they charge for certain items that you would be building. With just those two questions answered you may decide to take a step forward with your plans or side step and head off on a new career path.Scott

1. 
   hotsawdust* | Dec 08, 2001 12:40am | #3

   *Building your reputation is the only way: it sounds like you are doing that already with your work on the side. Because of the time factor involved in making cabinets and furniture, this is a slower climb than in other businesses. In the time that you serve 5 clients who can talk your quality around town, the new pizza parlor next door will have served 500 clients. Thats why its better if you can open up with something of a reputation already in hand, either from earlier part time work or from work you did for someone else.

1. 
   chris_gleason | Dec 08, 2001 05:37pm | #4

   *Hi-I had a discussion with someone in your situation yesterday. Five years ago I took the plunge and started a full-time woodworking business, and I am now very happy with the status of the operation (great jobs, great clients, healthy number of hours worked, nice bottom line, etc.), but that is only after really having to bust my butt like crazy and making a lot of mistakes along the way. In retrospect, if I had known how hard it would be, I'm not sure I would've done it. Now that I've gotten to this level, I plan to stay with it another 15 years, but the first few years were incredibly tough.I am all for the entreprenurial spirit, but I am now a lot more conservative in my attitude towards it: by starting a business, the risks are not insignificant (financial, health, relationship stresses, and more). My advice is to not take the venture lightly and do more research than you might think you need to about the business side of the beast.In my experience, I know many people who are very very talented at the woodworking aspect (better craftsmen than me, for sure) who have started businesses only to watch them fall down the tubes after a couple of years because they didn't have the fire in their belly (ok, a silly expression, but accurate) to do the marketing, book-keeping, etc. I would say that even though I do some pretty challenging woodworking (I also do lots of simple, repetitive stuff), the woodworking itself is the easiest part of what I do. I also spend only 60% of my work time in the shop, so that leaves 40% (a lot of time) doing business-related stuff that is critical to the operation.So, I don't mean to be negative about the idea-- I just think that it is important to add a cautious voice to the conversation, since you will doubtlessly encounter lots of people who will say, "Oh, running your own business, that's so cool! You should definitely do it!" It can be cool, and MAYBE you should do it. But it is a big undertaking that deserves some careful thought and preparation.Best wishes,Chris Gleason

1. 
   Ron_Teti | Dec 09, 2001 06:54pm | #5

   *hb,Im getting to where you are right now. I am not a pro as of yet but in the next 6-7 years i will be retired from my FT job and am considering starting a "hobby business". These are my thoughts right wrong or indiferent. I am thinking about a niche sort of operation. I have a good freind who for the last several years has made a very good profit on making custom waste paper baskets out of exotic hardwoods. due to some medical problems he is unable to continue with them. Now marketing ,Contact the stores he used to sell them to (with his permission and endorcement of course) check out craft faires ect. Splintergroupie had a excellent thread recently on that subject check the archives. Custom furniture and Cabinets are not in my immediate plans unless by special order. Kim Graves and Scott Braun and Greg Brown, Dano Jennings can help you with that . I dont want to get into that phase due to competition and marketing plus overhead. Maybe they will post some info on the subject if not I believe they have websites in which you could contact them. Good luck, hope this helps.

2. 
   Len_Rutherford | Dec 10, 2001 07:03pm | #6

   *After working for over twenty years in one of the most stress related jobs out there (Union Organizer), and the 90 hour weeks, I decided to open a woodworking shop. It had always been my hobby, and decided that I could do it without frustration and make some beer money at the same time. Boy was I wrong. "Friends" and family members all wanted a custom piece of furniture, and, of course, thanked me for my work, but always forgot to pay for the material and/or labor. After several of these, I learned the most important lesson yet. Don't do work for anybody without an up-front estimate, and don't give it away. I made alot of people mad, but it put me on the right path.Now, I stay fairly busy, and have a reputation of being meticulous and put out quality products. Word of mouth is the best advertising. Competitive pricing is great, but if you have the reputation, people care less about the price if the quality is there.Quality tools and the knowledge to use them is paramount to good products. Start small and work your way to bigger and better machinery. You'll be surprised at what you can do with a good table saw, router, and a few sanders.Good luck, Len (Len's Custom Woodworking)

3. 
   davamoore_ | Dec 10, 2001 08:22pm | #7

   *hambone --I'm glad to see that you're getting some responses, and since I didn't actually offer any practical advice in my first post, let me at least second -- and expand on -- something chris gleason mentioned: 60% of your time will likely be spent woodworking, 40% marketing.I'm not a professional woodworker, but I am a self-employed freelance writer. Prior to that I was a self-employed, freelance project manager (mostly IT implementation projects). Both times I took the plunge because I had lined up some projects and word of mouth made it seem as if future projects were coming. The early projects did come through, but after a while they were completed and in the meantime I hadn't spent enough time marketing my work -- I was too afraid that I'd get overwhelmed. (HA! The bliss of overconfidence!)In any case, I quickly learned (then forgot and had to re-learn) an important lesson: you can't sit back and count on work to come on its own, at least during the early years of any new career or business. You have to get out of your shop or office and get your name out in the public eye, no matter how difficult or challenging it might seem. People need to know who you are and what you can do, and word-of-mouth alone won't cut it at the beginning. Over time, however, you may have built up enough of a reputation and client list that you'll have to turn down, or postpone, jobs... but that only comes after the initial period of hard work and demonstrable, quality products.Who knows, my future might also hold a career working with wood. If and when it does, I hope I'll be smart enough -- this time -- to translate the lessons learned in one arena into those of the new.One final note: Again, FWIW, if you haven't taken a look through the Knots archives, do. There's a lot of great information in there.David

