Do you really need a radial arm saw? Can a sliding compound miter do the job? The new shops tight on space
Lou
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Replies
As usual, the answer is "it depends". I think it fair to say that the radial arm saw can do all that the sliding compound can do, but it can do things that the slider won't. One example is using a dado blade. The ability to cross cut dados is one of the more useful aspects of radial arm saws. (Actually, all dados are crosscut, with the grain it is a groove.)
Radial arm saws are more expensive however. The minimum you should spend on a new model would be about $1,500. With a new price of less than that you are buying a toy, without the beef or precision to hold alignment for very long.
Steve, I have a 12 delta allready. Dadoing was the only thing I could think of. I just don't know. I would sell it off if I knew I could part with it. But you know the woodworker mentality!!!
Lou
If you already have the ras, and the delt12 is a good one. Don't sell it for a CMS. The only advantage the CMS would have, is if you need the portability of taking it to a job site. But if it's an either or situation, for a shop with lack of space. Save your money and stay with what you got.
I generally keep my RAS carefully adjusted to cut square. (Not that big a deal, really. I just check it with a square every time I change the angle and then go back to 90 -- and that's not too often.) I use it for virtually all crosscutting. I personally think it's easier, more accurate and safer than crosscutting on the TS -- especially for long boards. I have a CMS, but I like to keep that portable for construction-oriented uses. I also use the RAS for dadoes and cutting shoulders on tennons that have had the cheeks cut on the TS with double blades. That way, blade changes and setup are minimized.
Any crosscut that does not go all the way through the stock, such as dadoes and tennon shoulders, are ideal fodder for the RAS. I wouldn't give mine up, even tho' my shop size is limited and it takes up a lot of space. Worth it, for me. YMMV.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I had a RAS in the old shop but I do not in the new one (did not re-buy it and really do not have a space for it even if I did) But thier are times I really miss it. If I had a nice one I do not think I would give it up (some how I would find space for it)
Doug
Mike,
Couldn't agree with you more.
I use jigs for angle cuts and keep it at 90° all the time. Primarily use it the same ways as you do, i.e. dados, tenons, etc. I like being able to see what I'm doing, especially when dadoing.
I was going to replace it with a SCMS and thought why should I spend more money for less capability/capacity?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi Bob,
Just curious. What brand and size radial arm saw do you use? I've never had any luck with them.
Paul
Look at the big old monsters. Dewalt GE or GA from the '40s to the '60s. Also "The Origional Saw Co.", they bought all the old Dewalt tooling and patents and make them better than the origionals.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Paul,
You're probably gonna flip me the bird for this, but it's a Craftsman! Bought it in '74 (no, not 1874!). :-)
I've learned a thing or three about this saw in the 33+ years I've had it:
The base is crap - it is simply not solid and flexxes in use. Solution: Replaced with a homegrown stand I made myself; much better. End of problem.
The table moves all over the place - no wonder it isn't accurate. Solution: Replaced with, again a homegrown table - screwed to the homegrown base. End of problem.
Almost every time I changed to a 45° cut from 90°, it wasn't accurate enough. Solution: Made several jigs/templates to angle the workpiece and keep the saw @ 90°. Yes, cutting long boards are an issue with this method. To that end I cut them with a Speedsquare and trim on the shooting board. I very seldom have this problem as I don't typically work with long boards with mitres anyway.
The adjusting screws were always loosening. Solution: Lok Tite.
The above Solutions have solved 95% of any previous issues. Granted, some of them compromise the original intent, but that's OK with me. I still have a saw that I can safely crosscut a 22" wide board if I have to. Also, I think the older saws were much better made.
By the way, when was the last time you had to cut a board that wide, never mind even finding one!?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/8/2007 9:04 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
CRAFTSMAN? WHAT WERE YOU THINKING? :) Well Bob, I'm glad you were able to " hot rod " yours and get it to perform. I was basically using mine for 90 degree cuts also. My issues were always a small amount of flex somewhere between the carriage rollers and the blade that translated into a poor quality cut. Tweaked until I was blue in the face. I could never get rid of it. After buying the Delta unit I thought my frustration would be over. Not. Similar problem. Anyway the rest is history.
Paul, radial armless
Paul,
I had a similar problem with mine, i.e. wobbly cuts, but no sag though. Anyway, I kept fiddling with the damn thing and couldn't eliminate it. Was driving me nuts until one day I had taken off the sawhead to clean out the roller mechanism.
I looked at the arm and it had a good amount of dust/oil gunk on it so decided to clean it up while I'm at it. Found that there were several knubs on the roller rails that I carefully sanded off, then applied a light coat of white grease to each one.
