First, greetings to all Knotters old and new, but especially those who missed me. It’s good to have a friend or two. I have been a busy boy of late but now things have settled down so there is opportunity to indulge once more in the excellent conversations of Knots.
Just one little matter -I must deny any idea that I am a Lancastrian, despite having lived in the County since 1967. I was dragged up and formed on the banks of the Tyne and the beaches of South Shields foreshore, on a diet of whelks and peas puddin. The Geordie cannot be removed, even by 40 years consumption of soggy pies or puddings from the darkest pie-mills of Burnley. Ah still taalk queeor and much too rapidly for most Lancastrian folk, who are a bit slooooow, like, on the conversational front. 🙂 (It’s the stodge they puts in them pies).
***
Anyway, here is my question:
Having near finished a Greene and Greene desk, entirely via hand tools (photos as soon as the top is on, sometime next week) I have discovered the need for yet another strange tool of the manual kind – a rasp; or maybe a riffle; or should it be a file? I am confused by the plethora of “metal sandpaper on sticks” as these many things might be termed. (And let us not forgt the literal version of such a tool – the fid).
I have been using a half-round file of the middle grade as well as a few cheap miniature files of unknown grade, on the Greene and Greene desk’s many curved edges, handles and other bits. In all cases there has been the need to finish the initial curving with a spokeshave or even sandpaper, as the files have not left a smooth enough surface.
I have read about rasps, riffles and files but remain confused – not least because different manufacturers have different grades of all of these things, many of which seem to overlap.
Auriou rasps, for instance, come in many shapes, all of which can be had with a “grain” between 1 and 15. Whilst grade 1 looks like everyone else’s rasp (big pointy teeth) a 15 looks like the smoothest of smooth-cut file, albeit it has teeth rather than ridges………
Meanwhile, files seem to have but 3 grades – bastard, smooth and something in between…..?
For general cabinet-making – the shaping and smoothing of the curved pieces and edges of less rectilinear furniture (but not extensive carving of such items as those frightening ball & claw feet) – what do the experienced Knotters recommend?
I would like to buy the fine quality of Auriou but at around £50 each, it would not do to get too many that turn out to be redundant to me, even if they would have suited the makers of dolls house furniture or (at the other extreme) 10X lifesize ship figureheads.
Your recommendations and their reasons will be gratefully received – type (rasp, riffle or file) along with “grain” and typical usage, if possible.
Lataxe the returned.
Replies
Good subject. I am also looking forward to learning more about these tools that could probably contribute significantly to completion of my projects. I am sure there is a lot of expertise on the subject in the Knots community.
George
You don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard
Welcome back to the fray; a little time away from this is not a bad thing <G>..........
As for the rasps, are you familiar with the Nicholson "pattern maker's" rasps?
I am never without one, and I find them vastly superior to common wood rasps. Why? Because the the teeth are staggered, in a random pattern, which yields an agressive, but still relatively smooth cut.
Years ago, Nicholson made an entire line, but now only two remain -- the #49 and the #50. The former is somewhat coarser, and I find it more generally useful than the #50.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/productdetail.aspx?p=5188
The Auriou's are about double the price of these two Nicholson's, and I have been tempted, but have not so far purchased any. I have made do with a set of Italian riflers, but generally, I find them a bit too coarse for my taste, and that's why I look at the Auriou's.
There was a guy through here a couple of months ago who runs a online hand tool shop, and he was kind enough to give me some info on the relative coarseness of the Auriou's when compared with the the two Nicholson's. He carries the entire selection of Auriou's, which is quite extensive, as you know, and therefore, somewhat confusing.
I could dig out this info if it would be useful to you.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Edited 5/13/2007 12:25 pm by nikkiwood
Nikki,
The info from the online handtool chap you mention would be very welcome, if you could find a pointer.
I read about the Nicholson's in a couple of FWW articles concerning rasps and files. I did consider them, assuming they can be found in the UK. As you mention, though, there seem to be only 2 "grades" whilst the Auriou offer 15 (not to mention all sorts of weird shapes). Auriou also have random (and handcut) teeth which they claim give a smoother finish, as you desribe for the Nicholsons.
I have a catalogue from Classic Handtools (a UK handtool retailer) with a little bit of info about Auriou. Unfortunately it gives no real clues about why there are 15 grades of teeth or what they are typically used for.
