Hello all.
I’ve searched fairly hard and couldn’t come up with answers to this topic on Knots. If this has been covered ad infinitum, please direct me there.
I’ve inherited a small shop and I’m reconfiguring the tool placement and shop layout. The radial arm saw takes up an inordinate amount of space. It took me hours to adjust it, and I still don’t trust its accuracy. I rarely use the thing.
Some cursory measurements tell me I could gain space by selling the RAS and buying a sliding compound miter saw.
So, the question is, what can the RAS do that the SCMS can’t?
Thank you.
–Jon
Replies
Jon ,
Depending on the model and size of your RAS usually the crosscut capacity is much greater on a RAS then a scms .
The RAS can be set up with a dado blade and there are other operations some more risky then others like ripping and plow / cove cuts to name a few .
There was also a scary thing called a safety planer that actually was a surface planer attachment as well as molding cutters .
Some applications the RAS or chop saw just won't make the cut the scms will , I use the RAS on every job but the slider only on some jobs .
hope that answers your question
dusty
Dusty,
That's a huge help.
It would have taken quite awhile to find out on my own about those functions I'd be losing. So, thanks!
--Jon
Jon,
What some people (including me at one time) do to minimize the space taken up by a radial arm saw - and maximize its utility - is to place it along a wall and incorporate a chopsaw into the extension tables for the radial saw. Sorry I don't have any photos of my prior setup..
The nice thing about that arrangement is that you can use the radial saw for rough cutting (or fine cutting, if you can get the thing dialed in sufficiently), and then use the chopsaw or a sliding miter saw for the finer work on smaller stock.
The chopsaw or sliding miter saw is set into the tables in such a way that its surface is even with the extension tables. The two saws share a raised fence on the extension tables.
When I had this setup in my shop I had a small radial saw and a simple chopsaw. I finally decided though that buying a sliding miter saw would enable me to eliminate both tools and have all their capacity in one. The sliding miter saw cuts to 12 inches wide (wider, though not completely accurately, if you're willing to flip the stock over), and also makes compound miter cuts. That was as wide as the radial saw cut, and with better accuracy, versatility and ease-of-use (my opinion).
Zolton
If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
One aspect I haven't seen discussed is a comparison of the design and construction of the two saw types and the corresponding effect on the work being done on each. Most of the SCMSs center around a two-tube carriage, while better RASs have cast housings with a hefty cross-section. Some of the SCMS designs look pretty spindly when the blade/motor housing is at full extension.
Whoa! I never thought of that:
Is there any deflection at the outer reaches of the slider tubes? It seems it would show itself with heavier stock.
I've never seen that addressed anywhere.
--Jon
Sliding miter saw won't take Dado Blades. RAS will.Regards, Scooter "I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
I remember my father in law had a RAS. He liked it but that's all he had. He said it took the place of a table saw, miter saw, etc.
That's him speaking, not me. But he also cautioned about radical kickback. I think the blade turns toward the user and can really make boards fly. I used it a few times but I never felt safe with it.
I'll stick to the TS and CMS.
"But he also cautioned about radical kickback. I think the blade turns toward the user and can really make boards fly."Kickback is common if you are using the saw in rip mode which no one with a half a brain would. (Not fair really, but it's really unsafe and one of the largest reasons for RAS acitdents.)The risk of kickback in crosscut is not anymore of an issue on an RAS than on a sliding miter saw. The blades both turn the same way. AWAY from the user.Unless....He was using it with the blade turned around, with 3 phase power and was using it in reverse. Not a good technique either.Boiler
The blades on either type of saw turn away from the user( and toward the fence which is good), but the blades also want to lift the stock off of the table which can cause jamming and/or complete loss of control if it happens-not good.John White
Shop manager for FWW Magazine, 1998-2006
John,
I've seen advisements in past discussions regarding 0 degree or even negative degree toothed blades for these saws, implying that they don't lift the stock as badly and in some cases actually push the stock against the fence.
Could you take a moment to explain this a bit?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"negative degree toothed blades for these saws, implying that they don't lift the stock as badly"
Typical for RAS blades, but my understanding is that they reduce the tendency of the blade to pull the saw through the cut vs. letting the user pull the saw through the cut, as opposed to reducing lift.
BTW, while cross-cutting (all I use the RAS for anymore), I've never had the lifting problem John mentions in 35 yrs using my RAS. Holding the stock tight against the fence pretty much eliminates that. I have had the blade grab more than once while cutting "wacky wood", but that just results in the stock being jammed more tightly against the fence and stalling the motor.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
The lifting action is real , and it happens .