Another tricky part is adjusting the roller mechanism to the rails. I've found the best way is to tighten them to the point that it is difficult to move the sawhead, then back off each one of the 4, THE SAME AMOUNT. VERY IMPORTANT! The rollers can effect the alignment of the blade.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Ialso have an ole Craftsman RAS. I also bought mine in '74 but it was old then - at least 10-15 years old. I paid $25 for it. For many years it was my only stationary tool. Looking back on some of the things I did, it's amazing that I still have 10 fingers! Remember when the RAS was promoted as a "do everything" tool? I still use it regularly but like you, I replaced the stand and use the saw exclusively for crosscuts on long boards (I use my PM2000 for everything else). If I have to change it to cut something other than 90 degrees, I always check it when I reset it back and it stays square. I have a full shop full of tools crammed in a very small space, but I'm keeping the RAS. Still does the job.
John
Bob,
Can't find a 22" board? My local wood supplier (who uses a chainsaw with severl bars, the longest being 72") dropped about 30 boards of Norway maple, each 5' long and 28-38" wide in my driveway just because I showed interest. He tells me he's got a 28" diameter cherry lined up next.Chris @ flairwoodworks
Chris,
That's just not right. Here you go getting my little jealousy reared up. If those wide boards are causing you grief, just send them onover and I'll gladly relieve you of the stress they are causing.
I mean, that's the least a fellow woodworker can do. I've dealt with stress in the past and I know how bad you must feel!
Are you the new George Nakashima of domestic wood!?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I'm up in the wilderness-y area known as Vancouver BC. I'd be happy to pass on my sawyer's contact info if you like! That goes for anyone reading this as well.
By the way, I'd never heard of George. I did a search on him and found his site (http://www.nakashimawoodworker.com/). There's some pretty cool pieces on there (http://www.nakashimawoodworker.com/freeformtable.htm).
Once I get this massive dogwood table I'm building (for my sawyer, Dave), I'll post some pics. Don't hold your breath, however - I'm just starting!
Chris @ flairwoodworks
Edited 11/10/2007 2:23 am by flairwoodworks
A Tree is the most intimate contact with nature.. WRONG!A woman is!
I'd sure like to upgrade my Sears to a newer model like your. My neighbor had one, I think about 1958 or 1959 that took my fancy. It was sort of brown color and the first one I noticed that Sears sold. So in 1962 when I was building a new house I bought the then current model. I had noticed the base was wobbly on my friends so I put a sheet of sheet metal on the back of mine and that seemed to hold it rigid. The castors probably would have been fine on a tea cart but immediately smashed under the weight of the RA. I installed some castors from shopping carts.
It is getting so the motor is making a lot of noise. Maybe I'll take it to a motor doctor. It has done a lot of work for me. Each time I take on a project I tune it up. Since I got the PM66, I don't rip with it anymore. I still have a RA thumb from thirty some years ago.
My CMS sits unused in the shop, but it is very importaint on the job site. I like that the RAS has better dust collection and runs a lot quieter. My RAS is also more accurate, less finiky and much more powerful.
If you are not running a comercial shop, don't use the RAS for dados, and still use the miter saw for most of your cutting, then ditch the RAS.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
I decided several years ago that the RAS took up more space than it was worth. Several attempts to sell the saw went nowhere so, unwilling to give it away for peanuts, it sat for quite a while just taking up space. I recently gave it a good tune up, hooked it up to the DC (this was a major plus), and find myself using it quite a bit for 90* crosscut and dado.
You will have to decide, like I did, how much the space that the saw takes up is worth.
Hi Lou,
I've owned 3 different radial arm saws over the last 20 or so years. Two Craftsman units and the last one a Delta 12" ( $ 1,500.00 ). I was never really happy with any of them. The Delta was a little better than the others but not by much. They were all very inaccurate. Even in the Delta there was way too much inherit flex in the design to give a truly accurate cut. I ended up using them for general stock sizing. Now I don't own any and haven't missed them at all.
About 5 years ago I started using sliding compound miter saws. What a difference. Extremely accurate. Precise cuts with no gaps from carriage flex. No, you can't use a dado head but I never used one that way, anyhow.
I know some people use radial arm saws with good success. I never did with the brands listed above. So, for me anyway, the alternative is more precise.
Paul
I used to have a radial arm saw. Even built an entire second floor with two bedrooms and a bathroom, with closets in the hallway. Did this after removing the old roof. The RAS was the only power saw I had - so got very inovative with it. Even sawed all of the 4X8 panneling as well as all of the structural material with it. Later on made decorative cabinets and bedroom furniture with it. If this poll would have been 10 years earlier, I would have said my Radial Arm Saw.
But, about 10 years ago, I sold my RAS and bought a Shopsmith. I am now making better furniture. My SS is my major power tool, used constantly. My other stand alone power tools are a hand-held circle saw, a thickness planer and a scroll saw - I must say my Shopsmith is my most valuable. It not only features the 5 basic abilities of sawing, turning, vertical drill press, horizontal drill press and disk sander - but I also have assessories of: a overhead pin router that can also be used as an overhead or horizontal router (a joint maker) - a belt sander - a jointer - and a band saw. Yes, I must say the Shopsmith is my most valuable tool.
