I recently purchased a Norris of London coffin sided smoother. Great iron, tight mouth, crappy stuffing(beech?) I’m more interested in a user than a collectors item, so I’d like to re-stuff it, but I need some serious direction in this matter. FWW Army…please rescue me!
P.S. This is a pre-war A-5(?)
Replies
Sean
With a bit of luck you'll get responses from people who have tried this. It's something I've wondered about trying myself, and have followed a few sales on the Bay, but always bailed out when the costs got too high!
Should be fairly simple. If it's all steel, then the peened rods that hold the infill in place may not be visible, so you'll have to reveal them when you strip out the infill. I guess you'll have to remove the wood carefully to avoid damaging the metal, and to avoid distorting or displacing the sides relative to the sole.
Does it have an adjuster?
If you measure what's there carefully (and maybe trace outlines so that you can reproduce it) and take a few photos, you should be just fine.
What are you going to infill it with?
Malcolm
Edited 3/11/2006 3:42 pm ET by Malcolm
Malcolm,
Thanks for your interest. It has an adjuster and I have also found the peened pins, although my (weak) attemps to push them through have failed for fear of causing damage. I think the original stuffing was beech, so I think thats what I'll use, although walnut is very tempting. I don't know how to attach a pic on this forum, so I'll shoot them directly to you. Thanks again Malcolm.
Sean
Sean
If you are happy to replace the pins (I dont know of an alternative) accureately locate the centre of the pin with a punch and measure the thickness of the sides.
Drill a hole about 1/3 deeper than the sides are thick with a drill that is a fair bit smaller than the pin. Make an anvil from HARD wood with a hole in it about 1/2" deep and a little bigger than the pin diameter.
Using a pin punch with plenty of slack into the now hollow pin, tap out the pin into the hole in your anvil. If it won't move easily, ream your hole a bit and try again. What should hapen is that the peined flair will collapse into the centre around the punch (hence the need for slack)
The max size of you hole might need some assumptions, such as the countersink for peining was at 45* and 1/3 depth in the wall. Be aware that your chances of acureattly driling the centre of the pin are pretty small so do be too adventurous with the drill.
There is a chance that the pin will be firmly attached to the wood and will not knock out easily until the wood has been removed. Dont pound it - I have seen the result of that on a cast infil shoulder plane. If you have removed the wood, Support the side with a firmly fixed, pretty snug fork clamped to the bench perhaps 1" thick.
Sean, Patto has it spot on. If you are shy of that route you could chisel/split away the existing wood and cut the most accessible pin near to the sides on the inside, then use an angle grinder to grind the pin flush -it will probably just nudge out then, especially if you rotated it before grinding flush. At least you can then see what amount of peining has taken place, if not do them all like that.
Haven't got a small angle grinder? Shame on you-a very useful item (;)(;)
Give us a follow up.Philip Marcou
Looks like Malcolm was typing at the same time!
Edited 3/12/2006 11:48 pm by philip
Edit! Oops, didn't read the post above first - sorry, doubled up!
Is it dovetailed?
If not, you should be able to punch the peened rods out. You should drill out the centre of the rod on one side (carefully, and right in the middle) - as near to the full diameter as you can get, then gently bang it though. You may have to remove the beech first, because there may be glue in there as well, and you risk distorting the carcase when punching the pin through.
If it is, you will want to be a bit less vigorous, just in case you dislodge the joints.
Another approach, and probably what I'd do (unless you get better-informed advice) is to strip out the wood first. Then you'll be able to see what you're facing, and may also be able to chop off the pins and push the stubs out from the inside.
Is the lever cap peened in place? That may be a bit more of a conservation challenge.
If you're not going to reproduce the original, but want something a bit nicer, consider black walnut, or one of the denser tropicals (at one extreme, ebony, at the other end one of the commoner feature woods like cocobolo) - considering the work you'll be doing, the nicer wood is worth the cost. There is also a view, held by some conservation professionals, that new work should be obviously new, so using another hardwood is not too bad!
Cheers
Malcolm
http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Edited 3/12/2006 11:44 pm ET by Malcolm
Got your photos, and when I replied the message was bounced back. This is what i tried to say:
Hi SeanDoesn't look too bad in the pictures!The metal does look in good condition. Well worth your time. What have you decided to do?The advice from the other guys on knots is all sound. I guess the first principle is to go carefully, not lay into the plane too hard, and you should be fine.There are other places you might look for advice, and as I come across them in the next few days I'll forward them to you.CheersMalcolm
http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Edited 3/13/2006 5:11 am ET by Malcolm
There are several methods you can use. The "knock through" or "drill and knock through" method as suggested by Malcolm and Patto works well if you can find all of the pinsIf you're replacing the infill then a quick and easy way is to just make cuts with a hacksaw and split the wood out with a chisel as suggested by Malcolm and Philip (use a cheaper chisel for this. No need to be "clean" here). A sharp chisel will make short work of beech. This is also a "safe" method for cast infill planes by the way.Not having seen the plane in question would it be easier to just replace the affected parts of the infill? It's much quicker to glue a bun capping on and replace a broken handle, than do a major retrofit.
