I’m sneaking over here from breaktime. I hope i can find someone who can give me some guidance as I am facing a very challenging situation.
I have a friend who owns and rents out a reconditioned pullman railroad car. It works sort of like an RV that people take out for 2 days or a week, or whatever. Some of the woodwork done on these cars is so incredible I can hardly imagine the cost.
In my case, my friend has original Pullman tables that get set up when it’s time to eat. I took one home to repair a latch connection. I am fairly sure its walnut, but then again, they were made almost 100 years ago…they’re original!! Unfortunately the tables are pretty beat up and some have some pretty egregious scratches.
Our discussion has been whether to refinish or build some new ones. I would build the new ones in a heartbeat…BUT the hardware is so unusual, (original Pullman), I wouldn’t even know where to begin to look for replacement hardware. I know someone will ask why not use the hardward off the old tables. I suggested that, but he said they were so valuable, he would rather keep them together, even if we don’t refinish.
So my question is: does any one have ANY idea where I might start looking for Pullman hardware? I’m guessing with the widespread readship of these forums, there might even be someone who may have already done what I am contemplating. In any case, I will look forward to what I might learn. thanks.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity — the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.” -President George W. Bush In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
Replies
Do you have any images of the original hardware?
I have no idea what is unique about Pullman hardware that makes it so unmistakable-- but then I'm British and American railway carriages aren't commonly seen around these parts, ha, ha. Images for me would be useful because Pullman hardware may have other names and the various bits may be quite common in other table furniture. Slainte.
richardjonesfurniture.com
Unless there is a Pullman Car Collector's Association or the like the chances that you will find a source for the hardware is very slim. You can always try E-bay, set up a search, and let it automatically check daily for new postings, given enough time you might get lucky and find somebody parting out a Pullman car..
As far as the finish on the table goes it is highly unlikely that it is factory original in any case, the table was probably refinished repeatedly when the car was in service. Pullman would not have allowed badly damaged tables to go unrepaired.
Why can't you remove the hardware from the old tables to use on new tables and store away the old tables? Would the original woodwork be damaged by removing the hardware?
Pullman cars and old boats aren't like antique furniture, at some point worn finishes are repaired.
Shop Manager for FWW Magazine, 1998 to 2007
You could try and contact the National Railway historical Sociaty. (NRHS). They are a group that is intersted in the preservation of actual railway equipment.
So they may have sources that most of us are not aware of. I know I am into trains (C&O) and I have nothing to help you with, but they may be able to point you in the correct direction. I know that the C&O HS has a few passanger cars that they keep up and a few they are planing on restoring but not sure what they do for parts.
Also thier are a lot of active chapters of the NRHS such as the Collis P Huntington Chapter in WV (they run a passanger excursion in the New River in October and have a few old cars and engines. Or my local chapter that I think is called the Blue Water chapter. So you could try them.
Or you could try and contact one of the museums like the B&O Museum in Baltimore or one of the museums in Pa.
Doug M
Thank you for your suggestions. If my friend wants to rebuild, we'll contact these agencies. I was not aware of the existence.
As to the old hardware, it's designed to fit into fittings in the wall, and they are VERY unique. He might want to remove them and put the pieces on a new set of tables, (not very hard to do, but they are all beautiful brass). The tables themselves are all enumerated witih serial numbers stamped in the underside!! So they were all accounted for at one time. I repaired one of the latches and it worked fine. So they are not hard to work on.