Chuck Wright - Lancaster, CA
I have a RAS set to cut square as some one else mentioned. It's handy when cross cutting big boards down. IT mostly acts as a second work table though. Comes in handy, but does take some realestate.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Hello Lou,
I went through your current travels, about 5 years ago. If I had the insight then that I do now, I would have a Delta 10" Radial and a Makita 10" Sliding Miter Saw.
Here's what I learned. Start with the bottom article first, then read the "Follow Up". Maybe it will help.
http://www.toolseeker.com/WdWkMac/RASaw/33-890.asp?var1=33-890
Bill
Edited 11/8/2007 9:58 am ET by BilljustBill
Edited 11/8/2007 10:00 am ET by BilljustBill
I for one LOVED my old Craftsman radial arm saw.. It still works but my 'X' son-in-law has it and he uses it all the time for cutting steel for his welding projects.
I do not remember exactly when I got it.. 1970?..
If I had the room, I would get another in a second..
I tried the molding heads and all sorts of stuff on it but frankly I found it way to dangerous with those attachments!
The new sliding compound miter saws are pretty 'slick'!
BUT you mentioned.. The new shops tight on space
A miter or radial arm needs (ok, ideal) a long bench to use it properly. That takes room.
How about a upgrade to your TS?
Just me.
Hi Lou,
I had a great Craftsman many years ago. I couldn't afford anything and a neighbor gave it to me. Wish I still had it. It was a great saw for me but it all depends on quality, space, other tools you have or want. I did lots of great work and learned a lot using that saw.
The usual crosscutting and miters and also the dadoing. I even used it for ripping several times. As I said, it was a great one and when I set it up and maintained the settings it would do anything I wished to try.
I had to let it go due to a move. Dang!
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
I have two old RAS, a DeWalt and a small Italian job. They are both set to 90 degrees and are very accurate. The small one is set to cut shoulders without the use of a fence in a search for a better perfect way (sounds like Confucius).
The big one cost about your $140, it did not work but just needed TLC. Every setting is rock solid so the carriages only move.
Now Lou,
I'll say one thing, you are a determined lot! I have taken the liberty of convincing the SawGod(ess) to bless your RAS so it will last until eternity. If you don't keep it and set up properly, AND USE IT, he/she will descend upon your new luxurious shop and wreak havoc upon all your other machines, with special emphasis on the RAS replacement machine.
If and when you come up with a way of dadoing with the SCMS, please post the process for us. As for crosscutting wide boards with the SCMS please post that process as well.
Also, I still haven't figured out how a SCMS takes any less space to operate than a RAS? Anyway, it seems that you never have enuf bench space so I just made a whopper (for my woodshop anyway) and put the RAS on the right hand end of it for use as support for long boards. When the RAS is not in use, I swing it to one side out of the way, voila a big bench.
Now as to heating that plane hangar shop of yorn, how about a trailer furnace? They're cheap and work great, at least mine does for me. You can vent them nearly anyway you want/need and they're fuel efficient too. No lugging firewood/pellets and fuel storage is as easy as a 55 gal. drum plumbed into the furnace.
Hey, how about some pics o' that fancy shop so we can all drool a bit?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres, partially and seriously funnin w ya
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/9/2007 8:18 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Well the RAS takes up more space because it cuts wider boards thus it is deeper.
Doug.
Well the RAS takes up more space because it cuts wider boards thus it is deeper. I'm not sure why but I just had a good belly laugh on that one!
Good that was at least part of the point.
Doug
Hi Lou ,
The answer really depends on what type of work you do and what other equipment you have .
The sliding compound saw is a wonderful tool , mine typically gets used only on the job or in the shop for mitering boards that won't fit under my regular chop saw , like anything wider than say 4" , not often .
If you use sheet goods and say need to cross cut a say 15" wide piece you certainly can do it on the TS .
If you have a fence set up with stops for repetitive cuts of narrow boards like face frame stock the slider will work great .
For me the most difficult cut is say cutting 1 inch to 6" of the end of a half or large piece of plywood , wider than 16" , anything under that width gets cut on my RAS a 12" Rockwell machine . I use a 10" blade because I own so many of them . Unlike what colebear / Paul said about his mine has never gone out of square and it gets used in a real cabinet shop . I am the only one who uses it so perhaps that has something to do with it staying square .
Several times I took the head of and cleaned the rods it slides on and even rotated them once to reveal unused surfaces , that really smoothed the sliding action nicely .
I use the RAS to cross cut all my face frame and door parts , if I need to limit the tear out on certain parts I simply place a sacrificial piece of scrap 1/4" ply on the table .
dusty
My first stationary power tool was a DeWalt 10 inch RAS, purchased new in 1963. Still have it, use it almost every day, and it still works like a charm. Had to replace the switch a few years back. It's built into benches on each side, with a sliding stop that can be used in the track on either side. Really shines when I've got a lot of multiples to cut, like drawer or door parts. I've got a Unisaw that's used primarily for rip cutting, the DeWalt does almost all the crosscuts. Wouldn't think of giving it up. BTW, it's still got the original table surface.
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