Handplane Central
Edited 3/13/2006 10:37 am ET by C.R. Miller
Since you have the pictures and know how to put them in a post Malcom. How about throwing them up so we can have a look too.
I wish I could - I'll forward them to Philp and ask him - is that OK Sean?
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
If someone can figure out how to post a pic...fire away Malcolm. Thanks all for the input, it all seems like sound advice, a bit daunting perhaps, given the going rates for Norris planes these days. I'd hate to make a mess of it. I'll proceed with caution and let you know how it goes.
OK, I'll forward the photos to Philip Marcou and ask him nicely if he'll ablige!
And hey, don't let the tool (or the advice) intimidate you!
What's the worse that can happen!
You'll be rescuing a nice bit of metal, making something that you feel pleased about, adding value to the collective resource ... don't be intimidated.
There's a Kiwi expression, in Maori, Kia Kaha! (have I got that right, Kiwis?) which translates as 'be strong!'
Kia kaha! Sean
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Here they are!Philip Marcou
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You know, Sean, if that were mine, and it is as it looks in those pictures (wood without cracks etc), I would rather clean up that wood, sand it out nicely , re stain if it is beech and re-polish-then it remains original and their is no loss of life if things go wrong when trying to replace the wood. Then you could concentrate on cleaning up the metals. What is the condition of the threads on the sdjuster?
I'm in total agreement with Philip. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that woodwork that I can see - except for the fact that the screw for the front bun is missing and a lot of the staining/finish is gone.If it was all cracked up and broken off in places then i'd say go for it, but otherwise just restore what's there if you're not happy with it. I personally wouldn't worry about a restore myself if it were my plane (apart from replacing the screw) but I've done it for various collectors.Handplane Central
Look at the front bun again. It has an awful crack. Actually it is in 2 pieces. Also, I looked at the pictures and they don't tell the whole story. The pics make the plane look halfway decent.
Is it an actual crack or a clean break? Some of the front buns were in two parts, making them easier and quicker to make by not having to undercut the overfill. The weirdest example of this that I've found on a Norris plane was a rosewood infill with a beech cap. Now while a beach or mahogany infill with a rosewood cap is not that unheard of with some infills (especially Spiers), having it done the opposite way is very odd. I put it down to someone originally forgetting that the plane was supposed to be a cheaper model and started stuffing it before then realizing that it was a cheaper model.As all of the infill was finished off with a dark stain the original owner would be none the wiser unless it wore away. Even then they probably would've said "Hey cool! Rosewood!" After all, who's gonna argue with that?Having said that though most of the cheaper Norris planes have a more angular and tapered front bun, but its not always the case. Just when you think you've seen it all there's always something new cropping up.Personally I still wouldn't touch it as far as replacing the infill. At the most I would clean it up, fill any holes or dings that you weren't happy with, re-set any cracked parts and replace any broken off pieces.Handplane Central
You may find this helpful and/or inspirational.
http://woodcentral.com.ldh0138.uslec.net/cgi-bin/archives_handtools.pl?read=40891
BugBear
Sean, if the pins are not identifiable, here's a trick I've used on padlocks
Hold the tool in one hand and using a wood mallet ,rap the side near the pin's area. The knock usually causes the pin to shrink a tiny bit and will ,(when observed in a glancing light) reveal itself.
The reason you have trouble 'drifting' the pin out, may be that the pin hole is very slightly countersunk. Also you may not have positioned the other side of the pin over a 'donut'(of brass or steel)which should have a larger hole.
To defeat the peened over pin captured in the countersink, first find the pin's center, prickpunch and centrpunch for a drill that is of a smaller diameter.
Drill into the pin about 1/4 " then using a countersink, just 'kiss' the pin to make a shallow chamfer. Now, drive the pin out over a sturdy block of metal with a hole .(I use a 1/2" drive socket. Use a flat driftpunch not a pointed tool! Steinmetz
Edited 3/17/2006 8:48 pm ET by Steinmetz
Sean, you might want to take a look at this:
Link to small Norris show and tell
View Image
I agree with those who think the wood is fine. If that top piece is loose, you could clean it up and Gorilla glue it down. I'd replace the screw head, gluing it in as an unattached cosmetic plug. It's my opinion that the screws are the major cause of the cracks and splits in the first place.