Several months back I was cutting a 1" thick X 28 wide and like 60" long Oak desk top , I cut half way then turned it around and cut the other way , well the first cut when out there about 15" grabbed the top and pulled it towards the blade .
Scared the heck out of me and I pulled a muscle in my upper back when I did it.
regards dusty
hey dusty,
were you cutting with the grain or across it?
eef
Crosscutting , I never rip on the RAS .
Mike,
My experience with a RAS pretty much mirrors yours. Whenever I've encountered problems it usually was the wood being cut or not lying flat on the table and against the fence because of a twist for example. Get almost through the cut and the stock moves just enough to pinch the blade.
I suppose ones method of cutting might also have something to do with it? Don't want to get into the pushing vs pulling debate. I asked the question simply because I've not experienced any lifting of the stock.
I don't know, maybe I've just been lucky all these years............. I do know that if the stock moves at all during a cut it can cause some uneasy moment(s) at best.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 5/5/2009 9:41 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
"I do know that if the stock moves at all during a cut it can cause some uneasy moment(s) at best."
"Uneasy", but mostly for the innocent bystanders who hear the "pop" and assume something terrible has happened when, in actuality, all that happened is that the saw tossed a scrap into the dust bin behind the saw, well away from the operator.
For example, I use my RAS often for making tenon shoulder cuts (after the cheeks are cut on the TS), with the piece against a stop to accurately position it for length. It is often the case that the offcut catches the blade and is ejected safely, albeit with some "enthusiasm", to the rear. This has caused more than one visitor to the shop to jump in surprise. I don't feel the least in danger though, since the saw naturally and enerringly directs these "kickbacks" safely away from me, and my hands are always well away from the "red zone".
The worst that has happened to me during crosscutting on the RAS is that the saw blade has bound, caused by some unnoticed twist in the piece, and climbed. However, since my saw is not some honkin' old DeWalt (I wish!), but a fairly tame old Craftsman, it simply jams into the wood, which immediately stops it dead. (Kinda like a SawStop, but without the cartridge! LOL) It does not launch a spinning blade into the operator, tearing through flesh and bone on its path. Frankly, even if it did lurch forward, only the workpiece would suffer, since my hands are placed such that the saw blade could never reach them.
I have a miter saw, and use it frequently. For example, when making a run of cab doors, I set up the miter saw with stops to cut rails and stiles to length, the TS to cut tenon cheeks, and the RAS to trim the shoulders -- kind of a production line. Every tool is set up and used to its best advantage for my system. But if I have to cut a small piece, I'll do it on the RAS every time, since it's much easier to make things safe by clamping, jigging, etc., so your fingers stay firmly anchored, unmoving, in a safe spot and, thus remaining attached to their proper moorings even if there is an unexpected event.
I suspect many of the folks who wave their arms about and cry "Danger Will Robinson" at the very mention of the RAS are simply not personally experienced in their proper use. Hey, it's a power tool - sure it's dangerous. But no more so than any other tool in the shop when used properly.
All that said, the most important thing is that the user is comfortable, confident and in control when using his/her own set of tools. My way isn't necessarily the best for anyone else but me.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Your experience parallels mine in so many ways. I have never experienced the lifting of the workpiece if supported correctly. I used to use it to rip as the instructions indicated. Never since I got a table saw.
I do think it shines for dadoing and does a respectable job of angling but never ripping. Used this way, I consider one of the safest tools that I have. I just had the bearing and switch replaced on the almost fifty year old beast.
Edited 5/8/2009 11:54 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Bob,Negative hook blades don't self feed which reduces the chances of their digging in and grabbing the stock. The shape of the teeth on the blades designed for RAS's and chop saws are also designed to be less aggressive over all, which makes catching less likely.John W.
John,
Thanks, I asked the question both for me and for anyone else who might be following the discussion.
Since I've had my RAS (ca 1974) I have used basically any blade I had without regard to tooth orientation. I don't recall any issues with these blades lifting the stock. Let's just say I have a healthy respect for it so I make sure the cut will be safe. I pretty much only use it for cutting stock to rough length so am not concerned with clean cuts.
On long blanks I'll sometimes insert a small shim (3/8") just to the left of the blade so the cutoff end has place to fall and not pinch the blade. I use a slow steady feed rate and pull the saw through the stock. I rarely push the saw.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi John ,
While it is true the negative hook tooth is smoother cutting and less aggressive ,imo , the chances of gauling or digging in may be reduced but by no means are the characteristics of a RAS changed or removed simply by using negative hooked blades .
regards dusty
I agree, it is just a small improvement, not a perfect solution.John W.