The pricelist for these Aurious is pages long, as the permutation of rasp-shapes and teeth-grades comes to a huge number. As I am a man, I cannot make decisions so all that choice has just stopped the purchasing process in its tracks......
Lataxe, a ditherer.
Ah, I have missed your wit Master Lataxe! Welcome back!
The Auriou rasps--wonderful beasts. We use them near exclusively on the handles. In general the coarsest we use is a grain 9, the finest we use being a grain 13. From the grain 13 we use files of a moderate coarseness but we do finish with sandpaper. A grain 15 will be very smooth. With them all, one can reguate the coarseness by easing or applying more pressure with the surface bearing the results of being of a finer or coarser finish respectively.
I had opportunity over the last two days at the Portland, Oregon Lie-Nielsen Hand Tool Event [to which we were invited to paricipate--a great honor] to meet both Mike Hancock and Michel Auriou--both fine gentlemen. We broke bread following the Friday activities and consumed much wine while telling stories. A great cap to a busy day.
I would take the trouble to email Michel and explain what it is you desire to do with the rasps, including the desired finish to be left behind and he will happily recommend the rasps he believes you would need--which will be more than a couple I suspect. Well worth the price.
We also have and use the Nicholson rasps. Having found the #50 a bit better for our use and so that is all we purchase these days. The #49 is a little coarser than I desire.
As a point of reference, these are the sizes we use most: 6-175-13, AU-8-200-11, AU-4-200-11, & 6-200-10. These stock code being the numbers as used at The Best Things, which is where I purchase them most from. The first number being the sweep of the curve, the second being the length in mm, the last number being the grain. The higher first number, the amount of curve/sweep is the lower the number, the flatter the sweep and the higher number being a greater curve. Clear as mud?
The Aurious, being stitched [the teeth created] entirely by hand makes a difference over machine made rasps like the Nicholsons. [The edges of a Nicholson are stiched in a random pattern to fill-in the machine made portions using a drop hammer of sorts.] The Aurious will last longer than the Chinese-made and the inexpensive Austrian hand-sticthed rasps. The Aurious are made well like the vintage rasps and rifflers I have from Grobet and F. Dick.
Rifflers have unique shapes and curves which can get into areas which a rasp is not efficient in doing--or simply cannot. I use them as well, but more for carving details in furniture than the handles. Mine are all vintage Grobet and F. Dick and will eventually be replaced with my most oft used sizes/shapes with Auriou. Why replace them? Because they are on about their last legs having been sharpened [via acid] enough that they are about shot.
Here's a link to a picture of Michel Auriou hand sticthing a rasp the other day.http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/m_auriou_0001.jpg
Take care--and once again, glad to see you back...Mike
Mike,
As ever you are the source of experienced wisdom. Also, one cannot ignore the spookiness of my question not only hitting your knowledge base but doing so just after you meet with the Auriou maker and the major UK retailer of his wares -the very shop whose catalogue I have been dribblin' into!
Mr Handcock will be getting (another) email from me soon, then - as you suggest. It will be full of rasp questions. If and when he offers up enlightenment I'll post his reply here for all to read and wonder at.
Happily the ladywife has just had a little bonus and, in her generosity, promises to buy me an extra rasp, even though they do cost a week's pension (I exagerate for effect and to get sympathy or even a discount).
Meanwhile I am hoping you have done a deal with Mr Hancock so that he will flog your excellent saws in his shop. I have a little list but the saw-related entries on it have been suffering some slippage because of the rasp-fetish. How handy it would be to get Wenzloff saws locally, immediately and without suffering the machinations of the dreadful ParcelForce (so called).
Incidentally, the Wenzloff DT and tenon saws have performed faultlessly during my baptism of steel in building the Greene & Greene desk with handtools. No doubt some will say that it's the skill that counts and one should be able to cut good joints with a rusty old Stanley. However, I for one have been very grateful for use of tools that do as they're told and don't wander off or talk back like a teenager.
However, I must warn all would-be handtool users that they are sharp and dangerous things. Tablesaws are obviously dangerous and one minds one fingers with them, Hand tools seem friendly beasts - until you count up the many small cuts, abrasions, bruises and other body-dings they have imparted. Of course, they are not life threatening and only take very small bits of your fingers. I do dislike how they pounce on you unexpected-like. Worse than our cat and his yen for ambushing pasing dog-nose from the privet hedge!
But I digress.
Lataxe many-scar.
Ha--the only major woodworking related injuries I have encountered in my journey have been hand tools! Whether they be from rasps, saws or chisels. The worst of which was a long Sorby paring chisel.
