Hello, all. I used to check out this forum a lot, but then it changed and got too complicated. Anyway, I wonder if you can help me–I wonder where I can get old fashioned “marine” or “spar” varnish; the kind that never gets real hard so it moves with changes in the wood it’s on? Saw a quart for $35 in Woodcraft catalog, but am reluctant to pay that much, plus I need it for a PT sculpture that must be ready by June 1st! Is what Helmsman sells as spar urethane the same stuff? Could I mix BLO in with urethane or varithane to get the same effect?
It’s a long story, but I am following advice of someone on Breaktime and am painting the thing with white primer, followed by metallic gold and then finally coated with oil-based clear gloss varnish into which artist’s alizarin crimson has been added, so it gives a clear red glasslike finish over the metallic. Probably a recipe for disaster, but I liked how the model looked and am now commited (the jury accepted the model and there can be no changes made to the full scale). They told us the parts were to be made of marine plywood, but then gave me parts made of PT plywood. Anyway, I know that the PT (which was sopping wet when they gave it to me in April) will be moving alot, so wanted something other than just inflexible poly. It’s been raining every day for the past week or so, so I haven’t been able to paint it yet. (Sculpture is in my unheated garage right now.)
Replies
You can find true spar varnish at marine supply houses (still used pretty frequently on boats), and some hardware and home centers (particularly those near the shore).
You can also order it on line:
http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/behspar.htm
(~$20/qt)
or
http://www.hbehlen.com/products.asp
Good luck with your project,
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Thanks for the reply and web site--I will see if I can get it or similar product locally and if not, order it.
These gents sell spar varnish, tho it's not listed on their website.
http://www.kirbypaint.com/products/
Helmsman is not a true spar varnish, it's a poly. I don't know where you are located, but as has already been noted, a marine supply operaton should have what you want. Waste Marine (AKA West Marine) are all over the place, there's probably one near you.
Thanks for the reply and web site--I will see if I can get it or similar product locally and if not, order it. Thanks for letting me know about Helmsman--I suspected as much. May have to drive into Bay City (on the Saginaw Bay)--Gougeon Bros are there.
Edited 5/19/2006 6:52 am ET by Danno
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/search.do?freeText=varnish&page=GRID&history=
Thanks for the web site--I will see if I can get it or similar product locally and if not, order it.
The big question is whether this will live in the sun, or whether it will be shaded. If in the sun you need true marine spar. The Behlen's would likely be OK from as far as flexibility, but not from the UV protection point of view--at least compared to the "good stuff". And "spar urethane" is an oxymoron since urethane resin--in a single part version, is inherently vulnerable to UV light. The fact that you are putting the varnish over pigmented primer will help, since much of the deterioration from the sun works by damaging the wood just under the varnish.
Epifanes Clear Gloss is excellent, though a bit dark. Often cited as being the best. Very close behind are Pettitt ZSpar Captain's and Interlux Schooner. Check out Defender www.defender.com for good prices. Still, you will have to pay $25 per quart at least for respectable spar varnish. As far as I know, there are no cheap spar varnishes that have done respectably in serious testing (from Practical Sailor magazine, the Consumer Reports of boating.)
I am concerned about finishing over wet PT however. Finishes don't do well over moist wood, and significantly slow (though not completely) the drying process. As dry as you can get this before finishing will help.
Thanks for the reply. I share your concerns with various finishes over a not-so-great substrate, but I have to do it--we must do exactly what we did on the model (I like how we have to, but they changed their end of it by giving us PT. They never signed a contract stating what the blocks would be made of--just showed us the sample block and it was marine plywood). Maybe my finish wouldn't work on good plywood either. Puttin a lot of trust in a guy from Breaktime who said he used those finishes before and really worked well.
Looked killer on the model, but the model was made of blocks of maple and stood about a foot tall and was indoors. The full scale sculpture will be almost 8' tall and will be in a square between two public buildings--no shade. We are responsible for taking care of it between June 3 when the show opens and September 7, when the works will be auctioned off. I'll just hope for the best!
Danno,
I'd recommend doing whatever you end up using on a sample first. You are talking about using three different products-paint primer, metallic gold (is that metallic paint or leaf) and then varnish, which you are adulterating with painter's color. Over wet plywood. Out in the weather. Will they stick to each other, or to the surface itself? Time will tell. Will you be responsible for maintaining this thing after it is placed? Making it good for how long?
Regards,
Ray Pine
I replied to Steve and that reply also answers some of your questions.
The real monkey wrench in the whole process was the lead agency giving us artists the PT plywood instead of marine plywood. I've had the blocks in the house drying for a month and a half. Been too cold and rainy out to paint--even in the garage. (I had to move it to the garage while I could still get it through doors!)
Oh, the coat over the primer will just be gold spray paint--not leaf.
They told us two days ago that the sculptures should be built on a base of plywood with a frame of 2x4's so they can set it over pre-cast concrete slabs and screw through the 2x4's into the sides of the concrete slabs. Since I had built my base like a deck, with joists and 5/4 deck boards, I had to add a 2x4 frame under it. Lots of us weren't too happy to have this sprung on us at the last minute!
Everyone asks why I just didn't paint it with house paint, but I don't know that house paint would be any better. The whole reason I decided to do it the way I am is because I complained on Breaktime about a decoartive bridge I built (from PT) and how the Red Devil enamel and even the white Kilz primer just sort of washed right off after a year. I used to let PT age at least a summer, but read that oh, no, totally unnecessary. Now I read on a web site by a PT manufacturer that you jsut have to let it dry a couple weeks. Well, we'll see. So far the primer hasn't peeled off the two blocks I tried it on! This project may become a career!
[I sold a sculpture at an auction to raise money for the local hospital and the woman who bought it called me and asked if it was supposed to move. I ended up going to her house to repair it! While I was there, she showed me another sculpture (of wood, of a dancer, done by a friend of mine) that she had broken the foot off of and actually lost a piece if the wood, and asked if I'd fix that! (Nick told me later he went to her house too and fixed it--had to fill in with putty.) Artists who make house calls!She also showed me a sculpture in wood of Sandpipers and how the grandkids had broken a leg on one while "playing with it!" I wanted to tell her, "Lady, it's a work of flippin' art, not a toy!" This is what we arteests must deal with! I can about imagine Gaughan or Van Gogh visiting someone's house to repair a work of art!]
Edited 5/19/2006 12:00 pm ET by Danno
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