I'm curious why you call your plane a "pre-war" when it looks to be a late model post-war to me.
In rehabing old planes less is usually more. Since you're after a good user spend your time tuning and using.
Good luck, Bob (in Oregon)
Bob,
You probably know alot more than me on the subject of Norris planes. I was guessing. Hence the question mark.
On the subject of "to stuff or not to stuff"
1. The front bun is firewood at best. Gorilla glue won't fix it to my liking. Someone already tried that.
2. The tote could be cleaned up I suppose, but the mouth isn't as tight as I would like. I'm assuming by re-stuffing it, I would have control over the mouth, which is something
3. I really want to try, for my own satisfaction (or sanity) I can't part with the $750+ for one in pristine condition, so I would like to make my own.
A sincere thanks to everyone for all of their input, Sean
Sean, sounds like you have your mind made up to replace the bun. Just doing that is a challenge. Getting a seamless fit around an over-stuffed bun isn't a trivial pursuit. Hope you take plenty of pictures and share what you learn with the rest of us. I do wish you the best of luck.Oh.Be sure to reconsider the logic of your statement:..."but the mouth isn't as tight as I would like. I'm assuming by re-stuffing it, I would have control over the mouth"...Here I take it you're speaking of making a new rear infill and tote in such a manner that the bed will extend anteriorly and thus have an effect similar to placing a shim under the plane blade in order to close the mouth. With the blade assembly out and the lever cap pressed all the way down, if you take a look down into the throat, you'll see that the bottom of the bed is metal. The metal consists of the sole and a thick piece of steel peened on top of it. If you advance the wooden infill forward without also advancing the metal portion of the bed, you will in effect produce a sort of diving board arrangement for the plane iron. The blade will loose its support near the mouth. The blade will dive, vibrate and chatter. The plane will be rendered non-functional. It would be infinitely wiser to either use a shim to close the mouth or to get a blade made of custom thickness.As I say, good luck Sean. Bob
Bob-
I see what you mean about closing the mouth. Big oops on my part.
I removed the rear tote intact, and after cleaning it up, I exposed some wonderfully grained walnut. That said, I am going to clean up and refinish the tote and remake the bun.
On the subject of refinishing, do you have any input on how duplicate the original dark finish?
Thanks for your help
Sean
Experiment a bit with different stains until you get the desired effect. I often make a "bath" of stain and soak the wood in it for a short time, before hanging it up and wiping away the excess drips. I also do a similar step for finishes (on occasion). Of course with solid wood it's a little difficult to hang so you need to be creative. For instance you can drill a small hole in the base (and out of site) and hang it up with a wire hook.While I don't stain/finish a lot of planes in this way I have made several hundred Stanley type handles and knobs in this manner using oak, cherry, maple and other "blonde" woods.
Handplane Central
Good advise CR
By the way, thanks for the link; Malcolme and Phillip were some of the first responders to my question, so it was nice to read a bit about them. I had no idea they were planemakers.
My project is underway. If I can figure out how to post a pic, I'll throw them up for all to see (and scrutinize)
Sean, take a look at the photos on the Ebay item below. This was billed as a mint late model A5 and the pictures of the finish are as good as I've seen on the web. I have a couple worn A5s to study as well. The finish is like paint; it is opaque. You see no grain or pores. In my opinion it is a dilute paint and not stain (no matter how dark or thick) with clear finish above a stain. I think the obvious intent was to conceal that this was beech and not rosewood.
If I wanted to try to duplicate the look, I'd mix my own alkyd "paint" from Galkyd and oil colors. I'd start with umber and blend in tiny amounts of red, green and blue as needed to shift the hue around until I had something I was satisfied with.
Another approach would be to use the darkest shades of Polyshades to mix up a color match. The actual brown is a complex blend I think. The problem with this approach is I don't know how many layers would be necessary to make it actually opaque.
The other part of the "look" is that the wood needs to be well sanded and filled. Then seal it with shellac. Sand. Seal again. Then plan to put multiple coats down with a soft artist's brush. Let dry till hard (for galkyd about a day). Sand off nibs and brush marks. Recoat. Put down a large number of coats in this fashion. Then let it dry a couple of weeks. Then "scary sharp" it using a mineral oil lubricant...that is start with a grit like 200 and progress to finer and finer grit. End with 2000 grit. This is wet sanding, like spit polishing a shoe.
Link to fresh Ebay Norris
View Image
Link to aMinwax Polyshades
Link to Galkyd
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