Thank you for the kind words re the saws [makes me feel like a proud papa] and what little knowledge of rasping I posses.
Mr. Hancock and I did meet together for the purpose of discussing saws to go to his shop, Classic Hand Tools. Which is good as I have many more replies I am incredibly late at getting to that were generated by the review in Good Woodworking. The response was overwhelming. Getting ready for the show compounding the tardiness, but it has taken a great deal of time working through the 138 initial responses--some 23 hours worth of writing especially counting those which have come in since the initial response.
Meeting Michel A. and Mike H. has been on a list of people I have wanted to talk with in-person. A high point was the consumption of fine wines and food with them and Tom Lie-Nielsen, Brian Boggs, Deneb [from LN], Dave Keske [Blue Spruce Toolworks, Kevin Drake [Glenn-Drake, the makers of Titemark gauges etc.], John Economaki from Bridgecity Toolworks--and more.
Though still early yet, I have been invited to come to the UK for the purpose of discussing saws in 2008. So I hope we can meet at that time--'cause you too are on the list of people to meet.
Take care, Mikeoff to visit my mom for this prestigious day...
Tools for Wood is the place I had in mind, and Post #8 here has the link. They are in New York City, and I am curious if it would be cheaper to buy them here and have them shipped, rather than buy them from a European concern.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Mike,
Already the ladywife is choosing which bottles of her champagne-stash to hide and which to offer you on your visit. :-)
You sound like you had a real good time yattng with all those excellent tool makers. I am happy to say I have items from all of them, except Mr E (whose wares are a tad unknown and need more tests by the likes of Mr Cohen and Mr Schwartz before careful folk like moi will cough up). In particular, I have enjoyed the Blue Spruce DT chisels, which are the dog's bollox for making fine joints that grosser chisels may bodge (well it's me that bodges but I have to blame summick).
However, we can't have our toolmakers wining, dining or otherwise enjoyin' themselves when they should be sweating over our next saw-purchases! Back to the grindstone, young Michael; and down with that back-order list!!
Anyway, why was that Kiwistan planemaker not there too? I suppose he would have supped all the fine wines with none left for yous; and demanded beer chasers to boot.
Lataxe, who is rather a happy customer of these things, at bottom.
And right glad t'see yer back but, and as a life long believer in good King Richard, pleased to learn that you are not one of them.
Think ard lad, where did you go wrong, to regard ard earned brass as summat to be enjoyed and trifled wiv? A clean bit o'sharkskin or pikes jaw will fettle surfaces most reasonably in my experience.
< start disclaimer>
I don't have much experience with rasps, having recently acquired a few to try to learn how to use them on my own.
<end disclaimer>
Tools for Working Wood has information about the Auriou rasps both here:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=AU-CM.XX&Category_Code=N
and here:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=NEXT&StoreCode=toolstore&nextpage=/extra/AU-Info.html
I got 3 of the Auriou 8 inch Cabinet Maker's Rasps ( grain 11, grain 13, and grain 15). If you had cut a curved section of a chair arm with the bandsaw and wanted to soften the curve, round the edges, and make minor adjustments to the shape those 3 rasps seem like they would be a pretty good start. At this point, I'm not wishing I had dug deeper and added a grain 9 to my collection.
I don't think of these rasps as a replacement for sandpaper. The 11 is fairly aggressive at the scale I am working at. Even the 15 doesn't produce a finish ready surface (maybe it would in hands with more skill and a gentler touch).
--Whit
Whit,
Your pointers and the info they reveal is just what I needed - thank you very much indeed.
Amongst other important Auriou-related facts is this: "All the Auriou rasps leave a smooth surface, so the marginal improvement of a finer grain isn't as important as the extra speed you get with a coarser grain and longer blade". This tells me that I can get away (possibly) without employing any files, hopefully - a saving!
Thanks once more.
Lataxe
Ee lud, I thought you may have turned your toes up or something.
I think that the cognoscenti have already imparted some pearls of wisdom. I am not rasp-orientated, finding them too slow and a tool of last resort-nonetheless when called for ther ain't much to beat them-I talk only of my Nicholsons, not having had any other.
BUT,
"In all cases there has been the need to finish the initial curving with a spokeshave or even sandpaper, as the files have not left a smooth enough surface."---------My comment here is that if the curve is big enough to get a spokeshave onto then the rasp stays in the cupboard, being such a rough bastid.I suggest that the hand held card scraper can whack off material very fast without leaving great marks to be further worked away. (I am aware that you don't like these great tools but...).