I will take some pics and post. The car is not back this week until friday but I may not get to it until next week at the earliest. Thanks again.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.” -President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
I absolutely agree, and if my friend wants, that is what I would suggest: taking the hardware off, building new tables and storing the old tables. It would be much easier for me to make new tables than to refinish existing ones. I am guessing it is a lacquer finish, maybe varnish. I will get some pics and post when I can get back to the car. Thanks.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.” -President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
There is a Pullman Project, found in a link provided by one of the readers. Pretty amazing research, in fact.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.” -President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
untreated,
if the hardware is valuable, really valuable, perhaps it could be reproduced by a very clever smithy, and maybe a railroad preservation society will spring for some or all of that cost. i sure hope you are fortunate and get to reproduce those tables! that could be a great commission.
eef
We've sort of discussed that. This is a working car, and gets a lot of use. He is not so interested in restoration as he is functioning. That being said, he wants the car to resemble its original form, but I doubt if he would want to spring for new castings, or even to take the time to track down anyone who might want to sponsor such a project. I can barely get him nailed down to talk about day to day things!! But it's worth pondering at the right time, to be sure! thanks.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.” -President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
It looks to me, going by all the responses since my original one, that Pullman hardware really is well known. Who'd a thunk it. I've never heard the expression, but I guess that what comes of living on the eastern side of the Atlantic, ha, ha. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Dear un-
Doug M has nailed the starting point. I used to build scale model railroad cars in detail in O, On3, HO and HOn3. The NRHS will be able to get you started networking with lots of people who restore old railroad passenger (and freight) rolling stock.
Finding exactly what you want may take some scrounging, but chances are someone is sitting on a bunch of them and someone else makes reproductions. They are out there, it will just take some digging.
Sounds like a great project.
Alan - planesaw
It IS a great project. I'm very excited about it. thanks for the input. I promise to post pics when I get them. Thanks.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.” -President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
Send pics now! Please? I'll bet you quite few folk will enjoy photos of the car and its details.
Alan - planesaw
I will, but I don't have them yet!! He took me to the car when I did not have my camera. I have to go back and will take pics when I do. It is a lot of fun to see what goes on in those cars....
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.” -President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
Saw you are in eastern PA. I am in central PA. What railroad is the car from? What type? Any history known?
Alan
It's been privately owned for 20 years. He has rebuilt various parts of it over the years. He is one of 4 certified AMTRAK inspectors who can pass cars for use on US rails. This car comes from the 30s as I recall. I only saw it for the first time last month. He keeps it over there in Whippany NJ. I live in the forest just north of E. STroudsburg. He is in Stroudsburg. He attaches to any train he wants going wherever he wants. he's coming back from VA today and headed out again tomorrow. This RR stuff is all new to me. He's probably shared more info with me, but as it didnt mean much to me, I didnt remember it all. Im learning, tho.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.” -President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
Ok a short history here.
Pullman was a company that ran sleeping cars on pretty much every railroad in the US. They supplied the cars and the porters to the railroads. The cars where part of a pool of cars that could be used on any railroad as needed. A lot of railroads had different times of the year as peak buisness. The Florida trains in the winter the trains to Michigan in the summer ect.
Pullman was HUGE. It built the cars and ran them. Some railroads had "custom" Pullmans that matched thier trains (the rest of the train cars where owned buy the railroad). So not all Pullmans where the same. That being said most Pullmans where painted (on the outside) Pullman Green.
Now on the inside of these cars they all pretty much had the same things as far as hardware (the way things worked) That way someone who worked on one pullman could work on another with out a lot of training.
Add in that Pullman had hundreds and hundreds of cars built over dozens of years and spread out over the whole country and you can see that this is a big pain in the butt to maintain and keep track of things. So Pullman standardized everything they could and numbered anything they could. This way they could keep track of how many of something they had and where it went. It also helped keep track of what an item was. As far as I know the numbers somehow tolled you what it was (not being a pullman expert I do not know how this worked but I have heard that they had a numbering system).
So in short thier was a TON of these cars made for years and years all of them in batches. So thier may be identical cars in existance (or at least used to be) but even if thier is not most likly the hardware is the same as that used on other pullmans. On thang that would be different if this was a car assigned to one railroad vs the general pool is that the finishes would have been per the railroad.
Now on top of that the cars where latter sold off (the Pullman company when bankrupt in the 60s) many to the railroads some to private owners. The railroads then may have handed them over to Amtrak and thus they car could have had any number of owners that may have modifed it.