The RAS is sort of a multiple task machine. It can take dado blades, molding heads, rip and crosscut but only the very best heavy duty ones do any of these tasks well. An RAS has a tendency to self feed on crosscuts. A negative hook blade helps a lot but the saw can climb up and over a board. You always need to operate it with a stiff arm, locked straight at the elbow.
Sliders are really great saws. If you operate them correctly, you don't pull them forward like an RAS. You pull out the saw, then push it back. They are usually much finer in cutting than an RAS. Quick to set up for angles and bevels. You can also use them in chopping action. A slider has less capacity than most RAS saws but their accuracy and portability make them the leading choice. Shops that have sliders often relegate the RAS to cutting long stock to rough length. If you are cutting large, heavy materials, such as house framing, sliders can be taxed. The RAS has more power. For trim, furniture and cabinetry, sliders are hard to beat. I use a negative hook blade on my slider, too.
There isn't a lot of difference between the amount of space you need for a slider vs an RAS. Dust collection is easier on an RAS. There is enough room for a chute behind the blade. On most sliders, the dust hits the rear post a splatters every where. Since everything swings as you change angles and bevels on a slider, a rear chute can't be placed close to catch the dust. Many use a large hood behind which takes up additional space behind the saw. You, typically, need long support tables to both sides of either saw. With a slider, you can move it easily if you have 16 footers to cut. You don't want to be moving an RAS very much.
Having long term experience with both saws, I would opt for a slider without question. The few times a dado would be nice to have on an RAS can be done other ways with less complications. If I had to cut 4"x12" all day, it would have to be the RAS. 2x4s, 2x6s, 3/4 boards, moldings, etc. I'll take a slider.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Hammer,
That was a great response -- very well thought out. I appreciate it a great deal.
I'm tending toward a slider. If I can sell the RAS for an amount that might help offset the cost. Big if.
Might I ask what brand you use, or have used and prefer?
--Jon
Before I got a table saw my RAS was all I had. Armed with the manual and an old copy of Fine Woodworking I used my DeWalt and got mediocre results spending much time setting up and resetting for accurate cross cuts.
I avoided ripping and ripped only when I couldn't cross cut the pieces to size. I have had pieces of wood fly out of the saw and hurt me! not badly Thank G-d but badly enough to realize that there are safer ways to do this.
I have a light home shop RAS but there are industrial models that are far more accurate. Still if your not careful you can get badly hurt as the blade travels towards the operator and can climb up on the board moving to quick to see, and well you get the picture!
As for the functions that the SCMS doesn't have, if you have a table saw you won't miss them!
I can't remember the last time I carved a bowl with my RAS or used one of the other functions other than the molding head. than again if you have a router and the proper bit you don't need the molding head, and a router can be safer. Safety is a lot of times operator dependant but not always, there are many factors involved.
Don't over look safety!
Chaim
"safety is a lot of times operator dependent"
So true!! (Short story to follow)
At the old wood hobby shop on the Navy base at Whidbey Island they used to have a 16" Dewalt RAS. One day God's best idiot comes in and starts cross-cutting 2 X 12's for a book rack. He performs this operation by starting the cut and then turning loose of the saw to watch it ATTACK the lumber. He does this several times before the shop manager recognizes the situation, kills power to the saw and kicks the guy out. Fortunately, no one was injured (or killed). I did not see the incident but it was related to me be a very reliable source.
The last time I saw the old beast used it was taking a kerf just over 1/4" wide! The last time I saw it at all, it was for sale at the recycling center. I heard someone bought it for $50.
Some people should have to get a tattoo on their forehead; STAND WELL BACK, I'M DANGEROUSLY STUPID.
Regards,
Mack"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
That just...well kills me Ha Ha.
Seriously, I have an Xray of my hand!
In the X Ray you can clearly see the pneumatic staple that hit the bone and luckily bent. They needed the X Ray to determine which way the staple should be removed!
I wanted to print it up on a T-shirt to remind myself of the importance of, not only safety but of awareness of your surroundings and attention to detail!!!
heres the story in short:
I was climbing a ladder with the stapler already at the top waiting for me, when POP it went off!
It didn't hurt going in and it could just as well have been an eye or some one else for that matter! but to my extreme luck it only cost a trip to the hospital, Pain, Money, time, and minor surgery to cure.
I hope I learned my lesson!
Every time I touch a tool I think "What could be the outcome from carelessness in the use of this drill, hammer ect".
Chaim
"every time I touch a tool, I think----"
That is a VERY GOOD POLICY!!!! If every one did that the ER's could quit paying out over-time!!
Regards,
Mack"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
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