I have done my share of Queen Anne's legs, and again the same comment would apply, to a lesser degree though as this is definitely a suitable application for the tool (that we talk of).
I await an imminent air strike.
philip,
I am in agreement with you. I have a Nicholson 8" half-round rasp, and a Kearney & Foot 10" bastard file that get occasional use, whenever nothing else will do. A set of rifflers I bought years ago never get pulled out, as I bought them on recommendation of some carving authority or another, "to clean up difficult areas"-- the rifflers, in my opinion, only make them more difficult to clean up! Those difficult areas are better addressed with , news flash, sharp carving tools, used with attention to grain direction, or cross grain, with a very light cut. Perhaps in sculptural work (I wouldn't know), there is a place for using a riffler, but for the furniture carving I do,(shells, acanthus, ball and claw, flame finials, etc) they are in no way necessary, and leave a surface that is exceedingly hard to prepare for finish.
I've seen several descriptions of working out Queen Anne legs that list a rasp and file as required tools, for working out the area at the turn of the toe and the ankle transition. I find that a sharp drawknife, used bevel-down, works this area quite well, and followed with a spokeshave where it will reach, and scraper, leaves a surface ready for final sanding and finish on all but the curliest of maple, with little ado.
Where I find a rasp/ file necessary, are those areas where nothing else will reach. The quick turn on the profile of a bracket foot, perhaps, or certain areas of a shepherd's crook type arm for a Queen Anne chair, right at the join of the two parts where the grain is strongly inclined in opposing directions. The rounding of the intersection of the rear stile/ crest rail joint on the back side of a Chippendale chair, or the same thing at the joint of the "vee" of a shieldback and the rear stile. I believe a saw handle or a plane's tote, or a pistol's grips, fit this category as well.
Regards,
Ray
Greetings Ray, as usual you have crystallised various aspects of the subject in a succinct manner.
No doubt if it possible to cut rather than abrade or file the result is always superior-in fact those shiney facets on a carving left by the sharp edge are appealing.
Another tool that may be of interest in combination with rasping is the panel beaters body file- I have found these to work very well on wood, especially if they are virginal (never bitten metal), and the good thing about the flat ones is that they are flexible, having the facility to be set in shallow concave or convex positions.When used as in draw filing they leave a smooth surface, but can also remove material fast. I am wandering if others have tried them.
Yeah, my set of riffler files have hardly eaten wood-they have seen more carbon and aluminium from various cylinder head ports that have been come under attack.Philip Marcou
Ray,
You make some weird stufff alright. No wonder you can carve.
I am an oaf with a carving chisel, not even able to successfully carve a few simple indents into the bottom of me G & G legs, despite 8 tries on the offcuts. I am convinced that riffling is for me, as it is requires only the application of one elbow and perhaps a flick of the wrist.
Meanwhile I stare in wonderment at your art and ponder if evolution has left me behind somehow.
Lataxe, two cack-hands rampant.
Lataxe, old top,
It is a pleasure to see your name writ on this forum again. I'm glad you've again emerged from your bolthole.
It was once told to me, that, "Some of us are put here to carve out our niche in life; the rest are just a bunch of chiselers." It seems to me that it's better to be thought a riffler than just another chiseler. "You riffler!"... sounds bohemian, and just a little rakish, don't you think?
Ray
Philip,
No one should have to shave a queen's legs as now we are all democrats or even republicans, so the aristocracy should depilate themselves. Of course, if you enjoy that sort of thing in lieau of proper lurv.......
I quite agree that a sharp spokeshave (I have 3 of the Veritas) obviate the need for more savage tools. Only today I have shaved the roundovers on all the G & G desk top edges, resulting in that pleasant home-made look not available from the roundover cutter mounted in Mr Router.
Your card-scraper fetish is well understood but I like mine mounted in something with handles. I believe Mr Lee now offers such things in a spokeshave dress (ie three scrapers of various radii). My cheque book is flapping open again.
Of course, in these less rectilinear styles of cabinet I have taken to, there are nooks and also crannies. I have developed a desire to get in there with a riffler. Only the French understand, it seems.
Lataxe, who has European traits or even tendencies.
Sir,
I've found using a Japanese Saw Rasp works very well removing stock at the start of a project. With the course/fine tooth combo of this tool, you can remove wood quickly.