Tracking this down is a hobby in and of itself.
Hope that gives you and idea of what you are dealing with. One things to ask is if the tables are trully of any value. As far as I know original parts of any railroad related item (cars or engines) are only valuble if they can not be replace. And thus are hard to get your hands on. IT is not like an old table that is valuble where a new duplicate is not. In most railroad cars and such most would not pay more for the original then they would for an exact duplicate that we just made. It is like rebuilding a house that way. Most peaople will not pay more for an old piece of molding then they would for the same molding made new (if it was available). It is the look that is inportant. So I would expect that in truth the tables are worth very little. Unless they have somethign speacial about it. Such as a map or something. It it is just wood then taking the hardware off and building a new table would not I expect effect the value. If there is value I would expect it is in the hardware (hard to get hardware vs wood).
But you may want to check on that. Just dont assume that this works like old furniture. It is not nessasarily valuble just because it is old.
Doug M
Wow, great background!! This coincides with passing comments I've heard over the years.
I agree with your take on the value of the "accessories". It makes me feel a little more confident that with a little work, we will be able to track down some fittings. I look forward to talking with my friend when he gets back!! Thanks.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.” -President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
I have been inside a huge complex of buildings in Berwick, PA where Pullman's were made. I understand they made tanks there during WWII. They make first class modular homes there today utilizing the rails in the concrete floors.
Alan - planesaw
I suggest contacting http://www.coloradorailroadmuseum.org/restoration
This is a non-profit organization that restores a bunch of these old cars. The shop is primarily worked by a number of volunteers. I'm sure they would be happy to give you some direction (for free)!
Tbagn,
You have warmed my heart. I could live at Colorado Railroad Museum. Spent many a day and hours there years ago when I lived out west.
Alan - planesaw
It is such a cool place. I, too, love the place and I fell in love with their workshop.
Did you volunteer there or just swing over after the free Coors brewery tour:0)
T-
Many years (decades!) ago I volunteered for a steam road in Arkansas. My mother's family is from the Ft. Collins area with relatives in Denver, Littleton, Boulder, Arvada, Brighton, Loveland and Ft. Collins. As such, when visiting relatives I always spent several days at the museum. Not as a volunteer, just drooling, dreaming, reading, and loving every minute of it.
Never did go through Coors since I can't stand the taste of beer. Thankfully.
At one point, our family had ridden every steam train west of the Mississippi and many east. But, there are probably some new tourist lines (short as they may be) that have popped up over the past 20-25 years.
Thanks for the memories,
Alan - planesaw
I have no idea whatsoever what the hardware that you're talking about looks like. But if this projects warrants top-notch reproductions, then take a sample over to Ball and Ball in Exton, PA. They will make brass castings to match old brass hardware. And they just might have what you're looking for since they have been at the top of this game for many years. Top quality and top dollar to go with it.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
Wow, that's a great idea. That's why I came to this forum!!
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.” -President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
This: http://www.railwaypreservation.com/
and this: http://www.railwaypreservation.com/Project%20Managers%20Guide%20to%20Railcar%20Restoration%208-09.pdf
could both be useful.
Try the link below or go to http://www.newberry.org/ and search for pullman company.
Author: Pullman Company. Chief Mechanical Officer.
Title: Parts catalogs and maintenance manuals, 1923-1961.
Physical Description: 4 cubic ft. (4 cartons)
Arrangement: Series organized in four categories: Pullman Company catalogs, non-Pullman Company catalogs, Pullman Company maintenance instructions and manuals, and non-Pullman Company maintenance instructions and manuals.
Pullman Company Catalog of Materials and Supplies (Sectional Catalog) arranged by "Section" and then chronologically.
Pullman Company maintenance instructions and manuals organized by type--general or railroad-- and then arranged alphabetically.
Subject (LCSH): Pullman cars --United States --Equipment and supplies --Catalogs.
Pullman cars --United States --Maintenance and repair --Handbooks, manuals, etc.
Pullman cars --United States --Parts --Catalogs.