4. 
   Hambone_ | Dec 10, 2001 08:42pm | #8

   *Thanks to all of you that have taken the time to respond to such a vague question. There was a lot of good advice in there. I appreciate yall taking your time to respond. So much of the advice was bitterly acaccurate.Foe example...I am, as we speak, in the middle of a project for a friend, working with out a proposed estimate, and I'm scared to death of what he'll think when he gets the bill. I had resolved last night to never do another prprojectithout an upup frontstimate. Now I have a big (to me) kitchen project lined up and I'm ready to change the business cards...then I read the post regarding counting on the elusive future income. A lesson I should have learned from my prior business experience. Maybe I'll hold off on the business cards for now. Thanks again, Kelley Hamby

5. 
   davamoore_ | Dec 10, 2001 09:55pm | #9

   *hambone (or should I call you Kelley?) --Yeah, loads of horror stories out there, and plenty of nervous nights spent wishing you could sleep. But as someone who's been (almost) steadily self-employed for the past decade, in one "line" or the other, I for one have absolutely no desire to re-join the corporate world as anything other than a freelancer paid to help "them" out.From the soapbox: There's no such thing as a "safe" future. Take a look at the folks from Enron. For an even more drastic example -- and I feel weird making this reference at all -- think about the events of September 11th.My opinion is, determine what it is YOU want to do. Try and factor in the risks of doing that thing, risks to you and the people you love. Try to prepare for those risks. Do your best to understand your hoped-for market, your customers, your business, your product, your goals. Don't get stuck in "analysis paralysis." Go for broke. Relish your victories, learn from your failures (and those of others). Try and do even better the next time. Take a nap when you need it. Give yourself a break once in a while. Get a "real job" when you have to, or when you want to.Off the soapbox: Will it be tuna or ham for lunch?David

6. 
   Virginia_Hoeffding | Dec 11, 2001 03:06am | #10

   *Hambone,I started my own restoration business (mostly hand repair work and finish preservation, no stripping/refinishing, a little custom building) a year or so ago, after doing the same work for someone else for several years. (Decided I would rather mismanage my own biz than watch someone else mismanage his...) First, it IS scary as hell starting out, even when you know that everybody around who does this work has more than they can handle. Second, the folks who've written in about the amount of time you should expect to spend on the business end as opposed to the woodworking end are absolutely correct. Take the time before you even think about hanging out a shingle to learn about the legal, regulatory, and accounting/bookkeeping end of things (it's amazing how useful the internet is for researching small-business stuff -- take a look at http://www.nolo.com and http://inc.com, for starters).As far as pricing, you have to do it on the basis of what your costs are, including things like taxes, retirement accounts, liability and health insurance, and time you spend running the business, as well as tools, wood, and all the fun stuff. Then decide how much "take home pay" you need per year, add that on top, and divide by the number of hours you want to work. Then look with dismay at the figure you've come up with, and start thinking about how to cut costs. For a lot of small businesses the "rule of three" is a way of coming at it from the other direction: decide how many _billable_ hours you want to work, how much you need to take home per hour to earn a decent living, multiply that by three, and that's your hourly rate. In other words, your costs will probably be about double your net income. Or you can do what I do, and peg your hourly rate to what your auto mechanic charges. This actually works pretty well... :) Do you keep detailed records of how much time you spend on what you're building now? There's a world of difference between estimating on the basis of "Well, I think I can run that up in 20 hours or so," and "Let's see -- the last time I built something similar, I spent 5 hours on design, 2 hours milling stock, 20 hours on joinery and glue-up, 7 hours on surface prep and finishing, and 2 hours holding the customer's hand."I've been amazed at how much time I spend out of the shop, doing marketing, recordkeeping, and dealing with the stupid greedy people of this world. BUT -- I now have at least as much work coming in as I can handle, I'm in the middle of moving to a larger work space, and I find to my horror that I actually sort of enjoy the accounting and management part of it. So it can be done.Good luck,-- V.

7. 
   Ian_Barley | Dec 13, 2001 03:16am | #11

   *HamboneI am sitting and looking at exactly the same position.I started making my chairs about 3 years ago, made some for friends and familiy, then for friends of friends and now I find I am being approached by strangers. I have spent three years building reputation and skills while holding down another full time job.I have spent 25 years working for a salary and have got to a position where that salary is more than I need to live on but the job is less than I need to live with!I think I am lucky in that I have run business units for others and have done all the accounting stuff before and have a pretty good knowledge of legal matters. I am learning like mad about marketing and selling but have always got by in those areas too.The real secret is to not imagine that you will be successful 'cos you are the best woodworker. You have to be able to do the business stuff too.I am banking on spending at least 40% of my time in sales and administration. If I'm lucky and the hard work pays off my business forecast for years 1 & 2 might make me a third of what I make now. If I'm not lucky and the hard work doesn't pay off I'll do something else.Whatever happens come January 2002 Ian Barley will be working for himself and nobody else. I'm scared as hell. I have received nothing but support from my fantastic wife and what I'm really scared of is letting her down, not anything that happens to me.If you have enough fire in your belly - do it. Just make sure you're as prepared as you can be.

8. 
   davamoore_ | Dec 13, 2001 03:23am | #12

   *Ian -- Good Luck! Break a leg!David