I then use a #49 after as the Saw Rasp isn't for small tight areas.
I hope this can help you!
Vance
Vance,
I have heard a little of these Japanese saw rasps - several saw blades bound together to form a kind of file?
More info or a pointer would be welcome.
Lataxe the curious.
Sir,
Check out the Japanwoodworker.com web site.
Yes this type of rasp uses bandsaw blades.(with a course set on one side and a finer set on the other)
These rasps are shaped somewhat like a Kayak, with the blades riveted at the ends to hold them together.
At around $20.00 you can't not afford to try one out!
Vance
I've been using Nicholson's patternmaker's rasps for years and I like them. One issue worth raising is; "Is it smart to spend so much money on a tool you can't sharpen?" There are firms who "sharpen" files. I think its an acid bath sort of process. I don't know if or how it works for rasps. My sense is that my Nicholson rasps, while not as sharp as they were, have lasted at least 5 years of regular or even heavy use.
In addition to the Nicholson, I have a "cabinet file"
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2432
that I really love. It is coarser than a metal worker's file. I use it frequently and it has gotten dull. I believe it is a good canidate for a file sharpening service (boggs tool).
I also use metal workers files quite a bit. No reason why you can't use a coarse metal file on wood.
If I were you, I'd skip the 50 quid rasps in favor of a few 20 quid models. I think there's a learning curve with these things. I'd buy a coarse rat tail metal workers file, that cabinet file above, and either Nicholson patternmaker's rasp. Then if you feel you need something else, buy the French files. I'm sure the hand cut teeth are great. But we are talking about a rasp here. I'm sure you can buy a hammer for 50 quid as well and if you can't I have one to sell.
Adam
I bought my patternmaker's rasps for approx $40. I would think buying any tool in the US would be a good idea for you since the pound is almost $2, isn't it? So you should be able to buy one of these for 20 quid. This is also a great time to visit the US. A pint in one of our pubs would only set you back 2 pounds. What's a pint of Boddington's go for in England? L5? There's a nice college bar near Colonial Williamsburg with Boddington's on tap.
Adam,
I am a pensioner and have money to burn, before the children get it. £50 rasps are but another step to dying intestate.
As to wearing out a rasp - not likely in my case as I have 35 other hobbies, pastimes, addictions, vices and other activities that allow the rasps to rest for sustained periods of time.
Thank you for the offer of the hammer but it would have to be a Very Special One made by an Excellent Toolmaker. I can't recall that entry on your digital certificate but perhaps you have read the book on hammer making and been practising hard in a corner somewhere? Also, I have made mallets of my own so hammers might be next (unlike rasps,which I am loathe to learn the stitching of).
I have been looking at some Nicholson metalworkers files now sold by Lee Valley, which they claim have a new-fangled cut that also provides a very smooth finish on wood.......?
Lataxe, a profligate tool-addict.
My dear Lataxe,
First of all, welcome back! It's quite pleasant to see your wit and wisdom in action again.
For general (rough) shaping, the Nicholson #49 and #50 get the most use. They work well for removing lots of wood fast, and leave a reasonably smooth surface (especially the #50, with a light touch). Another file that I sometimes use is a curved tooth file (a "flat Babbit" file -- http://www.cooperhandtools.com/brands/nicholson_files/index.cfm?model_list=1&att_id=NFI005&att1=Files&att2=Flat%20Babbit); it leaves a remarkably smooth finish on wood, given the relative coarseness of the teeth.
The finer grades of the Auriou rasps leave a very nice surface, but even grade 15 still needs a brush or two with sandpaper to be ready-to-finish (that may be technique on my part....).
For files, I have the usual assortment of mill bastard, second cut, etc files. Again, they all leave a reasonably smooth surface, but not ready-to-finish.
To get a more or less ready-to-finish surface, I sometimes use one of the files from a set of die sinkers files. They leave a very smooth finish (using a very light touch), but they are very slow cutting and rather tedious to use, especially if there is a lot of surface area to file: the dimensions of the filing portion of them are about ¼" wide by about 5/8" or ¾" long.
I hope that this will be of some use to you.
Again, welcome back!
.
Tschüß!
James
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
James,
Greetings from a fellowTA. Its good to be back.
You are disappointing me with that talk about even a No 15 grain Auriou not leaving a fine finish. I am hoping to avoid files on top of rasps.
Tell me more of that slow, fine one you mentioned.
Lataxe
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