Genre/Form: Catalogs.
Manuals.
Other Name: Pullman Company. Mechanical Dept. Maintenance manual.
Pullman Company. Operating Dept. Sectional catalog material and supplies.
More about this Title: Forms part of Subgroup No. 03 (Chief Mechanical Officer), Pullman Company Archives, Newberry Library.
Notes: Unpublished inventory available in the library. Folder level control.
Persistent link to this page: https://i-share.carli.illinois.edu/nby/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?DB=local&v1=1&BBRecID=121488
Institution: Newberry Library [non-circulating]
Location: Special Collections 4th floor
Call Number: Case Pullman 05/03/05 →Text me this call number
Copy: 1
Status: Available
wow...very cool. Amazing the information available on the internet. thanks!!
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.” -President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
Untreated,
Some of the posts here talk about the standardized cars, but Presidents and dignitaries and royalty had custom cars that were astoundingly beautiful and well appointed. I haven't seen any pictures of them since I started woodworking, but I'll be they would be a real source of inspiration and great examples of skill and craft.
--jonnieboy
I understand. When I first saw my friend's car, he took me into another Pullman hooked on to his that had had $1,000,000 worth of restoration/upgrade, mostly woodworking!!! It was stunningly beautiful. I'm sure it's not what you are talking about, but I was able to relate in a small way....
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.” -President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
unTreated,
Yep, those are exactly what I mean.
jonnieboy
You might also want to try the American Association of Private Railroad Car Owners:
http://www.aaprco.com/
I'm sure they could give you some pointers if you snoop around their sight.
Be sure to post some pics, there's a lot of us out here who love their trains!
I finally got into the car to get some pics at lunchtime today. Nothing dramatic, but it'll give you some flavor of what we are talking about. I'm at the office today, and cannot post the pics. But later tonight I'll upload them. he was VERY happy with my small repairs, and I think he is going to ask me to build 5 new tables and get the new fittings cast. That's where we stand now. Check back later tonite.
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
Dear un-
Fantastic! I'll look forward to seeing them.
Alan - planesaw
I just realized I need to shrink these files....
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.” -President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
Okay, so here's the first pass...lighting was a pain, but the color comes out pretty well.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.” -President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
Love it. It has been a number of years since I have ridden a train (City of New Orleans from Chicago to N.O.) but I rode them a number of times as a kid in the late 40s and early 50s.
Did you have plans or photos? Or were you copying some that remained?
Alan - planesaw
I just took these photos this morning.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.” -President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
This is what I am going to start with. I will be attempting to sand out the bottom to see how hard it would be to refinish these. Then, I think he wants me to build him 5 more. He likes the idea of casting the hardware at the Exton firm mentioned earlier in the thread. I like that idea as well..it allows him to keep these in tact.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.” -President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
This is the end of the car. Inlaid veneer with a plug where an oil lamp used to go!! He wants me to replace the center portion.
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.” -President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
I just ran in to your post hav you tryed asking anyone on Altamont Press http://www.altamontpress.com/
Or on Trainorders http://www.trainorders.com/
Trainorders you need to be a member to make a post.
Also there is Winter Rail coming up in Stockton Ca. which has a great Railrodania show/ swap meet which some body may have what you are looking for. http://www.winterail.com/
I do not wish to be rude, but signing your posts with a long quote, and then repeating it, is pretty annoying to other forum users and it takes up the same space as two responses, making other users have to scroll excessively to find the next posts.
this forum is difficult enough to navigate without further clutter.
Thanks
Complain to the people that implemented this abomination. I have seen that double quote on the ends of members messages that would never do it intentionally.
It would be nice if people didn't bring their political views to the forums, but I just had to respond with a couple of quotes from good ole George W...
"I've abandoned free market principles to save the free market system." --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Dec. 16, 2008
"One of the very difficult parts of the decision I made on the financial crisis was to use hardworking people's money to help prevent there to be a crisis." --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Jan. 12, 2009
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled